Terrorist and killer Narendra Modi on TIME 2012 list is a shame

[Joe Shearer]

It is strange, passing strange that after turning my accusation on its head, and arguing that I am not aware of the facts, and I am allowing prejudices to rule instead, you should then betray - once again - the same failing.

[.......]

Unless you did so, your statement is still redolent of personal opinion, not fact. Your facts are nowhere to be seen.

Nice try, but then again you are just beating around the bush when the core of your argument has been debunked.

Your initial accusation was that Modi "paraded" the bodies around Ahmedabad to rouse passions and I countered that myth by proving how much caution was exercised in bringing it to the Sola Hospital in a sparsely populated area in the dead of the night and how he wanted the bodies to be cremated there itself , but it was the relatives of the fallen who would not agree to it and took the bodies into their possession.

For your reading again,
Significantly, Modi tried to ensure that the bodies of the victims were cremated near the hospital where they were brought for post-mortem at 3.30 a.m. on February 28 from Godhra.The Sola Civil Hospital is on the western outskirts of Ahmedabad where the Muslim population is negligible. Cremating the bodies there, Modi thought, would have helped contain the anger.

Some VHP leaders present at the spot were also under instructions to convince the relatives of the victims to agree to the proposal. But the moment the proposal was floated, the kin of the dead flared up and accused the BJP "of acting in a manner worse than the Congress".
India Today

This is the sworn testimony of Ashok Narayanan, Additional Chief Secretary (Home) deposing before the Nanavati Mishra Commission of Inquiry:
• Modi first asked for the burnt coach to be transported to Ahmedabad but Jayanti Ravi (the Godhra DM) strongly opposed this move.
• Thereafter, Modi ordered that the bodies be handed over to the then VHP state general secretary, Jaideep Patel who sent them to the Sola Civil Hospital in Ahmedabad.
• It was at this time that the bodies were paraded, entering Ahmedabad from the east and proceeding through the entire city to the hospital in the west;
• The bodies were not handed over to any official but a functionary of a rabid organization.

I repeat, since the hospital lay on the western skirts of Ahmedabad, and the dead bodies were coming in from Godhra, which lies on the east of the city, the bodies were then taken through the entire breadth of the city. A quick check with an online mapping service, Yahoo! Maps or Google Maps, will demonstrate this plainly and sufficiently even for you.

This is where the parading took place, not after the bodies reached the hospital, not after those emotional scenes reported took place.

Your other observations are partially clarified in the next few posts. I have not bothered to respond to your baiting about your affiliations or mine, since the written record will tell its tale sufficiently.

 

[Joe Shearer]

No doubt you too are wounded at being called an RSS member or a Sangh Parivar camp follower. Leaving aside the necessity of prevarication in the event of being detected,

You assume too much regarding my sympathies and memberships given that dont have any truck outside this virtual fora. And it is only fair that I counter-assume that you are one of those chai-sipping, stubble sporting,JNU types with their jhola slung across the shoulder exhibiting their coffee club communism.

Realistically I have seen you often label people that don't agree with your line of thinking as RSS/Sangh and what not. It only shows your necessity to stereotype people,classify them into one of the predefined templates in your mind and make them conform to your line of thinking before starting to answer them. Good tactics for online debate, but a very very bad move if you are genuinely interesting in putting your point across and learning something in return.

I note your denial of any connection with the Sangh Parivar, in case my interpretation of your cryptic statement is correct: “…given that dont have any truck outside this virtual fora. …”

On your part, since my record is pretty well known to members of this forum, the chances of my being either a coffee club communist, or a JNU type are best left to them to decide. They have sufficient evidence.

 

[Joe Shearer]

it is interesting that every word, every phrase, even the thought process identical to the thought process that insisted that the courts could not decide the ownership of the Babri Masjid and that the combined faith and belief of the people should override everything else - every last detail matches the MO of the Parivar. Why then are you saddened, or even astonished at people assuming that you are a paid up member of the khaki shorts?

Last time I heard, it was the BMAC (Babri Masjid Acction Committee) that was opposing the Allahabad high court order, trifurcating the land and not the Sangh which actually welcomed the "court order"....And Sangh ? What is the Sangh..Is it a homogeneous monolithic entity speaking in one voice all over ? No. While BJP and RSS welcomed the Allahabad order, some extreme right wingers started opposing after the BMAC opposed it. So much for stereotypes.

First, the opposition to the Allahabad High Court order was not under discussion; however, it is easy to see why it was introduced. The point made was about the identical wording, phrasing and even the underlying thought processes resisting a judicial resolution of the ownership issue, and your present support of the actions of Modi and his government.

