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The enemy and Pakistan Army

I actually think that you are wasting your time worrying about the BJP. They have tasted money. Any principles they might have had have long gone for a toss. They are now no more of a threat than the congress because they are not in the least interested in rocking the gravy train they feed of. Not that stupid, these chaps! The BJP & the Congress are far more similar when compared to the Republicans & the Democrats in the U.S. If the U.S. can live with the Republicans, we should be able to survive with the BJP.

Exactly...they are not the messiahs as one group tends to make it out or the absolute shaitans as others tend to make it. The BJP of yesteryears as a group wedded to a strong idealogy and being uncompromising on that is long gone to due coalition compulsions, tasting money as you put it and a leadership that has got used to status-quo. They are just the lesser of the two evils we have right now (or four evils when the third front and AK are taken into account) due to the semblance of democracy they have in the internal party structure and presence of some able administrators.

And you are giving credit to both Cong and BJP by comparing them with Dems and Reps.
 
whom are you kidding, time to come back from your utopia...

Has or has not your army subjugated the political process??

Did zia influence bhuttos murder?

what is the preamble to your constitution, is your army not selling it to pentagon??

Is bangladesh sitll east pak?

Not worth a response. Take off your Indian goggles to understand the situation.
Good luck.
 
Joe Shearer when did you become a hawk ?

Its being going under the radar for some time now.

Full blown break down the doors of the closet maybe a couple of days ago.

It takes a hawk to know a hawk.

The doves just get eaten.
 
Republicans and Democrats work together alot of times for the benefit of the nation whereas BJP and Congress start a mudslinging match to put the other one down.

KS alluded to something similar but my point here is limited to the fact that the Republicans say the darnedest things & sometimes seem far more crazy than the BJP has ever been. Have never seen BJP leaders argue that rape is essentially gods will or spend their time arguing against evolution. The fact that the BJP & INC don't get along is similar to the tea party members in the Republican party pretty much resisting all attempts to work with the democrats which almost took them to a fiscal cliff last year & actually was one of the stated reason for a rating downgrade.
 
What you fail to realize is that the institution you are propagating against is not an institution at all. It is the will and the pride of the people. I can understand that India is large country. I can understand that the majority have no affiliation with those that are serving. I can understand that your government sidelines your institutions, but in Pakistan this is not the case.

80% of our citizens are either army personnel or are affiliated to them. These people are not a separate entity, but a reflection of our nation. We think for ourselves as a unit, instead of whistling to your hegemonic tune.

Some generals may have implemented failed strategies, but their noble intentions were observed nonetheless.

With risk comes victory.

We are not deterred by the failure of our military, but are emboldened and inspired.

This is something that your old age and Victorian styled English will never grasp.

I understand that the Pakistani Army is a prominent institution within Pakistan. But herein lies the problem. The army being such a prominent institution influences the culture, the political scene and the nation's psyche. And the nation's view of history. Which is distorted for the most part.

Such a system that is based on ideology, religion, indoctrination and distorted truths cannot lead a nation. If you want proof, please look at your own political system over the last 65 years and the turmoil it has gone through. You army being the most prominent institution within your nation, with almost 80% of the people affiliated to it has still not been successful in uniting the nation as one. Despite almost 100% of the country being Muslim. You have separatist movements in Baluchistan, you have the Taliban wreaking havoc in the tribal regions and this prominent institution hasn't even stopped a foreign nation from bombing your own citizens! The reason? This prominent institution itself stands divided. This has not only cost you wars, but has also cost you credibility because Pakistan has been unable to form a steady foreign policy or a government for that matter.

And you as an educated individual support THIS organization? I am not saying you shouldnt support the men and women that serve, but the appreciation stops there. Pakistan will move from being dysfunctional to functional only when its citizens take control of governance. The military should always be under civilian control for Pakistan to flourish. But sadly this isnt the case. The military and the ISI wield too much of power, encourage extremist forces within Pakistan, force civilian governments to be weak and indecisive, consequently undermining Pakistan as a nation.

Therefore Pakistan's real enemies, lie within. They are your extremists, your mullahs, your all powerful generals and facilitating all of this is your psyche and your distorted view of history, which makes you look upon yourself as superior people subjugated by inferior Indians.
 
Much prefer BJP to Congress was it not that mama's boy Rahul Gandhi who said 'saffron' terror is a bigger threat to India than the likes of LET and SIMI and this is going to be the future of Congress, do not know whether to laugh or cry with that.

No what he said is somewhat true when you look deeply into it...but only the prescription given by him is shallow and which will not cure the disease.
 
