Why not the Swedish JAS 39 Gripen?

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

First of all,Grippen is in service full time---so the predictability factor is a known---ie questions about quality, reliability and servicing costs are a available. Looking at the cutting edge technology that sweden has to offer, this plane is second to none in its size and category. One of the most important factor is its turn around time during missions---ability to land and take off from a very short runway under a 1000 meters or as the standard for that plane is---on any road surface.

JF 17 is basically the pakistani version of the grippen----very similiar in shape form and size---My assumption is that pakistanis went in to just learn what this plane was made up of, did the trial runs, checked everything out thoroughly right to the end and then stepped away keeping in mind any possible sanctions on offensive equipment by sweden if the political scenario changed. Basically the grippen was the stepping stone in the development of the thunder, so any bumps and turns that came during the manufacturing of the thunder were sorted out from what was learnt from the grippen.

You have to keep one thing in mind---planes are lot like luxury sedans---their drivers want them to look and operate and perform in a certain manner. For that reason most of the high end luxury sedans look alike.

So, in car language if the grippen being the HONDA ACCORD of the fighter planes, would the JF 17 be the Hyundai Sonata in quality, reliability and the OOMPH FACTOR.

The big difference is in the operating costs and the power plant on these planes. The operating costs will be absorbed by the lower price on the thunder and the more powerful engine is coming forth in due time.

 

[araz]

Mastan Khan.
Thanks for your input. What I wanted was an evaluation of how Sweedish technology would have added to what PAF has now. I dont mind our Hyundai Sonata. I am proud to say I drive a skoda. But if I have understood you correctly, you are saying that the issues are qualitative rather than quantitative. Well that would improve with time I am sure.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Araz,

There are both the qualitaive and quantitavie issues involved over here. You can truly have two JF 17's for the price of one grippen 39 and still spare some change. Two is always better than one in air to air combat. The present jf 17 could be 80 % and the 2nd 50 planes could be 90-95 % of the grippen's capabilites. The difference of the capabilities would be so narrow that ultimately any superiority of one plane over the other would purely be pilot to pilot and awac support. For the cost of 125 grippens, we will have at least 275 of jf 17's. If your aircraft meets the minimal criteria in combat against the enemy aircraft, then the bottomline is the number of aircraft that you can put on the line.

Second thing is that we will have around 100 plus JF 17's on the ground even before we were to see the first of the grippens. Now we will have well trained pilots buzzing around in their brand spanking new thunders and in a five years time, some of them will be seasoned pilots. The awacs and air refuelling are coming pretty soon---so it will become a win win situation for PAF.

The PAF has always had the a different mentality as compared to other branches of millitary when it came to procurement of flying equipment. PAF always went for the best if it could get it---till they discovered one day, that for a reliable delivery of equipment purchased, they will have to find a way to manufacture their own.

 

[blain2]

The advantage of JF-17 is two fold. First it serves the adage "Quantity has a quality all its own" really well. Plus, the quality of the JF-17 is not bad at all given the upgrades/avionics/weapons PAF is looking to integrate into the aircraft.

The other big advantage for Pakistan is that even if the aircraft is not an exact 1:1 match with the Gripen (they do not have to be either as both Sweden and Pakistan have different requirements, threats to cater to), the security of supply afforded by the JF-17 outstrips all the advantages of any 4th gen platform available from the west.

 

[Quwa]

The systems used on the JF-17 are of the same generation used on the EF/Rafale...the only differences being some performance and quality. However it is not like we're using an F-16A as a backbone when the world is using EF, Rafale, MiG-35 & Gripen - as was the case with F-7 in the 1990s. The PAF is using a real contemporary 4th generation fighter that should through natural service process become a 4.5 gen. fighter - or at least 4++...and probably by 2015-2019.

 

[araz]

Mastan, Blain2 and Mark.
Thank you very much for your valuable input.I personally feel we are really fortunate to have a plane like Thunder in our inventory. Things can only look up in future if advances in Chinese aviation industry during the last decade are anything to go by. To top it all off we have a fantastic new plane which we can call our own and tinker with at our own whim and fancy.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Looking at the average life of a fighter aircraft and a possible replacement for the MIG 21 / F 7 / F 16 A B, the JF 17 could go through a minimum of 2 upgrades and many different packages of the aircraft---considering that the the lifespan of the plane is around 30 years plus.

Today's JF 17 is just a baby---in its nascent stage---it maybe exactly like the MIG 21 and the F 16 in numbers in the next 15 years from now. The truth is that once the planes are available to be sold to other countries, till then we will not know the true potential of this aircraft.

