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Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: HAL getting ready to manufacture Rafale
India’s M-MRCA Fighter Competition: Order Cut Coming?

As far as I can tell, the transfer of technology includes even the Snecma engines. It seems worth it for the ToT alone, which will be a massive boost to Indian self-reliance and future versions of the Tejas, AMCA, and Kaveri. The Rafale might be a fourth-generation fighter in terms of shape and purpose, but its avionics, including the radars, is brand new, having just been developed. To be honest, I'm as excited as ever.

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India Considers New Partnership Options For Kaveri Engine | Aviation International News
This article, on the other hand, says,
However, some analysts have described the decision as a wise one given that GTRE will already get some access to technology for Snecma’s M88 engine that powers Dassault Aviation’s Rafale multirole fighter that India has selected. From an Indian perspective, this lessened the case for cooperating with Snecma on the Kaveri engine. However, according to a government defense official speaking on condition of anonymity, India will have to wait much longer for crystal blade technology, metallurgy and a full understanding of the hot section under the terms of its existing transfer of technology agreement.
 
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Please do not consider this deal as a buying selling deal of some aircraft..... Here what India will get with deal is high technical advancement ...This deal is having capability to change the face of Indian Aviation Industry.
I hope that India buys Rfael , and by doing so it will be in a distinguished club of."Dohbi kakutta na ghar ka na ghat ka." Maintenance and logistic nightmare. Even putting this fighter on radar of accusation speaks volume about professionalism of IAF. :D Seriously cant wait to see Rafael in IAF history show rooms soon :D
 
Excellent. However the question here is whether it makes economic sense to buy it & in the numbers mentioned or whether it makes sense to look at other less expensive options or mix & match. IAF with primarily the MKI's & Rafales should either change their idea of required squadron strength or be prepared for bankrupting their finances.
IMO, if you guys get certain ToT's with it, then its surely worth it, as it will have the added benefits of requirements of the Air-force plus &
more importantly with regards to R&D's (from a long term prospective)
 
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IMO, if you guys get certain ToT's with it, then its surely worth it, as it will have the added benefits of requirements of the Air-force plus with regards to R&D's

Everything, including ToT must be subject to a cost-benefit analysis. Even now, nobody is sure of the exact level of ToT that will be made available & the possible befits that will accrue. I, for one, want to see value for money. My country is not a rich one & I am aware that we need to be able to do our best to make every bit count. Some of my countrymen are more okay with spending money far more freely, I happen to think differently, especially in a case like this where the costs seem extreme.
 
Everything, including ToT must be subject to a cost-benefit analysis. Even now, nobody is sure of the exact level of ToT that will be made available & the possible befits that will accrue. I, for one, want to see value for money. My country is not a rich one & I am aware that we need to be able to do our best to make every bit count. Some of my countrymen are more okay with spending money far more freely, I happen to think differently, especially in a case like this where the costs seem extreme.
then you have to see this deal from the perspective of geo-politics, for example think if this deal for offered to Russia or China, then of what's being offered to you @ $20 billion would have been @ least $40 billion for them , provided it came with those ToT's being offered to you guys, then trust me, they would have taken it with out a bargain !
 
then you have to see this deal from the perspective of geo-politics, for example think if this deal for offered to Russia or China, then of what's being offered to you @ $20 billion would have been @ least $40 billion for them , provided it came with those ToT's being offered to you guys, then trust me, they would have taken it with out a bargain !

All I will say is...I wish I shared yoiur confidence......
 
The experts say the prcie will be 16 billion doalrs spread over 10 years.
and of course a major chunk of that money will come to India as per clause in the deal
 
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Because the only 5th generation fighter in service yet is, as of today, the F-22 Raptor – the Russian PAKFA and the Chinese J-20 and J-31 haven’t entered service yet – the era of Generation #4+ fighters hasn’t ended yet, and these fighters will still be quite useful until then. Indeed, these fighters will retain military utility (absent double-digit SAMs) for some time even after the eventual introduction of the PAKFA, J-20, and J-31.

And among these aircraft, the French Dassault Rafale is, without doubt, the most capable and most lethal one. This post will look at this interesting airplane briefly and then compare it to its foreign competitors.

Introduction

The Rafale (French: squall) program was initiated in the late 1970s by the Giscard d’Estaing administration as a replacement for the Super Etendard, Mirage F1, Mirage III, and Mirage V aircraft already in service and the Mirage 2000 multirole fighters which were in the advanced design and production phase (they entered service in 1984). The Rafale first flew in 1986 and entered service in 2001.