It is another matter that being helpless through its having been voted out in the state, the Sangh Parivar could nothing further about extricating the matter from the High Court and reducing it to decision by its own mob-centred judicial process.

What is important is that your dismissal of whatever did not comply with the law of the land, on the grounds of administrative expediency or the spontaneous uprising of the people, is a mirror reflection of that attitude.

That tells its own tale. There is no need to bother with further underlining of the similarity, even the identity of the positions, or to draw the obvious inferences.

 

[Bhairava]

OK seniors just one question....

If Modi is culprit, why CBI is not doing any thing against him? I mean congress is ruling in center & in recent times we saw many big guns in tihar in very short time...

If the chair of CM is main hurdle then why didn`t this hurdle stop taking any action against Mr. Reddy?

Even the Home Minister of India is on the scanner @ this time ...

and mind it CBI is totally under the wing of congress president Sonia Gandhi... do you all think she`s supporting Modi??

They are waiting, with a mountain load of "evidence", for the right time, if some are to be believed..

 

[Ammyy]

@ Joe Shearer .. can you say that CBI is not working for congress interest and making lot of false accusation on him (NoMo) ???

 

[Joe Shearer]

Knowing, granting your point for a moment, knowing the history of bad blood between the two communities and knowing how little it would take to ignite a spark between them, to quote your own words, it could have been either blatant incapacity or Machiavellian cunning to ensure that the dead bodies got a full exposure.

Same rhetoric again ?

Give it a rest sir, as already stated Modi wanted the bodies to be cremated near the hospital premises and it was the relatives of the fallen who insisted on taking them to their place across the Ahmedabad city.

This canard has been set to rest. The history of the diversion of the bodies, the selection of a hospital located such that accessing it could be used to parade through the city, has already been reported in the Home Secretary’s testimony.

Now you may not be aware, but it is an integral part of Hindu funeral rites to bring the body home and perform certain rites before cremating it. And denying them that right, to those who were dead in so cruel a manner, would have only complicated things more.

So we can strike off the Machiavellian cunning part off it. Re incapacity the SIT has already dealt with it and has given a clean chit to his act of bringing the bodies to Ahd from Godhra. Now sir, you who professes the supreme faith in the rule of law, would certainly be aware of that.

As it happens, all things considered, I have rather more familiarity with these funeral rites than I ever wanted to.

You are probably unaware that these can be over-ruled by a magistrate or by the higher administration, and the cremation can be undertaken directly.

You say that denial of this right would only have complicated things more. What complication are you referring to that exceeds the loss of life that took place?

As for the SIT, its role as an instrument of the law, or even as an impartial body acting in exercise of the powers granted it by the Supreme Court, is already grossly vitiated by the adverse testimony of a number of witnesses. Sanjeev Bhatt, for instance, one of a long line of policemen who have revolted against the distortion of the administrative machinery to achieve twisted political aims, but not the only one, has listed all the examples of failure of the SIT to respond to the production of evidence, to the pointing out of the destruction of evidence, and to the pointing out of the sustained intimidation of witnesses.

Citing the SIT to set Modi’s reputation on a pedestal is not likely to convince.

I do accept the rule of law. I also know that those who execute it may on occasion be misguided into misusing their powers and their authority.

@ Joe Shearer .. can you say that CBI is not working for congress interest and making lot of false accusation on him (NoMo) ???

Yes, I can.

The CBI is not involved in these investigations.

It is known to have played whatever role the party in power at the centre at the time wished it to play, and its operation is therefore suspect. Fortunately, it is not involved. Unfortunately, its ex-Chief is involved, and his role has caused a lot of misgivings to neutral observers.

 

[Bhairava]

This is the sworn testimony of Ashok Narayanan, Additional Chief Secretary (Home) deposing before the Nanavati Mishra Commission of Inquiry:
• Modi first asked for the burnt coach to be transported to Ahmedabad but Jayanti Ravi (the Godhra DM) strongly opposed this move.
• Thereafter, Modi ordered that the bodies be handed over to the then VHP state general secretary, Jaideep Patel who sent them to the Sola Civil Hospital in Ahmedabad.

The SIT in its final report has justified the "moving" of the bodies to Ahmedabad on the grounds :

• Tension was building up in Godhra and any further delay in removing the bodies would have proved catastrophic to the Muslims of Godhra
• There was no cold storage and DNA testing facilities in Godhra and they were available in Ahmedabad only
• Most of the killed Karsevaks hailed from around Ahmedabad and it made sense to move the bodies to Ahd so that they could be identified by the relatives.

