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The Ground-zero mosque, continued

hyperbole. if its blocked, that'll just mean that one particular mosque was disallowed and nothing more.

mosques will continue to be built just about everywhere else.

It is not mere hyperbole - read the NYT and AFP articles from a week ago about over the same kind of bigots opposing about half a dozen other mosques in various States around the US.

Also keep in mind the progression in Western Europe, from Islamophobic rhetoric, to minarets and Burqa's being banned.
 
It is not mere hyperbole - read the NYT and AFP articles from a week ago about over the same kind of bigots opposing about half a dozen other mosques in various States around the US.

Also keep in mind the progression in Western Europe, from Islamophobic rhetoric, to minarets and Burqa's being banned.

none of that amounts to islam being the enemy. whats going on in some parts of western europe is about legislating islam to conform to host nations' values on certain narrow parameters. to be honest, i am sick of blaring minarets too. would you call me an islamophobe to detest having noise pumped 5 times a day into my ears? its happening these days and its infringing on my freedom and sanity.
 
The name change cannot remove the symbolism that the word 'Cordoba' conveyed -- that it is a triumphalist monument. The proverbial cat is out of the bag.

No Cordoba is never taken as some sort of glaoting over the killing of non-muslims among muslim history. Not evenamong sensible Jewish historians. In fact it is called the golden age of Judaism unless some revisionist historians who are hell bent on showing muslims as worshippers of monkey gods or likewise would want to say otherwise.


The idea of Cordoba was to revive that spirit of multiculturalism that eventually resulted in bringing Europe out of its dark age. It was symbolism of after the dark times that hadbeen set upon the world after the 9/11 attacks would herald a goldenage of mutual co-operation.


But in the spirit of co-operation andcompromise, the idea of Cordoba was dropped and Park51 was taken.

Ofcourse now that the crazies on the xenophobic end of hijacked the issue from sensible debate on setiments and compromise it doesn't matter if the centre is built a 100 blocks away, itwill still invite protest. You can see that from opposition of new Islamic centres being built from East coast to west.

I will not hold any opinion on the matter now. Because even if it is built it will lose the blow it was suppose to give AQ types.

Personally, America has lost a big oppurtunity that would have dealth a death blow to the AQ type America-haters. This was the intended symbolism that has become a missed oppurtunity now.
 
Your voice needs to be heard, along with the voices of others. Do you think your friend would like to see Cordoba House built, since it would be very easy to convert it to a shrine to those who murdered him?
Again the same strawman - outlandish what iff's are not a rational basis for opposition.
You know me better than that, AM. If I can't back up what I claim I usually don't bring it up in the first place: link
While you may not outright 'manufacture' you do have a tendency to distort or 'misinterpret' events to fit your own biases and agenda. Take this case for example - it appears to be more a case of politics within the Muslim community and the desire of the Saudis to control the mosque than some 'extremist takeover' or 'extremist vs moderate' clash. Reading through the site I certainly could see nothing that supported your earlier characterization of the dispute.

One thing need not lead to another. A lease is, however, a contract with an individual, and through him to the larger community. It would be a moral in addition to a legal commitment by Cordoba House to set limits on what they will and will not do. The details of such an agreement need not be a concern now as much as the principle.
When opponents of the cultural center are already pushing one bigoted and irrational position, then why should one not assume that down the road another irrational and bigoted position will be pushed? We can already see from the opposition to multiple mosques around the US that this issue really has very little to do with 'mosque at Ground Zero' - the demagogues invoking 9/11 merely see it as the a very handy way to whip up anti-Muslim prejudice.
A suggestive demonstration that the act of building Cordoba House cannot be morally justified unless the grief of 9-11 is ignored.

The organizers of Cordoba House claim that they aim to build "a community center guided by the universal values of all religions in their truest form – peace, compassion, generosity, and respect for all." Yet if those values don't already exist in Muslims like yourself, A.M., how can building Cordoba House help?
If people choose to hang their 'grief' on prejudice and bigotry, and choose to get 'offended' because of prejudice and bigotry, then I see no reason to respect that 'sensitivity'.

Funny, that you once again resort to blaming the victim here - American Muslims are not the ones making irrational demands based on prejudice and bigotry - American Muslims are not the ones refusing to allow a religious community center for another religious community being constructed - American Muslims are not the ones hurling insults and invective at another religious community and in essence branding the entire community and their faith as some sort of 'terrorist cult'.

The only people lacking 'peace, compassion, generosity, and respect for all' are quite obviously the Americans opposing the construction of this community center.
 
none of that amounts to islam being the enemy. whats going on in some parts of western europe is about legislating islam to conform to host nations' values on certain narrow parameters. to be honest, i am sick of blaring minarets too. would you call me an islamophobe to detest having noise pumped 5 times a day into my ears? its happening these days and its infringing on my freedom and sanity.

