Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked

[Spectre]

yes A couple of manuals will bring down the IN!

How do you know it is "couple of manuals". The OP clearly stated it has details about noise frequency, coms, heat radiation levels etc.

Have you gone through all 22000+ pages to arrive at this irrefutable conclusion?

 

[Nilgiri]

So you believe that it was a 22,000 page manual ?

Have you looked at a complete manual for say even a standard FEA software (say abaqus, creo) etc?

 

[Olaf One-Brow]

Since you guys are now concerned about the French designs, how about an American one?

Modernized of course, if you would be interested in one of our AIP designs. While the US doesn't build conventional submarines for its own navy, it does do consultation work for others and keep designs in-case the Navy decides it'd like to explore that option. These designs are updated frequently to keep par with existing and expected threats.

 

[Shankranthi]

I think its just a media over-dramatization that seems to have come from some manual being passed around like you mentioned earlier.

A lot of these kinds of documents often have adjuncts that add what specific proposed changes may be for individual customers (to sell on the fact it can be customised etc)....having read a few myself. For Scorpene, India, Malaysia and others obviously would be included in these....so some fancy words may have stuck out to a media type that got his hands on it.

I really doubt anything really sensitive would be found in such....I mean any country can ask DCNS for such a manual in a RFP to begin with.

Anyways lets wait and see what happens.

Will be interested to see what @Vergennes and @Taygibay and @BON PLAN have to say.

Even if it is "Media over dramatization", even if it is prompted by Chinese intelligence to discredit DCNS and France and designed to prevent Australia from buying Scorpene, how does that bring solace to us ?

What it shows is how easily DCNS sub contractors can steal data. How loose their security system and procedure is. It talks volumes about French security standards.

The same french security standards that govern secrets of Rafale. How much confidence does this inspire ?

 

[GuardianRED]

So you believe that it was a 22,000 page manual ?

And you are sure that there is nothing more leaked beyond those pages ? ............. your faith is truly touching.

Have u read the 22,000 pages?

and your lack of faith disturbing!

How do you know it is "couple of manuals". The OP clearly stated it has details about noise frequency, coms, heat radiation levels etc.

Have you gone through all 22000+ pages to arrive at this irrefutable conclusion?

Yes Radiation levels in a Diesel Electricl Sub! ... yes that will bring down the IN

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

This is old news we already have this information

It was a gift from some friends from the Baltic

 

[Spectre]

Yes Radiation levels in a Diesel Electricl Sub! ... yes that will bring down the IN

Oh Genius! Do you think there is only one type of radiation? Did you even read my post? Did you perhaps notice the prefix "Heat"

Bloody amateurs..

 

[Shankranthi]

Have u read the 22,000 pages?

and your lack of faith disturbing!

Yes Radiation levels in a Diesel Electricl Sub! ... yes that will bring down the IN

The last time Indian Defence forces had "faith" in other nations, China came in right upto Assam. So spare me the sermons on 'faith'.

How are you sure only 22,000 odd pages have been leaked ? Those are just the pages with the News Paper. There could very well be 50,000 pages of leaked information.

Have you looked at a complete manual for say even a standard FEA software (say abaqus, creo) etc?

yes.

 

[Olaf One-Brow]

Oh Genius! Do you think there is only one type of radiation? Did you even read my post? Did you perhaps notice the prefix "Heat"

The heat levels matter when surfaced, but thermal energy dissipates too quickly while submerged to be a major factor in detection.

Noise frequency is the big threat, but coms is another strange one. SubComs tend to be either directional or dissipated via water. I've done a few posts on the matter. I'll dig them up for you as I don't really feel like going over this again.

...

@Spectre here's a brief one on noise - be patient, I'm going through some posts to find the others.

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-iran-joint-naval-drill.436746/page-3#post-8419338

This isn't the exact post I wanted, but it gives a good introductory look at comms:

https://defence.pk/threads/the-myst...ng-the-west-the-drizzles.344611/#post-6445754

...

