Russia-Ukraine War - News and Developments PART 2

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And getting rid of a mortal enemy for less than of 5% of defence budget with somebody else’s lives lost, is too good of a deal to pass up.

(1) Mortal Enemy - thats a hangover from the Cold War mindset, and no longer justifiable.

Outside of Ukraine, and prior to the Ukrainian conflict, Russia was increasingly building economic ties with the EU and the rest of the world, especially with regards to provision of natural resources.

So please explain exactly what kind of threat Russia posed to be declared a ‘mortal enemy’ of the US.

(2) Somebody else’s lives lost - something you and I will never agree upon. I find that position morally repugnant and reminiscent of cruel empires and warlords. I’m sure you and others will justify it as ‘real politik’, but what you’re justifying at a global level is essentially the brutality of tribes and warlords of our past.

 

[LeGenD]

Lancet drone strike in the CAESAR self-propelled guns of the Ukrainian army. A Ukrainian self-propelled gun 155-mm self-propelled gun "CAESAR" of French production, came under attack from a Russian kamikaze drone "Lancet".

I have to admit, Lancet is one of the best weapons produced by Russia.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

THe reason those in the US that enjoy prosperity is because of the global eco-system of interpendent countries and the power projection. What i am saying is that prosperity (despite those left behind in it) has been because of this non-inward view. That is the mindset that continues. Once its inward looking, yes short-term people may be helped, but after that its sustained decline for the country economically.

I’m not suggesting that the US become ‘inward looking’, what I am contesting is the argument that stoking wars, such as this one in Ukraine, is tied to prosperity, growth and maintaining influence. Most of tbe EU was reluctant to get involved in this war, and would not have without the US pushing it, and the global economic costs have been significant already.

 

[jhungary]

To what end?

What actual threat did Russia pose to NATO, prior to the Ukraine war, that justifies the (likely) trillions in global economic costs, hundreds of thousands dead, and the domestic opportunity cost for NATO (US especially)?

To the end where the Military Industry in the US get all the contract.

As I pointed out, this war is not about justice, not about democracy, I would say this war for America is not about Ukrainian life too. This war, like all wars since Korean War, is about one thing. A giant advertisement for arms maker.

The issue here is, the US can close out this war by dumping everything to the Ukrainian at once, screw Russia, they can't do shit anyway, but instead the Congress is giving Ukraine tiny bit of pieces here and there, 30 Abrams, 100 Bradley and so on, those aren't enough to push the war in favor of Ukraine, what this achieve is, they made good advert for BAe land system or GM to sell contract. HIMARS sales went up 100% (from 105 order to more than 200 with new order from Romania, Poland, Australia, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Morocco and Taiwan), Javelin production is now triple, this war put Europe into panic mode and when people panic, they buy stuff.

This is about politics, you put the money in a school, it made turn up a few PhD, it may not, but if you put the same money in a war, you earn contracts, and that in turn generate more revenue and prolong the war, kind of like how Rockstar prolong the development of GTA VI and milk GTA Online for as long as possible. US Government always going to choose putting money in war because it generates revenue for them it's a positive gain, while you dump resource if you put those money in hospital or school.

If you want social program, then you probably need to move to a welfare state, or why do you think I made the move to Australia??

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Ukraine must surrender

And what if it does?

What do you believe would happen if Russia gets the territory it wants, Ukraine is reduced to a rump State and there is an international agreement that Ukraine will stay neutral and not be used to house NATO forces or build up its military?

 

[jhungary]

And what if it does?

What do you believe would happen if Russia gets the territory it wants, Ukraine is reduced to a rump State and there is an international agreement that Ukraine will stay neutral and not be used to house NATO forces or build up its military?

Just 2 problems here.

1.) It's not for Russia, or US to decide or dictate what Ukraine should or should not do. It's always Ukrainian decision.,
2.) Do you really think Ukraine will surrender and neuter itself now when they know Russia can do the square root of jack shit on them?

As I said before, this war is going to continue even if the west withdraw their support completely. Russia had exerted themselves and unless they pull out and regroup and regenerate, they are not going to make any progress in Ukraine, which mean even if the West stop all aid, if Ukraine want to fight, they will go on and get into a more or less soft approach and keep it low intensity.