You are mixing up the Indian environment with Europe. In Europe there is no "blaring of minarets" because no religious institutions are allowed to do so.

In India, as we all know, all religious places temple and mosques use loudspeakers.
 
none of that amounts to islam being the enemy. whats going on in some parts of western europe is about legislating islam to conform to host nations' values on certain narrow parameters. to be honest, i am sick of blaring minarets too. would you call me an islamophobe to detest having noise pumped 5 times a day into my ears? its happening these days and its infringing on my freedom and sanity.
Who said the minarets had to have speakers in them in Europe? The mosques would function under all local 'noise regulations'.

That is just an example of the rubbish and propaganda spewed by Islamophobes.

And yes, when people make irrational demands based on prejudice and bigotry over opposing the construction of religious centers, then that does reflect a deep seated prejudice and animosity towards a community, and when significant percentages of the population start subscribing to those views, as appears to be the case in the US, then Asim's characterization is correct.
 
An Indian's take on the debate:

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Opinion | Coercive assimilation
Mukul Kesavan
For an Indian, the controversy about the proposal to build a mosque and cultural centre two blocks from Ground Zero is instructive. When polled, the plan, cleared by municipal authorities in New York, was opposed by a broad majority in America as a whole and by more than half of New York’s famously liberal citizens. Sarah Palin asked its Muslim sponsors to give it up: “Ground Zero Mosque supporters,” she tweeted, “doesn’t it stab you in the heart, as it does ours throughout the heartland? Peaceful Muslims, pls refudiate.”

With the exception of Mayor Bloomberg, who has strongly supported the mosque project, Republicans have lined up behind Palin, driven both by their personal convictions as well as popular feeling, since the mid-term elections due later this year are an opportunity to snatch one house of Congress, possibly both, from the Democrats. President Obama in a Ramazan meeting with American Muslims seemed to endorse the mosque, then ‘clarified’ later that he was merely supporting the right of Muslims to build a place of worship wherever it was allowed by local regulations, and not expressing an opinion on the merits or otherwise of building the mosque in question.

The mosque’s opponents have argued that while there may well be a constitutional right to build, good sense and consideration demand that the right not be exercised. Charles Krauthammer argued that just as the Japanese hadn’t tried to build a Japanese Cultural Centre at Pearl Harbour, Muslim Americans should respect American public opinion enough to walk this proposal back. It wasn’t a freedom of religion issue: Muslims were welcome to build mosques elsewhere — just not next to Ground Zero.

There’s a plausibility to the anti-mosque position. Indians have lived with thin-skinned sensibilities for so long, that we are the world’s champions at airing and understanding hurt feelings. We ban books, criminalize paintings, lean on authors and bully artists because some group’s feelings have been or might be hurt. It’s likely that some desis think that the plan to build the Cordoba House (as the mosque and cultural centre project is called) two blocks away from a site that has come to embody Muslim extremism is offensive and provocative.

Sadanand Dhume, journalist and commentator on fundamentalist Islam, said as much in a television discussion about the proposed mosque. He said that if the mosque’s sponsors were seeking to promote understanding and reconciliation, the mosque near Ground Zero was amongst the stupidest ways of setting about it because the proposal had clearly alienated non-Muslim Americans. Dhume recognized the constitutional right of American Muslims to build the mosque, but made it clear that the people who opposed the exercise of that right were neither bigoted nor unreasonable and the sponsors of the mosque ought to be properly mindful of their feelings.

Barkha Dutt, the anchor for the programme in which Dhume spoke on the controversy, said at the end that a willingness to break out of the straitjacket of political correctness (that is, being open to the idea that the letter of a constitutional right to worship ought not always trump the spirit of sensible accommodation) was a good thing. Put that way, surely Palin and Krauthammer and Dhume are right?

No, they aren’t. They are neither right nor reasonable. Arguments like this always, without exception, represent the thin end of an intolerant, majoritarian wedge.

Dhume, for example, has written elsewhere in praise of Sarkozy’s determination to ban the burqa in France. It’s worth following his arguments in some detail because on the matter of Muslims and the West, Dhume reliably represents the new majoritarianism. In his article for YaleGlobal, a Yale University website, Dhume contrasts Sarkozy’s opposition to the burqa with Obama’s unwillingness to make laws against individual costume, to the latter’s disadvantage. The French parliamentary commission’s report recommending that the burqa be banned in public facilities like buses, the Metro and hospitals, constitutes, according to Dhume, a proper recognition of the ideological threat posed by radical Islam.

The same man who would, for the sake of a majority’s sensibilities, have American Muslims back off from the Cordoba House project, thinks it’s a good thing that France has moved to ban the burqa because the 2,000 women who wear the burqa in that country represent, according to Dhume (and here he approvingly quotes a French legislator), “the tip [of] a black tide of fundamentalism”. Dhume argues that every time a woman in a burqa boards a bus in Paris or enters a public hospital in Lyon, Muslim fundamentalists think they’ve won. Ergo, he concludes grandly, “[r]olling back the burqa contradicts this triumphalist narrative”.