Alright, I can't find the specific post I'm looking for. basically with communications it's this:

1.) SubCom are highly directional. To intercept them you'd need to park a system directly overhead of the submarine, in between the submarines up/down link and those of the satellite its talking with and keep it there, where it'll interfere with the beam, be detected and the communication will be ceased, thus foiling the attempted interception of the comms.

Same with communications with orbiting aircraft like nuclear bombs who act may be acting as a relay for the submarine's weapons, or as a communications channel.

In this respect they, the sub's communications nodes, are similar to satellites whose directional nature makes intercepting data from them, their up or downlink or their receiving party very difficult. Up close there is leakage and an inspection satellite like MiteX A/B could gather SIGINT, but putting a mass near another to gather data will interfere with the larger mass's orbit, causing it to wobble (much like a star from orbiting planets) and this can be detected from ground crews who will switch to a contingency.

There is very little "leakage" of electronic energy from a submarine.

2.) Like heat, electromagnetic energy dissipates quickly underwater. Ultra-low frequencies are used to communication, but only near the surface. The most used options are low frequency LEDs or wire guidance.

If I find the posts I'm looking for I'll add them above.

 

[GuardianRED]

Oh Genius! Do you think there is only one type of radiation? Did you even read my post? Did you perhaps notice the prefix "Heat"

Bloody amateurs..

And all this is sensitive information is mentioned in documents even before the Sub was built and tested !.

and Again HEAT radiation in a Diesel Electric Sub.

Lack of knowledge for some senior i see!

 

[Vergennes]

@Nilgiri


The highest authorities are investigating the case,but it seems like the datas were taken out of France in 2011 by a former Navy officer,that was back then a contractor for DCNS. The documents could have landed in some south east asia companies' hands before landing in Australia... So,everyone is implying that it's the indians that leaked all of this. @Blue Marlin

Investigations will tell everything.

 

[Spectre]

The heat levels matter when surfaced, but thermal energy dissipates too quickly while submerged to be a major factor in detection.

Noise frequency is the big threat, but coms is another strange one. SubComs tend to be either directional or dissipated via water. I've done a few posts on the matter. I'll dig them up for you as I don't really feel like going over this again.

...

@Spectre here's a brief one on noise:

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-iran-joint-naval-drill.436746/page-3#post-8419338

I agree, some may be critical information and some may not be so but then again it is about the principle of thing.

If the information is marked as classified then it should not have been leaked.

1. Thermal signatures in non aip subs play a substantial role in detection AFAIK even when submerged particularly if another sub/ sensors are in vicinity. When not submerged, specific signatures if known - can provide classification information to enemy vessels or airborne assets.

2. I honestly have no clue about subcom, however it stands to reason that protocols will be handy. Specially when we talk about sub to satellite communication. I remember it was a taboo subject last we touched upon it

And all this is sensitive information is mentioned in documents even before the Sub was built and tested !.

and Again HEAT radiation in a Diesel Electric Sub.

Lack of knowledge for some senior i see!

Perhaps you can tell me something concrete instead of just repeating what I said, in a rhetorical manner?

 

[Papa Dragon]

What a beat up! "RESTRICTED" is the lowest level of security classification usually used for training pamphlets and brochures etc. It is certainly not SECRET. What is more interesting is what is the motivation for the beat up?

 

[Nilgiri]

yes.

And how many pages are they for say ABAQUS?

Even if it is "Media over dramatization", even if it is prompted by Chinese intelligence to discredit DCNS and France and designed to prevent Australia from buying Scorpene, how does that bring solace to us ?

What it shows is how easily DCNS sub contractors can steal data. How loose their security system and procedure is. It talks volumes about French security standards.

The same french security standards that govern secrets of Rafale. How much confidence does this inspire ?

Why dont you let the investigations commence and conclude before coming to your conclusions based on a media report?

 

[Shankranthi]

And how many pages are they for say ABAQUS?

I did not say I have read one for ABAQUS. How is that relevant ? You are attempting to win the debate by Ad Hominem ?

Why dont you let the investigations commence and conclude before coming to your conclusions based on a media report?

LOL... are you expecting the complete result of this investigation into a defence leak in the public domain ?