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Russia and India to Create Gen. 5 Fighter

Interesting point....so if the Russians can't create avionics then India will? Or will it go down the MKI route and allow western companies to integrate avionics into their brand new frontline fighter?

Why not? I'm sure india would demand customisation as an option. after all, we are funding the project. we have the right to ask for customisation.

Hmmmmmm I doubt it......and if the DRDO is going to be involved then the fighter would probably enter service in 2200AD

Very funny keysersoze:tsk:.

DRDO has its problems no doubt, but they didnt delay MKI avionics, so i dont see why they should delay PAKFA avionics.

Now if they do delay, we'll just have to put more French and Israeli avionics in.
 
Look, all jokes aside, the Russians are no longer all about money. They are trying to re-assert themselves in the world. This of course requires a credible military force. They may not want their top line aircraft to be exposed to potential opponents.

The SU-30 was a known quantity. \and the Russians were in a different place politically then.
 
Stop wishing. The subs, the frigates, the aircrafts, all of them are top notch. Heck those Su-30 are better than what Russians supplied to you guys. Russia gives retired scrap aircraft carrier to India doesn't mean anything. It is a weak argument.

SU-30 MKK better than SU-30MKI? Lets not discuss it further. Not worth doing it. Lets me give one tit bit. Chinese SU are primary A2G while SU-30MKI are multi role. Says it all.
And if Russia was to supply a scrap aircraft carrier, the budget would not have been over shot nor would there been a delay.



There are parts of avionics that PAF wants, not the whole thing. I dont know much about avionics (which parts are being looked for) but that doesn't necessarily means they are inferior to Russians in avionics or EW field. PAF prefers top notch stuff (i.e. radar, weapons integration, EW, etc) for everything. India is starting to buy top notch stuff from Israel, French.. what does it say about Russia? They must be behind in this field too. Again a weak argument.

Yes Russia was always behind in terms of avonics with respect to the west nation.There airframe was always top notch.

Every air-force wants top notch stuff. You dont spend 50% of the development cost and search around again for different source for avonics.
The details given by the PAF chief indicates other than the airframe(plus may be engine) nothing is been considered Chinese in the long term. SD-10 not satisfied,radar would be changed etc etc...
Chinese's most dependent client does not itself believe in Chinese avonics..says it all isn't it.
 
Interesting point....so if the Russians can't create avionics then India will? Or will it go down the MKI route and allow western companies to integrate avionics into their brand new frontline fighter?

By the reports that have come out India is expecting the aircraft in 2015.
Most probably PAK-FA block-2.
By having 50% development budget from India,it gets the full rights to customize as it suits.

The reports suggest that the prototype coming out in 2009 does not meet the requirements of IAF.Hence in more likely or not it will be a highly MKI' sed PAKFA much higher than SU-30MKI,specially around the avonics,ecm & radar.

This deal saves India the effort it has spend on building up a twin engine stealth aircraft and leave the airframe building to the Russian and India concentrates on avonics.
 
The details given by the PAF chief indicates other than the airframe(plus may be engine) nothing is been considered Chinese in the long term. SD-10 not satisfied,radar would be changed etc etc...
Chinese's most dependent client does not itself believe in Chinese avonics..says it all isn't it.

Where did you get this part of the information? If i'm not wrong JF's the first fifty of them will all have chinese avonics and weapon system. Where did you read that PAF is not satisfied with SD-10? This is the most important part of the whole programe of the JF and you just blew it in one second. This missle is for the reason that american AMRAAM was made available to PAF. This missle is another reason that most airforce of the world have shown interest in the whole JF programe. And the future upgrade of the JF includes the engine change from RD-93 to WS-13. By the way WS-13 has more thrust then RD-93has which means a better thrust to weight ratio. And the KLJ radar its better then APG-66 on the F-16s and PAF chief clearly said that unless we get a very good offer means a AESA radar, we will carry on with the chinese one.
 
