Hell hound
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wah ustaad wah isi bat pay ek or jam
Tajikistan: No Hajj, No Hijab, and Shave Your Beard
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abdulbarijan
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What beat up old rhetoric .. your saying the state doesn't have a religion ... okay then .. Consider this, the biggest argument secularists have against a state with religion is that it enforces its sense of morality to individuals that don't necessarily have the same moral compass i.e. people of other religions/ atheists etc..
Now all you have to do is look up the modern "secular states" -- Lets talk France, first they banned the Burka, now they are banning swimwear made for muslims and handing out fines for people who wear swimwear designed for muslims on the beach.
USA is secular, where religion of the individual shouldn't matter yes? but you know one the biggest concerns in the elections back in 08 was that Obama was a muslim. John Mccain was attending a gathering and answering questions where a lady stood up and straight up said that " I can't trust Obama, I read about him .. He's an Arab" ... to which Mccain reeplied " No mam, He's a decent family man, citizen that I happen to have disagreements with" .. A state with no religion yet more or less all oaths are taken on the bible .. strange right ? How about something more stranger, the fact that the national anthem of the US has the lyrics
"Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the Heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.'"
Lets go towards India and talk about how hindu morality is not enforced on the rest of the communities ... What was it .. people getting their rear ends whopped because they ate meat?
If the "religion is really an individual thing" how come these "secular states" have done and do all of the things stated above ?Aren't they enforcing their sense of morality unto others (individuals) who don't belong to the same religion/ don't have the same moral compass .. If so, then how can you claim that there is no "religion of the state" even for the so called "secular states" ?
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Husnainshah
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This is a laymen approach towards a very complicated issue. Saudi has spent billions of dollars and decades promoting a venomous version of Islam which has corrupted 1 to 2 generations. Dealing with this cancer isn't as easy as banning a few practices. It's naive at best. Build a strong counter-narrative, spend millions of dollars then wait a few decades.
Zibago
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Hazoor France is bigoted i agree its a colonial supermist state but they are not even 10% bigoted as we are
abdulbarijan
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Bigotry is not even the point I was trying to make .... The point I put forth was ... Even "secular states" .. the states who by definition don't have any religion -- have a moral compass derived/in sync from/with those in majority (by population) ... So whats the point of a secular state if the majority's moral compass is always in place ... and the minority in more or less all cases will be dictated by the majority's version of morality ?
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Pakistani E
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Speaking against bigots and extremists doesnot mean i am speaking against Muslims
Na ji mara jena marna isi mulk ch hosi tusaan kithay hor jhulna tey tusaan uthey jhulo mein ithey reh saan
And its my responsibility as patriotic citizen to speak against ills in my country and fix them (bigotry and extremism is one of them)
Um no it would be better if the self righteous folks leave
@Pakistani Exile @Moonlight @django @The Sandman
That's the problem with these people, they think Pakistan belongs to them only. Irony is most of these mullah worshippers were vehement enemies of the Qaid. Now they parade around as its moral and religious guardians. Hypocrites of the highest order.
Secular Tajikistan even debated banning arabic names last year.
Tajikistan debates ban on Arabic names as part of crackdown on Islam
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/08/tajikistan-islam-arabic-names-crackdown
And they Banned Arabic names the beginning of this year:
Tajikistan Moves To Ban Arabic Names, Marriages Between First Cousins
http://www.rferl.org/content/tajikistan-ban-arabic-names-marriage-between-cousins/27486012.html
People actually get beated to death for having beard in Tajikistan.
The men evading Tajikistan's de-facto beard ban
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/07/tajikistans-beard-ban-facial-hair-emomali-rahmon
Earlier this month 23-year-old Umar Bobojonov died in hospital after being beaten by the police. His family said it was because he wore a beard.
A crackdown on religion, and everything connected with it, has followed: in addition to the de-facto beard ban, restrictions on imports of hijabs and a drive to eliminate names considered to be “too Arabic” have been initiated in the past year alone.
@Apprentice @Azad-Kashmiri @AUz @abdulbarijan @Zarvan @Malik Abdullah @ebrahym
Tajikistan debates ban on Arabic names as part of crackdown on Islam
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/08/tajikistan-islam-arabic-names-crackdown
And they Banned Arabic names the beginning of this year:
Tajikistan Moves To Ban Arabic Names, Marriages Between First Cousins
http://www.rferl.org/content/tajikistan-ban-arabic-names-marriage-between-cousins/27486012.html
People actually get beated to death for having beard in Tajikistan.
The men evading Tajikistan's de-facto beard ban
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/07/tajikistans-beard-ban-facial-hair-emomali-rahmon
Earlier this month 23-year-old Umar Bobojonov died in hospital after being beaten by the police. His family said it was because he wore a beard.
A crackdown on religion, and everything connected with it, has followed: in addition to the de-facto beard ban, restrictions on imports of hijabs and a drive to eliminate names considered to be “too Arabic” have been initiated in the past year alone.
@Apprentice @Azad-Kashmiri @AUz @abdulbarijan @Zarvan @Malik Abdullah @ebrahym
ebrahym
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bro i have seen your other thread about Uzbekistan as well
all you need to realize about central asia is they have regimes which are threatened by muslim democracies
they are effectively backed by russia and its better for everyone if they stay them same way
but now they are being exploited by Uncle sam as this region is pro-russian
SarthakGanguly
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Please. Let them be.
Dubious
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The problem with the world is they seem to equate secularism to extreme measures....Tajikistan: No Hajj, No Hijab, and Shave Your Beard
In a Muslim-majority country, state control of religious expression tightens.
