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Who will lose Pakistan?

bigmoneymaker

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One of the toughest challenges facing the administration right now is figuring out how to maintain aid flows to Pakistan. The big hurdle is getting the Congress to approve more dollars for a country that seems to have abetted America's public enemy number one for years, is directly supporting a variety of major terrorist organizations, has a nuclear program that was conceived by a man, A.Q. Khan, who once affiliated with those organizations, undoubtedly is siphoning off our aid dollars to support those nuclear programs or for other unwholesome ends, and as a consequence doesn't seem very much like a top candidate to receive ever more largesse from a cash-strapped country that has already pumped $20 billion into the place.

But before we even get to that hurdle, there is a debate going on within the administration about what programs we should continue to try to fund. Administration officials are wary of being put in the position of defending the indefensible up on the Hill. Some -- notably from the intelligence community -- feel that Pakistan has become less cooperative on counter-terror efforts (despite all public rhetoric to the contrary by U.S. spokespeople.) Some -- including members of the top military brass -- feel that we have both some dependable friends in Pakistan and that given the opposition those friends face, this is precisely the wrong time to turn our back on them.

There is even concern that some of the aid programs we have that are purely humanitarian and undeniably need-based, like those still responding to the horrific toll caused by last year's flooding, will both become lightning rods for critics and that perhaps they ought to be administered differently to ensure that funds get directly to those in needs and that they are not channeled through unreliable Pakistani government channels.

With high profile visits to that country from top U.S. officials including Secretary Clinton and Senator Kerry looming, these issues are heating up in planning sessions. To say that there are as many or more points of view on the subject as there were on how to dispatch bin Laden would be an understatement according to one individual in a cabinet agency I spoke to this week.

It is thus very important for President Obama, Secretary Clinton and responsible leaders in the Congress to summon the political courage to publicly state in no uncertain terms that this is no time to cut off those in Pakistan who are sympathetic to and supportive of our interests. The country may be full of dangerous characters and factions that are actively enemies of the U.S. But consider where we would be if we simply cut ties with the country, withdrew support from our friends, and thus undercut them dramatically.

We should do everything we can to ensure our aid dollars are not squandered or directed to programs that exacerbated the risks to the U.S. and our allies. We should simultaneously work to contain the threats from Pakistan through active work with India, China, Afghanistan, Russia, the Saudis and the other Gulf countries. But we should also accept that even if some of the funds go missing and some of our deep and worrisome problems with Pakistan remain unresolved, active engagement and supporting of those within the country who can help us is absolutely critical - more now than ever before.

The costs of losing all support in Pakistan and possibly of undercutting moderate government there to the benefit of more extremist, anti-American forces or, alternatively in ways that send the country or parts of the country further down the road to failed-state status, are vastly higher than any aid programs currently contemplated. They are in fact, probably higher than all the aid pumped into the country to date. Losing Pakistan, putting its nuclear arsenal at risk, indirectly advancing the cause of extremists, invites a protracted terror risk to the world and raises the likelihood of further regional destabilization and conflict.

Manage programs more carefully. Demand more direct distribution of funds. Audit programs more carefully. Choose who we help and how fastidiously. But by no means should we succumb to the temptation to act on the emotions of the moment and undertake steps that while intended to punish our enemies would only have the effect of undercutting those friends we do have in one of the most treacherous and important places in the world today. The stakes are too high. And no one should want their name to be the one invoked when it is asked as it inevitably would be were we simply to turn our back on the country, "Who lost Pakistan?"

Who will lose Pakistan? | David Rothkopf
 
There is no losing Pakistan -- Whether civilian government or military governments, we can be sure that both will be heavy on ideology and light on economic sense and discipline -- Which means Pakistan will always want to be around in the hope that some crumbs can be had.

Much is made of extremists in Pakistan - easy, steady on, who are these extremists seeking to lord their god over? Whom do they kill and seek to subjugate? The answer to this is not the West or even India, it's Pakistanis and in particular, Muslims - so again, no need to fear and no need to spend more money chasing bad money -- If Pakistanis are content to live in a giant open air prison, let them and thank heavens they are in that prison instead of polluting other political economies with their malignant ideology sold as a "complete way of life" -- I mean just ask them, how they like their "complete way of life" -- and if they really dig it, well, then leave them to their valhala - and if they don't. well, there are examples all over the world that liberty must be won by those who value it, there is no other way to secure it.
 