So a perfectly law abiding citizen like you should have no grounds to question the SIT report which was appointed by the highest legal authority of the land: the Supreme Court.

•It was at this time that the bodies were paraded, entering Ahmedabad from the east and proceeding through the entire city to the hospital in the west;

First of all I oppose your wording "paraded" as if they were material objects. Secondly they were taken in procession by the relatives of the fallen who were appalled at Modi's suggestion that the bodies be buried nearby the Sola civil hospital. You seem to ignoring that fact continuously.

I repeat, since the hospital lay on the western skirts of Ahmedabad, and the dead bodies were coming in from Godhra, which lies on the east of the city, the bodies were then taken through the entire breadth of the city. A quick check with an online mapping service, Yahoo! Maps or Google Maps, will demonstrate this plainly and sufficiently even for you.

Yes...but again the justification given was Sola civil hospital lay in a sparsely populated area wherein the probability of emotions getting the better of people was less compared to the main civil hospital which lies in a densely populated area and from where most of the Kar Sevaks hailed making it easy for them to drum up support to cause disturbances.

This is where the parading took place, not after the bodies reached the hospital, not after those emotional scenes reported took place.

Again if he indeed wanted the bodies to be paraded, it makes no sense to bring in the bodies surreptitiously in the dead of the night @ 3:30 AM when the entire city is sleeping. Instead he would have ordered them brought in the day wherein it would get maximum coverage.

Sorry, the events as it happened dont justify your (tall) claims.

Your other observations are partially clarified in the next few posts. I have not bothered to respond to your baiting about your affiliations or mine, since the written record will tell its tale sufficiently.

It was not me who started this (silly) psychoanalysis of me being a part of any org and my thoughts influenced by that.

 

[Joe Shearer]

OK seniors just one question....

If Modi is culprit, why CBI is not doing any thing against him? I mean congress is ruling in center & in recent times we saw many big guns in tihar in very short time...

The CBI cannot investigate a matter under the purview of the state government of any state without the consent of that state. That is because Law and Order is a state subject.

The cases you have seen in Tihar are uniformly those where the matter was under the jurisdiction of the Government of India.

If the chair of CM is main hurdle then why didn`t this hurdle stop taking any action against Mr. Reddy?

Even the Home Minister of India is on the scanner @ this time ...

and mind it CBI is totally under the wing of congress president Sonia Gandhi... do you all think she`s supporting Modi??

Which Mr. Reddy are you talking about? If it is Jagan Reddy, the son of the former CM of Andhra Pradesh, his investigation was cleared by the state government of Andhra Pradesh.

The Home Minister is not under its scanner at this time; where did you get this strange information? The Home Minister is in fact the minister in charge of this agency and has final authority over it.

Sonia Gandhi has no official authority over the CBI. It reports to the Home Minister, who reports to the Prime Minister.

 

[Bhairava]

First, the opposition to the Allahabad High Court order was not under discussion; however, it is easy to see why it was introduced. The point made was about the identical wording, phrasing and even the underlying thought processes resisting a judicial resolution of the ownership issue, and your present support of the actions of Modi and his government.
It is another matter that being helpless through its having been voted out in the state, the Sangh Parivar could nothing further about extricating the matter from the High Court and reducing it to decision by its own mob-centred judicial process.

I still dont understand why you brought in Ayodhya issue into it when it already clear that RSS made it very clear that they would agree with the judicial verdict on the land sharing before the verdict was pronounced and kept their word after the verdict was pronounced.

Sometimes it is good to come out of our own preconceived notions and look at the world for what it is. Not everything yellow has been afflicted with jaundice.

What is important is that your dismissal of whatever did not comply with the law of the land, on the grounds of administrative expediency or the spontaneous uprising of the people, is a mirror reflection of that attitude.

That tells its own tale. There is no need to bother with further underlining of the similarity, even the identity of the positions, or to draw the obvious inferences.

I'm dismissing nothing. I'm just presenting you the facts, facts that can be corroborated rather than "allegations" and yet you spin your own conpsiracy theories about non-existent evidences and how SIT has ignored everything.

My question : why should I believe what you say over what the SC appointed SIT has to say ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Idealist? Utopian world? The British and independent India after that had developed a careful procedure for dealing with communal strife. This procedure was very well known in Gujarat, especially after the election of the policeman, Jaspal Singh, whose election represented one clear and distinct step forward for the saffronisation of Gujarat.

Ha....Looks like then that "careful procedure" was not so careful after all given the proliferation of communal riots for the flimsiest of reasons that marked North Indian landscape after independence and even before independence (Direct Action day).