Technically, freedom of religion is enshrined in the constitution of Tajikistan. But in reality, religious practice–at least for members of the country’s Muslim majority–is tightly controlled by the state. In recent months, Tajikistan has further steadied its grip on the practice of Islam with the president commenting on proper attire, reports of forced beard-shavings, and new regulations on who can travel to Mecca on hajj.
Until last month’s parliamentary elections, Tajikistan was the only Central Asian state in which political Islam had representation. The Islamic Renaissance Party of Tajikistan (IRPT) is widely touted as the only legally registered religious party in the region. While true, in the March election (unsurprisingly flawed) the IRPT lost, and for the first time since its legalization following the civil war will be out of government entirely. To add insult to injury the country’s official religious bodies have called for the IRPT to be banned, and some have suggested it should be labeled a terrorist organization.
The tightening grip of the state on Islam extends beyond politics. The State Committee on Religious Affairs (CRA) is responsible for overseeing and implementing laws relating to religion–including registration of religious groups, regulation of imports of religious materials, and oversight of mosques and churches. The Council of Ulema guides the Tajik Muslim community and while nominally independent, presents a state-approved version of Islam.
There are laws on the books banning female students from wearing hijabs, prohibiting those under the age of 18 from from participating in public religious activities, except funerals, which are regulated anyway. According to the U.S. Department of State’s 2013 International Religious Freedom Report:
The law regulates private celebrations and funeral services, including weddings and Mavludi Payghambar (the Prophet Muhammad’s birthday). The law limits the number of guests, eliminates engagement parties, and controls ceremonial gift presentations and other rituals. The religion law reiterates these principles, mandating that “mass worship, religious traditions, and ceremonies should be carried out according to the procedure of holding meetings, rallies, demonstrations, and peaceful processions prescribed by law.”
State control of religious expression extends to personal dress and grooming. In January 2014, Tajik Imams were issued new uniforms, and Abdulfattoh Shafiev wrote recently for Global Voices about several incidents of forced beard-shaving.
On March 31 a visitor to Khujand lost his way, and asked a local policeman how to find it again. The 38-year-old man, who grew a beard after a pilgrimage to the Kaaba five years ago, soon regretted his question.
He claims he was taken to a police station, beaten, and forcefully shaved.
As in the other former Soviet republics of Central Asia, the government of Tajikistan is fiercely secular while the people are mostly Muslim. The influence of Soviet communism on religion in the region should not be discounted, and fundamentally influences the relationship between people, their religion, and politics. In a paper published by Chatham House last November, John Heathershaw, and David W. Montgomery identify the claim that political Islam opposes the secular state as one of the six myths of post-Soviet Muslim radicalization in Central Asia. Myth or not, the worry that political Islam could challenge the establishment, persists.
This week, Interfax reported that the CRA said in a press conference that only people over the age of 35 would be among those permitted to perform the annual pilgrimage (hajj) to the Islamic holy sites at Medina and Mecca this year. CRA is responsible for registering those who wish to travel for hajj. Saudi Arabia, which establishes national quotas in order to regulate the overwhelming flood of faithful each year, has reportedly lowered Tajikistan’s quota from 8,000 to 6,300 people.
One way to view the Tajik government’s age restriction is practicality–this is an easy way to trim the applicant pool. But in light of other trends, and the government’s overwhelming fear of youth radicalization, the dictum feeds into a larger narrative chronicling Tajikistan’s crackdown on Islam.
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Another shining example of a secular state with muslim majority. Believe it or not reportedly 95% of Tajikistan is sunni muslim but muslim men can't even have a beard under state law. There was an incident at the beginning of this year when 13,000 men were forcefully shaved by police. Tajikistan is just part of the century long secular crusade that is going on against the muslim world.
@Zarvan @Apprentice @Malik Abdullah @Aslan @Tipu7 @T-Rex @Al-zakir @tesla @Yellow-place @dsr478 @bsruzm @CrimsonFury @Zulkarneyn @HAKIKAT @Jamaal Yelmaaz @jamal18 @LeGenD @Arefin007 @Stannis Baratheon @asad71 @monitor @Psychic @kobiraaz @Indus Falcon @Djinn @lastofthepatriots @war&peace @Saiful Islam @django @Sparkle229 @Mrc @alarabi @Decisive Storm @Akheilos @Timur @naveedullahkhankhattak @Talwar e Pakistan @Major Sam
@Ghareeb_Da_Baal @hussain0216 @Azad-Kashmiri @Genghis khan1 @ThE-ShOwStOpPeR
Such secularism is more of a showcase of wanna be people wanting approval.
Seriously secularism doesnt mean enforce the opposite end of the spectrum!
When "extreme" mentality came to Pakistan ....it took Pakistan over 30 yrs to start looking like a cave painting from Afghanistan...So give this new breed of the other side of the spectrum 2 decades before you cheer!
We can already see 2 decades of secularism in France....It is proving to be more Fascist then secular by definition not by what they claim and call themselves!
As for the title:
Is secularism inherently dogmatic and intolerant ?
Secularism is a "theme" an ideology a concept...It is still evolving to find its place in the world and the definition no longer looks like what it was first coined to be!
As for intolerance....THAT comes more from the people rather than the concept/ ideology or theme!
I would say it is overrated....
A group of people will say it is wrong even as far as pushing it as stupid to follow a set of divine rules but they have no problem following same rules if they came out of a philosopher or a leader's mouth!
Or written in the constitution just as long as it is not linked with religion....That in English is pure ignorance and ego intermingling!
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