The costume choices of 2,000 women from France’s poorest minority become an existential threat to the West in Dhume’s lurid narrative. And France’s move to partially ban the burqa is not just good in itself, it’s also a sign of other good things to come. Dhume explicitly sees France as the necessary vanguard in the West’s struggle to contain Muslims and Islam: “As a birthplace of the Enlightenment, and the principal political architect of a unified Europe, the French example is a bellwether for other countries on the continent struggling to assimilate large communities of recent Muslim immigrants. The Swiss recently voted to disallow minarets on mosques; and Geert Wilders, Holland’s most popular politician and the maker of the polemical anti-Islam film Fitna, faces a trial over his outspoken criticism of the faith. Newspapers report that Italy, Germany and Denmark, among others, are already considering similar anti-burqa laws.”

Notice, in this passage, the mention of the Swiss prohibition of minarets on mosques. Dhume sees the banning of the burqa in France (and possibly in Italy, Germany and Denmark) and the denial of minarets in Switzerland as part of the same effort in ‘assimilation’. In this world view, Cordoba House near Ground Zero is a bad idea because of the majority thinks it is, in the same way as minarets are a bad idea because a majority of Swiss people think they are. This isn’t a defence of republican virtue; it’s a little paean to to coercive assimilation.

Dhume’s instinctive majoritarianism is explicitly on display when, in the same essay, he argues that France’s aggressive engagement with the burqa is superior to America’s hands-off approach because France’s position “strikes a balance between individual rights and the concerns of the larger community. (According to a poll published in the magazine Le Point, nearly six out of ten French citizens support the ban.)”

So that’s all right then. Armed with this rudimentary compass, Sadanand Dhume sets out to find the West’s moral North and, to no one’s surprise, he consistently reaches a place where — regardless of law, principle or right — minorities properly defer to majority feeling. The same writer who would defend Geert Wilders right to robustly criticize Islam as also the right of Danish cartoonists to lampoon Islam’s prophet, doesn’t expect Western majorities to acknowledge or respect the rights of Muslims to wear what they want or worship where they please. In fact, he sees Western moves to curb those rights as a virtuous defence of republican values.

As I follow the Cordoba House controversy, I know that I’ve been here before. After the Babri Masjid was razed in 1992, a majoritarian common sense evolved about the resolution of the dispute. ‘Reasonable’, ‘moderate’ public men and women argued that Muslims, regardless of the historical merits of the Ramjanmabhoomi case, ought to defer to the Hindu majority’s sensibilities in this one case. To concede the site as a gesture of goodwill would, they argued, earn Muslims enormous credit and disarm militant Hindus. To persist in laying claim to Ayodhya would merely aggravate the dispute, consolidate Hindu militancy and marginalize Muslims.

A decade later, with the Bharatiya Janata Party defeated and out of office, the realpolitik force of that argument is a little dissipated. Not to concede Ayodhya to a violent majoritarian mobilization was clearly the right thing to do at the time for anyone who took republican and constitutional principle seriously. If there’s a lesson to be learnt from the Cordoba House and the Babri Masjid controversies, it is this: if you want to be principled about not ‘appeasing’ minorities, it’s useful not to spend your polemical energies pandering to majorities.

I meant to point this out earlier, but this is precisely why Pakistanis have criticized Dhume's analysis on Pakistanis and Pakistan - he has a deep seated bias, and quite clearly subscribes to the nutter 'Islamofascism is going to take over the world' crowd.
 
Who said the minarets had to have speakers in them in Europe? The mosques would function under all local 'noise regulations'.

That is just an example of the rubbish and propaganda spewed by Islamophobes.

And yes, when people make irrational demands based on prejudice and bigotry over opposing the construction of religious centers, then that does reflect a deep seated prejudice and animosity towards a community, and when significant percentages of the population start subscribing to those views, as appears to be the case in the US, then Asim's characterization is correct.

oh cmon. enemy is too strong a description. switzerland is unique in the minaret ban being a direct democracy. the mosque brouhaha is a one off in the US and a special case due to the location.

btw, demands to broadcast call to prayer have been made in the west too. i think its natural for the west to see islam as 'alien' due to the vast difference in values. but enemy is taking it too far.

now i do understand that the US right can get very very nutty, but calling this enmity is still taking it too far.
 
Again the same strawman - outlandish what iff's are not a rational basis for opposition.
I don't think so. There is an unsettling history of Muslims seeking non-Muslim support, promising they will seek amity, and once in power doing everything they can to create the opposite.