Your response might be due to ignorance of the historical facts, quite possibly, or they might be due to wilful distortion.

Wherever the procedures have been followed, there have been no communal riots. The communal riots that you are pointing at are precisely those where the procedure was flouted and weaker police officers as well as less impartial political masters were involved.

West Bengal had, for instance, no communal riots between 1968 and 2012. This was not coincidence.

You sir have made up your mind that Modi was indeed the agent provocateur and you are spinning your argument to suit that. It doesn't work like that.

No.

I have made up my mind that the overwhelming body of evidence shows that there is a prima facie case against Modi. I have made up my mind that the circumstances in which this body of evidence has been prevented, again and again, from resulting in legal action points to an extensive and wholesale misuse of official authority by Modi to evade the consequences of his actions. I believe that he should be charged and put on trial, and that only the results of that trial will release him from the suspicion of culpability in various crimes.

 

[Bhairava]

Regarding the alleged meeting of Haren Pandya with the Citizen's tribunal : It is pertinent to note that even Haren Pandya has denied it.

Modi loyalists claims that they have enough evidence to prove when and where Pandya talked to tribunal members.

A confident Pandya denied it and said, "God is with me,"

rediff.com: Haren Pandya resigns from Gujarat ministry

'Nuff said..

 

[Ammyy]

Yes, I can.

The CBI is not involved in these investigations.

It is known to have played whatever role the party in power at the centre at the time wished it to play, and its operation is therefore suspect. Fortunately, it is not involved. Unfortunately, its ex-Chief is involved, and his role has caused a lot of misgivings to neutral observers.

Then I can understand your condition ... and blind support to ....

I think you also believe this news ?? "Banerjee Committee"
BBC NEWS | South Asia | India train fire 'not mob attack'

And this is propaganda for you
Death for 11, life sentence for 20 in Godhra train burning case - Times Of India

 

[Joe Shearer]

Then I can understand your condition ... and blind support to ....

I think you also believe this news ?? "Banerjee Committee"
BBC NEWS | South Asia | India train fire 'not mob attack'

And this is propaganda for you
Death for 11, life sentence for 20 in Godhra train burning case - Times Of India

Is it your contention that the CBI is involved?

Do you have even a single line of confirmation about this?

 

[Ammyy]

Is it your contention that the CBI is involved?

Do you have even a single line of confirmation about this?

Supreme court made SIT because they dont believe in CBI for gujrat case... SIT already gives clean chit to Modi

2G scam is biggest proof and any can understand that CBI is now a lapdogs of congress and they are using it as tool

 

[Bhairava]

This canard has been set to rest. The history of the diversion of the bodies, the selection of a hospital located such that accessing it could be used to parade through the city, has already been reported in the Home Secretary’s testimony.

No canard has been set to "rest".

What actually happened doesn't logically support the accusation that he intended to parade the bodies, unless he was such a genius to parade it in the dead of the night @ 3:30 AM.

You are probably unaware that these can be over-ruled by a magistrate or by the higher administration, and the cremation can be undertaken directly.

You say that denial of this right would only have complicated things more. What complication are you referring to that exceeds the loss of life that took place?

The word "hindsight" comes into play here. You now say so with it's benefit, a luxury those officials did not enjoy when they decided to hand over the bodies to the relatives of the fallen.

As for the SIT, its role as an instrument of the law, or even as an impartial body acting in exercise of the powers granted it by the Supreme Court, is already grossly vitiated by the adverse testimony of a number of witnesses. Sanjeev Bhatt, for instance, one of a long line of policemen who have revolted against the distortion of the administrative machinery to achieve twisted political aims, but not the only one, has listed all the examples of failure of the SIT to respond to the production of evidence, to the pointing out of the destruction of evidence, and to the pointing out of the sustained intimidation of witnesses.

Citing the SIT to set Modi’s reputation on a pedestal is not likely to convince.

I do accept the rule of law. I also know that those who execute it may on occasion be misguided into misusing their powers and their authority.

A long list of witnesses who have been revealed to be tutored and certain "activists" even chargesheeted for that.

SIT, as you might know, has little interference from the state Govt considering it's powers directly stem from the SC and also SC's interest in the matter it will allow such bullying from the State Govt.

As of now, until proved otherwise, your allegations against SIT are just that and will be treated as such.

p.s.: Bringing in Sanjeev Bhatt is not strengthening your argument...Au contraire it is only weakening it. For example this is constable KD Panth who has filed a FIR against SB for tutoring him along with the GPCC president Arjun Modhwadhia.Link and Link