This war, will not end even if the West withdraw all support, in fact, unless the west want to gamble that Ukraine go to China and ask them for help after what the NATO did, they probably will keep on their support. On the other hand, why would they? earning million or even billion of dollars in arms sale while they have none of the draw back from like the war in Afghanistan. That's a win win for them

This war is not going to end anytime soon, and people need to realise this.

 

[F-22Raptor]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1697620205541753291

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

1.) It's not for Russia, or US to decide or dictate what Ukraine should or should not do. It's always Ukrainian decision.,
2.) Do you really think Ukraine will surrender and neuter itself now when they know Russia can do the square root of jack shit on them?

1) NATO can decide to end military and financial support. The Ukrainians can decide at that point what decision they want to make. A negotiated end to the current conflict resulting in a smaller, de-militarized Ukrainian State OR continued war without NATO support.

2) If Ukraine doesn’t want to surrender, then let them keep fighting the Russians the Afghan way, on their own dime. I don’t see Ukraine lasting in a conventional war against Russia without NATO support.

 

[jhungary]

1) NATO can decide to end military and financial support. The Ukrainians can decide at that point what decision they want to make. A negotiated end to the current conflict resulting in a smaller, de-militarized Ukrainian State OR continued war without NATO support.

Again, this is going to be the Ukraine decision, and I will move on to next point.

2) If Ukraine doesn’t want to surrender, then let them keep fighting the Russians the Afghan way, on their own dime. I don’t see Ukraine lasting in a conventional war against Russia without NATO support.

Again, could NATO afford not to support Ukraine? Ukraine gain basically everything from NATO, knowing a lot of NATO secret. The moment US or EU start withdrawing support, if I were Ukraine, i will turn to the Chinese using everything I know about NATO and run to them for support.

Can NATO really afford to lose Ukraine to China?

On the other hand, as I already point out, this war is good for NATO military complex, as long as this war is going on, it help them sell military equipment to everyone, and anyone and without having to risk your own people, I mean sure, NATO dumped 100 billion in Ukraine. But look at how much money NATO Arms making made back? HIMARS sales alone saw 20 billions sales in 2022/2023, then you have F-35, Javelin, NLAW, Abrams Tank, and so on, that already cover the war

Again, you see this war in a citizen point of view, you didn't see this war as a politician point of view, and you should know by now citizen does not control a country, politician did,

 

[Gomig-21]

More importantly it can't carry much fuel so its range is limited.

Which is why they're thinking the attack was more likely within the Russian border and closer to the airbase. That presents a whole other problem for Russia - enemies inside the state. What do they do now?

So airbases near Nato member borders should not host high end equipment although far from actual Ukraine frontlines. Transport planes ,Awacs, high end Fighter aircraft should be kept deep inside far from all possible frontlines.

And if you look at aerial images of Pskov, it's right next to the city, almost in the middle of it which creates a whole other problem for them. Even if they're successful in targeting and destroying said drones, what about the fallen debris? If they're packing such deadly explosives, that crap is falling on buildings and houses and very likely causing destruction & civilian deaths. So many problems.

This is somewhat similar to quad rotor drone attacks that happened before which are also almost invisible to radar. Other options like Lidar can be developed for sites like airbases for early warning as well.

I agree, lidar would be better than radar in this case. The Russians must be reeling from this because of the difficulty defending against those types of drone attacks, first person views or any other smaller types. Not only against an airbase like Pskov, but what other targets are ripe for the Ukrainians? Now that they've succeeded with this, I'm sure they're planning more. Time for Russia to button down the hatches.

Ukrainians have praised Western equipment for this reason alone - it is built to save lives.

Depends on the size of the ordinance. Mines can only produce a certain level of detonating power. IEDs on the other hand...

This is something that Russians and its fanbase does not seem to understand. Lives are not cheap. You do not want to loose experienced soldiers in droves.

Very true. One of the major aspects that makes the US a top power in the world, the value it gives to its soldiers. This has been a long-standing element in US warfare from the start. What's that famous saying?