The PAF and the chinese should also look into producing these planes for other buyers within the next 3 years.

 

[blain2]

Hi,

Looking at the average life of a fighter aircraft and a possible replacement for the MIG 21 / F 7 / F 16 A B, the JF 17 could go through a minimum of 2 upgrades and many different packages of the aircraft---considering that the the lifespan of the plane is around 30 years plus.

Today's JF 17 is just a baby---in its nascent stage---it maybe exactly like the MIG 21 and the F 16 in numbers in the next 15 years from now. The truth is that once the planes are available to be sold to other countries, till then we will not know the true potential of this aircraft.

The PAF and the chinese should also look into producing these planes for other buyers within the next 3 years.

I agree.

As per the former CPD, JF-17, the JF-17 will go through 3 major upgrades throughout the life of the platform. These would involve propulsion and avionics.

I think on the issue of producing the aircraft for others, like any other aircraft, this platform will have to be inducted and operationalized by the PAF and PLAAF and after seeing it in service and the capabilities afforded, only then foreign buyers would be seriously interested. While countries under foreign embargoes maybe early buyers, the real marketing of the type for most others in the market for a 4/4.5 gen aircraft would be done when the aircraft is operationally deployed by the Air forces of Pakistan and China.

 

[fatman17]

I agree.

As per the former CPD, JF-17, the JF-17 will go through 3 major upgrades throughout the life of the platform. These would involve propulsion and avionics.

I think on the issue of producing the aircraft for others, like any other aircraft, this platform will have to be inducted and operationalized by the PAF and PLAAF and after seeing it in service and the capabilities afforded, only then foreign buyers would be seriously interested. While countries under foreign embargoes maybe early buyers, the real marketing of the type for most others in the market for a 4/4.5 gen aircraft would be done when the aircraft is operationally deployed by the Air forces of Pakistan and China.

don't disagree but i don't see the PLAAF deploying the JF-17 (FC-1) very soon. at best they will offer this platform for the african-asian export market.

 

[Contrarian]

don't disagree but i don't see the PLAAF deploying the JF-17 (FC-1) very soon. at best they will offer this platform for the african-asian export market.

PLAAF is not keen on JF-17. They are much more focussed on J-10 and J-11B's, which they want to become the mainstay of PLAAF. They will however buy 150 JF-17's as per contractual obligations, to gain an ally in Pakistan.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

I think PLAAF will not induct JF-17 since they are now more focused on J-10s and J-11s.

Export will be the case from CAC in China. PAC will make for PAF only.

 

[bravo0744]

Plz let us know further details if you have

 

[khanz]

I think coz U.S could block sweden from selling it couldn't they

 

[blain2]

PLAAF is not keen on JF-17. They are much more focussed on J-10 and J-11B's, which they want to become the mainstay of PLAAF. They will however buy 150 JF-17's as per contractual obligations, to gain an ally in Pakistan.

They may not be keen as per you, but then again there is a difference in JF-17 and FC-1. And even if we consider the FC-1, they get a better MR platform than anything else they have aside from J-10 and J-11.

Let me also repeat this oft-stated point here, the PLAAF are still flying vast numbers of older J-7 variants. The PLAAF like any other air force in the world has a plan around the numbers it needs to maintain its capability. J-10/J-11 replacement cannot be a 1:1 deal in place of the older hardware in use in the PLAAF due to obvious costs. Also you may be aware that PLAAF is no longer increasing the numbers of J-11...so what the PLAAF have is essentially J-10 and then FC-1 to make up for the gap that the de-induction of the J-7 and possibly even J-8s would have on their force. In order to get around this issue, they will have to induct a sizable fleet of FC-1.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Whatever the case maybe, china still has to replace all of its J 7's first and then the older J 8's and this replacement is not taking into account its acquisition of J 10's and J11's alongwith upgrading the SU 27-30's which are an addition.

That replacement is upwards of 500 to a 1000 aircraft. Even though china may have 50 plus J 10 in active service, till now there is no confirmation but they will get the FC 1, they will get some and the news will trickle down. Now for an intelligence agency, that time will be too late to find out.

When a new aircraft comes out, air forces who are interested in that type of platform and are ready to buy them, donot wait for it to be made into a proven platform---once it is flying, there is nothing much to prove beyond the minimal performance criteria---anything beyond that is gravy. After that it is all about availability, cost of operations and after sales service.

FC 1 is going to be the MIG 21 of the 21st century in numbers unless pakistan wants to keep it exclusive. There is nothing else close to its price range in the market.