India's involvement in the 5th gen AC is reluctant at most. The airframe deisgn and conceptionalising is already done by the ruskies and the Indians are moving in late to jump start the freezed project. many IAF officials have shown their dissent at India being not involved in the intial design stages. At most what IAF can do now is make it as stealtyhy as possible and get it MKIsed.
 
Stop wishing. The subs, the frigates, the aircrafts, all of them are top notch. Heck those Su-30 are better than what Russians supplied to you guys. Russia gives retired scrap aircraft carrier to India doesn't mean anything. It is a weak argument.

Subs - Kilos
Frigates - ???
Aircrafts - MKK

Are these the top notch stuff you were referring to. Well you need to look at the Russian arsenal to see what all they could have provided. Bears, Amurs, Akulas.....!!!
 
India's involvement in the 5th gen AC is reluctant at most. The airframe deisgn and conceptionalising is already done by the ruskies and the Indians are moving in late to jump start the freezed project. many IAF officials have shown their dissent at India being not involved in the intial design stages. At most what IAF can do now is make it as stealtyhy as possible and get it MKIsed.


I don't think Non-participation in initial stage of concept desiging does not mean that IAF can't contribute it anymore, Still first flight demonstration is yet to happen. Afterall whole purpose of participating in such ambitious project is to learn and utilisize that learning in our future fighter Plane project like MCA.

I don't understand how India can make it more stealty, it would be of great help if you eleborate in detail on increasing Stealthiness.
 
Allow me to join this discussion with a article from Indian defence reporter,

It's been known for a long while now that the PAK-FA, Russia's fifth generation fighter programme, is well off the drawing board. In fact, I was in Moscow when United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) chief Alexey Fedorov announced that the programme's design phase had been passed and approved, and that certain fabrication would shortly begin. This in itself should have set the alarm bells ringing. Reason – the Indian government and air force have been vigorously insistent – reasonably so – that they be part of the design phase. As it happens, this was not to be. It emerges that a dossier of baseline QRs was forwarded to the Russians in late 2006, but these were returned as the design phase was already frozen.

And now, there are statements from the Russians – forget for a minute the rhetoric emerging from the Indian Defence Minister about "new heights in defence relations" – that the PAK-FA will be "jointly modified" for the Indian Air Force. Cool. Really simple question in that case – isn't "joint modification" precisely what happens when India "buys" fighters. Isn't modification what happened with the Sukhoi-30s? Isn't modification what will happen with 126 MMRCAs? What in hell place does "joint modification" have in a joint venture programme that's likely to cost India $5 billion? Zip. Zero. Nada. As usual, we're being had.

This takes nothing from the fact that the PAK-FA (if it's ready by 2015 as promised), could be a fantastic machine. Let's not forget that IAF alterations – even if they're under the "joint modification" plan – will mean an excellent plane by any means. We've been through the technology and all the rest of it that should ostensibly under the FGFA's hood, but what about the money, the credibility.

Ironically, instead of re-emphasising trust and credibility while India ponders about Washington's word of assurance, Russia has categorically reneged on contracts, accentuated its reputation for non-reliability and put itself across not just as a newly capitalist nation, but a ferociously unfeeling state dismissive of the past. The recent past does not augur well – our Ilyushin-38 upgrade programme is stuck in Russia. There are problems with the three follow-on Talwar class frigates regarding weapons configuration and price escalation. The Gorshkov mess we're all aware of. And most recently, India bowing to Russia's demand for a 5 per cent cost escalation on the enormous Flanker deal signed in the late 1990s. This last deal was one built on political good faith – India didn't need these fighters at the time. It was a political favour to Moscow, still reeling from the aftershock of shutting down Red Russia. The vicious commercialization of relations has caught India off guard – New Delhi remains in a dream world of the past. Hilariously, Russia has voiced problems about investing India's debt to Moscow as India's share of the FGFA investment. Sorry, but I can't think of a single reason why this should be so. A political leash for the future?