I understand that the Pakistani Army is a prominent institution within Pakistan. But herein lies the problem. The army being such a prominent institution influences the culture, the political scene and the nation's psyche. And the nation's view of history. Which is distorted for the most part.

Such a system that is based on ideology, religion, indoctrination and distorted truths cannot lead a nation. If you want proof, please look at your own political system over the last 65 years and the turmoil it has gone through. You army being the most prominent institution within your nation, with almost 80% of the people affiliated to it has still not been successful in uniting the nation as one. Despite almost 100% of the country being Muslim. You have separatist movements in Baluchistan, you have the Taliban wreaking havoc in the tribal regions and this prominent institution hasn't even stopped a foreign nation from bombing your own citizens! The reason? This prominent institution itself stands divided. This has not only cost you wars, but has also cost you credibility because Pakistan has been unable to form a steady foreign policy or a government for that matter.

And you as an educated individual support THIS organization? I am not saying you shouldnt support the men and women that serve, but the appreciation stops there. Pakistan will move from being dysfunctional to functional only when its citizens take control of governance. The military should always be under civilian control for Pakistan to flourish. But sadly this isnt the case. The military and the ISI wield too much of power, encourage extremist forces within Pakistan, force civilian governments to be weak and indecisive, consequently undermining Pakistan as a nation.

Therefore Pakistan's real enemies, lie within. They are your extremists, your mullahs, your all powerful generals and facilitating all of this is your psyche and your distorted view of history, which makes you look upon yourself as superior people subjugated by inferior Indians.

Nice post, but you didn't get the gist of my previous post. We are the Pakistani army, and they are the Pakistani people. Now read your post again after reading this.
 
In what way is it somewhat true? when there have been multiple bomb blast conducted by LET and SIMi how many bomb blast have saffron groups done? 2-3 max and that was after we had a wave of blast in India.

Dude I am not even mentioning the bomb blasts that are now alleged to be done by the fringe right wing groups. I am talking about a much larger picture. Majoritarianism can always be much more effective than nay minority mobilization. But my point is just condemning majoritarianism while turning a blind eye to others or doing mukh-mukha to secularism will not make majoritarianism magically vanish. This is the thing the pseudo-secularists need to get into their heads. Their blaming of majoritarianism is fine - but they dont have any solutions to fighting it except prescribe solutions that actually increase majoritarianism rather than reduce it !
 
Much prefer BJP to Congress was it not that mama's boy Rahul Gandhi who said 'saffron' terror is a bigger thread to India than the likes of LET and SIMI and this is going to be the future of Congress, do not know whether to laugh or cry with that.

That's not untrue actually, Pakistan is a good example of what happens when an internal threat becomes front & centre. Internal fighting is far more dangerous than any external threat that India now faces simply because it is far more difficult to deal with. While the threat of saffron terror is overblown & after the last couple of years is probably less of a threat than it appeared when the statement was made, it is not something that should be underestimated.
 
What you fail to realize is that the institution you are propagating against is not an institution at all. It is the will and the pride of the people. I can understand that India is large country. I can understand that the majority have no affiliation with those that are serving. I can understand that your government sidelines your institutions, but in Pakistan this is not the case.

80% of our citizens are either army personnel or are affiliated to them. These people are not a separate entity, but a reflection of our nation. We think for ourselves as a unit, instead of whistling to your hegemonic tune.

Some generals may have implemented failed strategies, but their noble intentions were observed nonetheless.

With risk comes victory.

We are not deterred by the failure of our military, but are emboldened and inspired.

This is something that your old age and Victorian styled English will never grasp.

Heh. I wish a tenth of this enthusiasm and zeal were to go into thinking through positions taken, rather than into upholding hollow shams.

It is all very well for an institution to represent the will and pride of the people. That does not allow the people to abdicate responsibility. Whether it is a pet or a child or an institution, accountability does matter, and seeking accountability is not in any way a dilution of the will and pride that back those, pet, child or institution. Seeking accountability is in no way, for instance, an absence of affiliation, and asking for accountability does not amount to sidelining, whether we are speaking of an institution, or refusing to give in to our child's tantrums, or providing and encouraging the use of kitty litter.

Our government, unlike those of some other nations, are accountable, and therefore hold every institution accountable. It would not do to go to the country and state that we have no clue, as a government, of what our pride and joy has been doing, and that we will continue to have no clue as we do not wish to bruise their tender susceptibilities by asking them what they have been up to.