While you may not outright 'manufacture' you do have a tendency to distort or 'misinterpret' events to fit your own biases and agenda.
This is possible.

Take this case for example - it appears to be more a case of politics within the Muslim community and the desire of the Saudis to control the mosque than some 'extremist takeover' or 'extremist vs moderate' clash.
I was there. It was an angry affair. (And I assure you, because these guys day after day rode the same Metrobus I did, bragged about their role, and would exit at the IC, that Iranian revolutionary "students" had a big hand in it - something the site I linked to oddly fails to mention.)

When opponents of the cultural center are already pushing one bigoted and irrational position -
Grief isn't always rational, but sometimes it should be respected anyway.

- why should one not assume that down the road another irrational and bigoted position will be pushed?We can already see from the opposition to multiple mosques around the US -
As far as I know local issues with mosques have more to do with building codes and adding turning lanes, parking, and traffic lights to handle the increased traffic. These issues get settled pretty quickly.

American Muslims are not the ones making irrational demands based on prejudice and bigotry -
Careful with your generalizations. Not all American Muslims support the Cordoba House project.

The only people lacking 'peace, compassion, generosity, and respect for all' are quite obviously the Americans opposing the construction of this community center.
No. I've pointed out to you time and time again that it is the families of the 9-11 victims who oppose the project. They feel that respect for their loss should be primary, that if their wishes aren't respected they can never have peace.

That's also why the Twin Towers won't be rebuilt - the families insist on a memorial on their footprint and no skyscrapers. The replacements will be built in a slightly different spot. I admit it isn't fully rational - WTC 7 was rebuilt - but I understand them because I also want Auschwitz preserved rather than bulldozed into farmland or overshadowed by a nunnery.
 
If the Americans block the mosque they will be officially declaring Islam and all Muslim kind as the enemy. There is no other way of justifying, legally or morally, that this mosque cannot be built.
Then what does calling non-muslims 'unclean' equal to...???
 
oh cmon. enemy is too strong a description. switzerland is unique in the minaret ban being a direct democracy. the mosque brouhaha is a one off in the US and a special case due to the location.
The rhetoric being spouted by the opponents to mosques around the US, not just the NYC cultural center, lends a lot of credence to the 'enemy' description.
btw, demands to broadcast call to prayer have been made in the west too. i think its natural for the west to see islam as 'alien' due to the vast difference in values. but enemy is taking it too far.

now i do understand that the US right can get very very nutty, but calling this enmity is still taking it too far.
Demands are every communities right - Church bells ring out in many places as well, and if a nation is going to claim 'separation of Church and State', then it would be a legitimate demand to ask for permission for broadcast calls to prayer within the local regulations and restrictions.

Again, things start off small - right now these nutters are a significant minority, and some of their demands are finding the support of a significant majority. Doesn't take a majority of extremists to vilify a community, just a majority of people acquiescing to the extremist rhetoric and not standing up to prejudice and bigotry, as unfortunately appears to be the case in the case of the NYC Community Center with 70% supporting the extremist position.
 
Again, things start off small - right now these nutters are a significant minority, and some of their demands are finding the support of a significant majority. Doesn't take a majority of extremists to vilify a community, just a majority of people acquiescing to the extremist rhetoric and not standing up to prejudice and bigotry, as unfortunately appears to be the case in the case of the NYC Community Center with 70% supporting the extremist position.
This reminds me of some of the arguments on here regarding Jews -- that if so many countries hate them, there must something wrong with them. The implication here is that might as well go along with the majority and hate them anyway.
 
all classical schools of sharia are incompatible with modern polity, plain and simple. a very watered down school of sharia would really be heterodox and not islam in any real sense.
Yes so says you? Why should we let you define ourselves.

Muslims have a greater and older tradition in religious tolerance than history of most other civilizations. The teachings of tolerance all exist within the confines of Islam, its only a matter of putting it real world practice, once again. Here's a fella who has finally started talking about building bridges between Islam and the west and has no demonstrable evidence of peddling any extremist ideology yet you're rejecting all overtures of peace and harmony?

Does that not make you the violent one? Does that not make you the intolerant one?
 
All i see on this thread is Yap, Yap, Yap... Would it have been such a big deal if a temple were built there? Im guessing not really!

To Bigotry, No Sanction
 
Muslims have a greater and older tradition in religious tolerance than history of most other civilizations. The teachings of tolerance all exist within the confines of Islam, its only a matter of putting it real world practice -

To Bigotry, No Sanction

"Tolerance" is by far inferior to "rights":
The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent national gifts. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

It would be inconsistent with the frankness of my character not to avow that I am pleased with your favorable opinion of my Administration, and fervent wishes for my felicity. May the children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and figtree, and there shall be none to make him afraid. May the father of all mercies scatter light and not darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy.

G. Washington, Letter to Touro Synagogue
 

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