Russia has changed. Big time. And it's time the country sat up and took notice. While India was sitting in a corner wondering about whether to engage the US – was it trustworthy enough? – Russia sulked, instead of seizing the day and re-establishing trust, faith and credibility. Now, it's just like another Washington. How ironic is that. And what of the MCA?


Note: Delet if posted already
 
Also by now I am sure everybody has heard about the T-50 PAK-FA russian project. India just agreed to pump in $5 billion into it..maybe even more. I am really impressed by whats going on with the Indian Air Force.

40 T-50's ( Atleast 40 will be delivered by 2015 )
126 The new MRCA deal
230 SU30MKIs
46 Mirage 2000 upgraded to new variants,
54 Mig 29 Fulcrums upgraded
46 Mig 29 Ks ( Aircraft carrier based)
52 Mig 21 Bisons
298 Mig 27ML, Mig 21FL/M/MF, Mig 23BN, Jaguar IS/IM
----
892

total combat aircraft..thats if the mig 21M/MFs survive that long. Considering the Mig 21's are phased out or converted into intermediate trainers, even a 600+ combat aircraft airforce is big especially with around 500 4.5 and 5 generation aircraft is very good. Will defintely be one of the best airforces in the world.

Ofcourse we Americans will still reserve the top spot. Lol

Plus the T-50s which should roll out in 10 years considering the Su-47 , on which it will be based is already testing.
 
I doubt these are the supposed stealth fighters.
Simple fact that they have canards means stealth is out of the window.

hay what do you think that haing canard doesn't mean that it become stealth less as you sould use your mind i know it might feel strange to some people but the thing is that canards are just like the opposite to rear stabilizers so you can understand what i am trying to say that moving stabilizers forward and making it like canards cause some design differnce but saying that it cannot be a stealthy fighter is wrong in this regard you have to say that F-22 raptor is not a stealthy coz it has rear stabilizers and doesnot have stealthy features uyou would amazed to hear that those jets which have canards like chinese series of F-10 , EF-2000 and rafeal and also the chinese J12 & J-13 projects they generate much less hurdles in design then other to make it comletely stealthy . ok :cheesy::china::pakistan::flame::rofl::taz:
 
I doubt these are the supposed stealth fighters.
Simple fact that they have canards means stealth is out of the window.
I know you were unable to understand the fact that canards are just basically the opposite of rear stabilizers which are move forward so the plane couldn't stall and gives some other things also like more stealthy features , i think that the people could understand what i am trying to say . And also that the fighters which utilizes canards tech. they have much stealthy features then other like EF-2000 , Gripen , rafeal & series of F-10(like super F-10) by the way you have seen the pics of J-XX(J-14) so it also utilizes canards coz canards give 0% design resistance coz i have read some where that rear stabilizers cause some problems when making jets completely stealthy:taz::china::pakistan:
 
Update for the Thread

Russian new-generation fighter plane set 2012 deadline

12:54 | 30/ 10/ 2007

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MOSCOW, October 30 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's new-generation fighter plane, currently being jointly developed with India, will make its maiden flight no later than in 2012, a senior Air Force official said on Tuesday.

Russia and India signed an agreement on cooperation in the development and production of an advanced multi-purpose fighter aircraft on October 18.

"The deadlines have been set - it [the fighter] must take to the skies in 2012 and enter service [with the Air Force] in 2015," said Lt. Gen. Igor Sadofyev, deputy commander of the Russian Air Force.

The general said Russian-Indian cooperation on the project would significantly boost its development.

"International cooperation and joint development efforts will certainly expedite the process," Sadofyev said. "It's a path the whole world is taking nowadays, and we are no exception."



RIA Novosti - Russia - Russian new-generation fighter plane set 2012 deadline

He confirms what IAF chief had to say on the Time Line...Does this also means that there is scope for changes/modifications in Aircraft Design as well ?
 
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