There is no losing Pakistan -- Whether civilian government or military governments, we can be sure that both will be heavy on ideology and light on economic sense and discipline -- Which means Pakistan will always want to be around in the hope that some crumbs can be had.

Much is made of extremists in Pakistan - easy, steady on, who are these extremists seeking to lord their god over? Whom do they kill and seek to subjugate? The answer to this is not the West or even India, it's Pakistanis and in particular, Muslims - so again, no need to fear and no need to spend more money chasing bad money -- If Pakistanis are content to live in a giant open air prison, let them and thank heavens they are in that prison instead of polluting other political economies with their malignant ideology sold as a "complete way of life" -- I mean just ask them, how they like their "complete way of life" -- and if they really dig it, well, then leave them to their valhala - and if they don't. well, there are examples all over the world that liberty must be won by those who value it, there is no other way to secure it.

No Muse, it is not too much that is made of extremists in Pakistan. While I agree with you that these extremists at the moment are looking forward to subjugate the Pakistani populace, I also add that this strong focus (of the extremists) on Pakistan is only momentary, and only the first step in their... umm... shall we call it crusade?

These extremists at the moment are focused only on Pakistan because that is the easiest and nearest target. The other forces (the US and most of the west) that are after these extremists even more ferociously would be the main target, but they are better protected, and much far away. Also, at the moment, these extremists are under constant attack by the drones, ISAF, PA, and NA so the pressure is hard on them to keep them from expanding the way they want to. Otherwise what do you think were the 1993, 9/11, 7/11, etc bombings all about? The moment this constant pressure is gone, they will expand all over the world and cross all international borders.

It is not that the Pakistanis love to live in the prison you mentioned, or even that they deserve it. It is just that there is an utter lack of solid and constant state policy that is turning Pakistan into the most indecisive state in the world. This indecisiveness comes from the desire to ride both the horses at the same time - keep the extremists, and keep fighting the WoT (for whatever reasons). Such conflicting actions have lead to a chaotic state policy and poor management of the limited resources at hand, resulting in continuous loss on both the fronts. And as always, the common man has ended up bearing the burden of policymakers' incompetence.


To all other Pakistani members: I thanked Muse's post not because he wrote critically about Pakistan, but because he has the courage to write so. While I disagree with him, I admire his efforts to look at the situation with a non-Pakistani eye.
 
How interesting that you feel the need to explain thanking me -- for my courage, as you see it - well, an interesting post - Yes, certainly, international aspect is there, but I am more persuaded that winning Pakistan is more important - they will win more than a state, they want their Islamic "Bum" - and that means killing a lot of Pakistanis

You say:
It is not that the Pakistanis love to live in the prison you mentioned, or even that they deserve it. It is just that there is an utter lack of solid and constant state policy that is turning Pakistan into the most indecisive state in the world

See, it's immaterial why they are indecisive (see Republic of Konuzistan thread) -- it's important that they are - you know there are more pressing problems in the world than Pakistan -
 
Yes Muse, my definition is indeed a little different from those of others. For me courage specifically means the dare to venture your mind into heretic thoughts. It comes from the confidence that current philosophy will remain unchanged.

I have read thousands and thousand of posts in this forum, and have found this ability to be an acute rarity among Pakistani members. Hence the 'Thank'. And well, many of the Pakistanis that are thanked by Indians, often run the risk of getting questioned or persecuted within the forum, so I felt the need to explain it too.


I hope by Konuzistan you meant Khuzestan in Iran, because I could not find any link that would match the word Konuzistan. It would be very helpful if you could please get me the link to the read you mentioned.
 
hope by Konuzistan you meant Khuzestan in Iran, because I could not find any link that would match the word Konuzistan

http://www.defence.pk/forums/national-political-issues/108657-republic-konfuzistan.html

many of the Pakistanis that are thanked by Indians, often run the risk of getting questioned or persecuted within the forum, so I felt the need to explain it too.

Don't worry about zeros, if all they are here for is too engage in bigotry, they are zeros and I am surprised you would give them time of day - plus they just such kids, one feels sorry for them.
 
Yes Muse, my definition is indeed a little different from those of others. For me courage specifically means the dare to venture your mind into heretic thoughts. It comes from the confidence that current philosophy will remain unchanged.