Some of your remarks make for very entertaining reading. for instance,

80% of our citizens are either army personnel or are affiliated to them. These people are not a separate entity, but a reflection of our nation. We think for ourselves as a unit, instead of whistling to your hegemonic

Every institution is a reflection of the nation - every one. You obviously think of the Supreme Court, for instance, as having dropped down from Mars; or the national government as being an import from Whitehall. They are not. They are obviously part and parcel of the nation of Pakistan. So saying that the armed forces are not a separate entity is plainly meaningless; the traffic constable may be one of the 80% of the population affiliated to the armed forces, but he still belongs to the police force, an entity by itself, and the armed forces are the armed forces, three entities by themselves. He does not rush off to the border in times of trouble - the border nowadays seemingly one that runs through your country - but does his job. He is of the people, too, but he is not the people; neither are the military the people, they are simply of the people.

It is these failures to separate your military from your national identity that have led to half your entire existence being under military dictatorship, a series of dictatorships which cost you heavily. Each of which was ultimately, behind all the protestations of national purpose, merely an exercise in self-indulgence by a series of self-indulgent men.

It is best that you stop thinking of yourself as a unit, as that thinking is merely hypocrisy. If you had truly thought of yourself as a unit, there would be no sectarian violence in your country, no ethnic violence in Karachi, no shootings of people dragged off a bus in Swat, as the question of one section of a unit battling another would not have arisen. Nor would you have had a succession of terrorist organizations victimizing citizens of the country, in flat defiance of whatever the military would like to see.

You spoke of generals who implemented failed strategies, and said that these were some generals. If you inspect the record with even cursory attention, you will find that Edwardian English would have served you better than your own version, and in fact, EVERY general has had strategies that failed, that there has not been even a single strategic victory won by any general.

Sadly, the generals took risks, sometimes foolhardy risks. Even more sadly for a nation that identifies itself so wholly with its military, and its military leaders, including the generals, none of these risks have led to victory; instead, they have led to defeat. Ultimately all that your last post amounts to can be summed up by a word used in Edwardian English, a rhodomontade. If failures do not deter you but embolden and inspire you, it is clear that you have discovered the secret of perpetual motion.
 
I wish there was a corruption free party which focused on development and the economy to vote for as im sick with both Congress and BJP they both game players.


There are no magic bullets in democracy. Such a party, and a general climate opposing corruption, arises out of the people, it does not appear out of thin air. Besides, it is not just development and the economy that matter, but the principles of governance as well. In fact, more.
 
Saffron terror is helped by images we saw in Mumbai with the rioting and the attack on the Buddah statue in UP that would be the biggest recruitment for them, without proper law and order the Govt which is Congress at the moment is to blame for that.

Ignorance is not an excuse.

The attacks on the Buddha statues in the UP needed to have been taken up by the law-and-order machinery. Law and order is a state subject, and the centre has little power to intervene (Gujarat 2002). The government in the UP at that time was NOT the Congress.

In general, an unlawful act is not a justification for another retaliatory unlawful act. Two wrongs do not make a right.
 
There are no magic bullets in democracy. Such a party, and a general climate opposing corruption, arises out of the people, it does not appear out of thin air. Besides, it is not just development and the economy that matter, but the principles of governance as well. In fact, more.

Principles of Governance matters only to the top elite who have everything in life and whose own fiscal security does not depend on what the Govt does or doesnt. For the mango man its one and only the economy/development/adminstration that matters.
 
At least we should take the first step and bar anyone with a criminal record from becoming a member of parliament that is a standard in most countries.

A good point, but one that can work only when coupled with a de-congestion of the judicial system. In the west, courts work quickly and judgements are delivered quickly. In India, not so. All I need to do to scupper your electoral chances is to file a false case against you.

Can you name me the countries where people with criminal records who have completed their sentences are barred from standing for election?
 
Ignorance is not an excuse.

The attacks on the Buddha statues in the UP needed to have been taken up by the law-and-order machinery. Law and order is a state subject, and the centre has little power to intervene (Gujarat 2002). The government in the UP at that time was NOT the Congress.

In general, an unlawful act is not a justification for another retaliatory unlawful act. Two wrongs do not make a right.

No the Govt in power is the SP as regards the Buddha and Mahavira idols - the baap of Congress in such issues. Regards Azad Maidan it was Congress. And I dont like you feigning that you did not get the point he was trying to convey. Inaction of the Govt on such sensitive issues due to electoral calculations are THE biggest reason why right wing grows. And its not ignorance. It is something that is much more complex.
 

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