Nemo Resideo
"No one left behind" is a creed and ethos often repeated and adhered to by various units and soldiers. It is an ancient and noble warrior code that evokes images of bone-weary Marines carrying the frozen corpses of their comrades on the retreat from Chosin Reservoir in Korea, or helicopters zooming in under fire to rescue surrounded Special Forces in Vietnam. The Latin version, nemo resideo, is even the motto of the Marine Corps’ Personnel Retrieval and Processing Company, the team charged with retrieving the remains of fallen service members from the battlefield. The oath to never leave a fallen comrade is a promise made to each other, that even if we die, our brothers in arms will do everything they can to bring us home.

 

[F-22Raptor]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1697642444538384548

https://twitter.com/x/status/1697642705327726992

 

[Ali_Baba]

Indeed.

Ukrainians have praised Western equipment for this reason alone - it is built to save lives. This is something that Russians and its fanbase does not seem to understand. Lives are not cheap. You do not want to loose experienced soldiers in droves.

That M113 will be recovered, repaired and then sent back into the fight. They are rarely total writeoffs as they are so well built. In a war of attrition - that is an important quality to have. Most russian stuff blows up and is non-repairable, along with the loss of lives.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

@AgNoStiC MuSliM probably has two goals.
* Russia to win.
* He is against paying for something that does not personally benefit him,

There are no major politicians in the US that wants to cut down on Ukraine support to build infrastructure. He will be happy if the Ukraine support is cut regardless where the money goes.

Living meme

https://twitter.com/x/status/1697274412695781756

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

What specifically was the threat to NATO countries from Russia prior to the Ukraine conflict?

Even now, given that Russia is struggling to finish the conflict in Ukraine, the point has been very clearly made that Russia CANNOT take on NATO in a full fledged war, nor was there any sign it was planning to, given the state of its military prior to the Ukrainian conflict.

The people in the US Establishment need to find another outlet to relieve their frustrations over war-mongering fantasies and chasing down Don Quixote monsters. Plenty of great RPG games out there.

And while I personally find Trump and the US Right Wing abhorrent, Trump won the elections because enough Americans overlooked his xenophobia, prejudice, moral and ethical flaws and votes for him, and not because ‘the Russians funded him’. Even making that argument (Trump won because of Russian interference) is part of the problem, because it ignores the dangerous shift towards right-wing extremism domestically in the US.

Just look at the laws being passed in many Republican controlled states in the US, especially by the man who was the favorite after Trump - Ron DeSantis. Trump is a symptom of a extremist right wing shift in US politics that started long before he became President, and the Democrats are fucking idiots for still trying to play nice and be ‘moderate’, whereas the Republicans have moved the ‘Overton Window’ significantly towards the Right.


I had no intention of moderating this thread, or even participating. I pretty much ignored it till I saw a notification that a member (whose posts I like to read) posted here, started reading the thread where I first posted, saw ZeGerman’s post that rankled me, and here we are.

Since there are thousands of pages on this thread, and I am sure thousands of posts that should be deleted, my hope is to just encourage everyone to move on from here.

Murdering a bunch of people tends to put you on someone shitlist. Putin is the architect of his own downfall. NATO has nothing to do with it.

Trump would never get where he is without Russian money. He can't even get a loan anywhere else until a Russian Oligarchs vouches for him. Ever found it incredibly suspicious that the American (European too) right are suddenly pro-russian despite half of century treating them like the devil.

GOP Felon Dishes About Ex-Lover, Russian ‘Spy’ Maria Butina

The dramatic espionage saga has taken yet another turn following Paul Erickson’s release from prison.

www.thedailybeast.com

Russia Secretly Gave $300 Million to Political Parties and Officials Worldwide, U.S. Says (Published 2022)

A U.S. intelligence review found that Russian agencies and figures aimed to exert political influence abroad and sway elections on behalf of the Kremlin.

www.nytimes.com

This is just 1 bad thing the Russian does against the West mind you.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Again, you see this war in a citizen point of view, you didn't see this war as a politician point of view,

Oh, but I do understand that this war is about politics. However, as a responsible citizen, I’m going to voice my opposition to the war precisely for that reason, and use my tiny little bully pulpit in this insignificant corner of the WWW.

I might be an idealist, but change doesn’t come from sitting quietly and never taking a stance against what you see as wrong.