I have read thousands and thousand of posts in this forum, and have found this ability to be an acute rarity among Pakistani members. Hence the 'Thank'. And well, many of the Pakistanis that are thanked by Indians, often run the risk of getting questioned or persecuted within the forum, so I felt the need to explain it too.


I hope by Konuzistan you meant Khuzestan in Iran, because I could not find any link that would match the word Konuzistan. It would be very helpful if you could please get me the link to the read you mentioned.

I havent exactly encountered that phenomenon too much throughout my time here..
Apart from "sore posters".. if there is a valid point. it should be appreciated..

And if I may take some undeserved and callous liberty with muse's post..I would say that he is(maybe) stating that the bigger issue for us here is who will lose "Islam in Pakistan".. rather than anything else.
 
Muse---Patanjali,

I want to thank you for what you posted here----got my brain doing a couple of cartwheels---. Patanjali---excuse me please---I thanked your post first and read the second post later-----.

When pakistan realizes and makes it an official version that the destinies of pak and india are intertwined for ever and ever----and when indians in india and elsewhere realize and acknowledge the fact that they cannot run away from their shadow----that would be a moment of true enlightenment for both the nations.

If britain could sit down with the irish to carve out a peace agfreement even when the ira were blasting mortars at 10 downing street and instead of blaming each other for those attacks---saner heads prevailed---where both the parties recognized the fact that in order to overcome extremeism---both the govt and people will have to overlook those terrorist acts for the bigger good that will come out of the peace.

They both killed terrorism in a different manner---by making peace----otherwise they both would have been lobbing mortars at each other.

So---one of the countries will have to take the high road to peace----and as is customary---it is always the stronger of the two nations that takes the lead in making those overtures and enforcing the manifesto of peace---.

In the longer run----the bigger nation gets bigger rewards---the only problem is in taking the first steps with resolving every problem regardless of whatever the hurdle maybe.

We just need to look out of these little hell holes that we are living in and look at our disputes through a different lens.
 
I havent exactly encountered that phenomenon too much throughout my time here..
Apart from "sore posters".. if there is a valid point. it should be appreciated..

And if I may take some undeserved and callous liberty with muse's post..I would say that he is(maybe) stating that the bigger issue for us here is who will lose "Islam in Pakistan".. rather than anything else.

Sir,

Historically it is always the nation and citizens that lose the end game---the religion doesnot. It pops back up---and nations do pop up as well but they too take a battering----we always pay a very heavy price for our over blown egos.
 
Winning - its all about Winning , and Pakistan is win - win situation - Terror or no Terror we get the Money , the girl and more F16 Winning

Pakistan is like a warlock , a warlock of destruction un phased by the lunatics in congress , who say big words to bring us down.

But Pakistan had 42 F16 , and now we got 70 F16 and 40 JF17 Thunder, winning

What does OBL got nothing zilch he is a dead man - plus we got Stealth secrets now another winning while OBAMA is losing for his idiotic policies , Pakistani politicians are losing but still winning -
 
Winning - its all about Winning , and Pakistan is win - win situation - Terror or no Terror we get the Money , the girl and more F16 Winning

Pakistan is like a warlock , a warlock of destruction un phased by the lunatics in congress , who say big words to bring us down.

But Pakistan had 42 F16 , and now we got 70 F16 and 40 JF17 Thunder, winning

What does OBL got nothing zilch he is a dead man - plus we got Stealth secrets now another winning while OBAMA is losing for his idiotic policies , Pakistani politicians are losing but still winning -

If you are serious, no wonder Pakistan is where it is today. If this is what thinking of PA is, get F16 no matter what, if we get them we are winning.
 
Zardari the sold US agent wil lose pakistan just like his illicit susar lost east pakistan
history repeats itself..

bhutto zardari go to hell
 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/national-political-issues/108657-republic-konfuzistan.html



Don't worry about zeros, if all they are here for is too engage in bigotry, they are zeros and I am surprised you would give them time of day - plus they just such kids, one feels sorry for them.

Hey, thanks for the link man! That was a an interesting article to read. With connection to PDF lost for hours, I just got to check it out and read it.

Although I do not agree much with Christina Lamb's conception of situation in Pakistan, I agree with Razi Azmi to a great extent. At least to the extent where the results show how the policies have been played with.
 
No one will lose Pakistan. It's a country made up of strong, resilient people.
 

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