The Rafale is designed to meet the needs of two services. The French Air Force, the world’s oldest (established in 1909), needs an affordable multirole fighter to protect national airspace and conduct strikes against a variety of ground targets: fixed structures as well as moving targets – ranging from enemy tanks and APCs to air defense system batteries and ballistic missile launchers to insurgents.

The French Navy wants an aircraft capable of the same range of ground strikes, but also one capable of defending the fleet from air attack and winning air superiority in environments where the French Air Force does not have access to any airfields.

Additionally, both services want an aircraft capable of carrying the ASMP and ASMP-A stealthy cruise missile with a nuclear warhead – currently the TN-88, and later the TNA (Tete Nucleaire Aerienne, i.e. Aerial Nuclear Warhead), as a part of France’s nuclear deterrent – France’s only defense against the most catastrophic threats.

Barack Obama’s drive to unilaterally disarm the United States, confirmed last week in Berlin at the Brandenburg Gate, shows that America’s nuclear umbrella can no longer be counted upon by anyone, because Obama and his extremely leftist party base are determined to scrap it unilaterally. Yet, there is zero chance of there ever being a world without nuclear weapons. In fact, Obama’s legacy will be a world with more nuclear weapons (but not American ones) and more nuclear-armed states in it.

This means that France cannot, under any circumstances, afford to scrap its nuclear arsenal or to cut any further. If anything, France will need to increase it. Hence, the need for a French national nuclear deterrent.

France is very, very fortunate that it has an independent nuclear deterrent, produced entirely in France of French components by French hands. France would’ve been in a terrible situation if she were dependent on the United States for any of these components like the UK is. Obama’s America could’ve simply denied France such components, just like the Kennedy Administration initially did to the UK by cancelling the Skybolt missile. But even the pro-British Reagan Administration was initially reluctant to supply Trident-II SLBMs to Britain in the 1980s.

France, on the other hand, produces all of the components for its nuclear deterrent – the warheads, the missiles, the planes, and the submarines – itself. And the Rafale is one of those components.

Combat performance

The Rafale has already proven itself in three different wars. In Afghanistan, it performed numerous ground strikes against the Taleban, sometimes with GBU-12 Paveway II bombs used against Taleban caves. In Libya, it successfully evaded Qaddafi’s woefully obsolete 1960s-vintage Soviet air defense systems and led the fight against his regime. Most recently, in Mali, the Rafale flew long distances to perform strikes against Islamic insurgents.

Thus, the Rafale is a veteran of three wars despite entering service only a little more than a decade ago, a stark distinction to all of its competitors except the Super Hornet, none of which have seen any combat whatsoever, even against obsolete Soviet air defense systems or insurgents unable to contest control of the air.

Armament, sensors, powerplant, aerodynamic and kinematic performance

The Rafale can carry more ordnance than any of its competitors, hands down. The Air Force variants (B and C) have 14, and the Navy (M) variant, 13 hardpoints. By contrast, the F-35 can carry only 4 munitions (e.g. missiles) while in its stealthy mode; the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the F-16 can carry only 11, and the Su-35 twelve.

For air-to-air combat, the Rafale’s two principal missiles are the MBDA’s MICA (Missile d’Interception, de Combat et d’Autodefense) and Meteor. The MICA is intended for short and medium range combat, with a nominal range of 80 kms, and has both electromagnetic and infrared seekers. The Meteor, with a 160 km range, is a radar-guided long-range (Beyond Visual Range) ramjet-powered missile similar to the American AIM-120D AMRAAM. The principal difference, of course, is the Meteor’s ramjet engine. The French MOD has already ordered 200 such missiles.

This diversity of missiles and seekers will allow a Rafale pilot to saturate his opponent in combat with a salvo of 3 different missiles at once (and remember, the Rafale can carry 13-14 missiles in total). This means his opponent, forced to duck one of the missiles, would be detected by another missile’s seeker, and thus be shot down.

Furthermore, the Rafale has the biggest gun on the market (ex aequo with Sukhoi aircraft): a hefty 30mm GIAT gun firing incendiary rounds. This makes the Rafale an excellent choice for both air to air and air to ground combat, as its 30mm rounds would provide excellent support for troops on the ground. 30mm is the caliber of the guns of most APCs and IFVs.

For air to ground combat, the Rafale can carry the GBU-12 and GBU-49 Paveway II, the GBU-24 Paveway III, the Sagem AASM bomb (with a range of 55 meters and a CEP of less than 1 meter, designed to attack both static and mobile targets), the MBDA Apache and Scalp-EG cruise missiles (designed for attacking targets such as the runways of heavily defended airfields from a distance outside the range of their air defense systems), the Exocet AM39 anti-ship transonic cruise missile, and the forementioned ASMP and ASMP-A stealthy nuclear-armed cruise missiles.

In short, the Rafale can carry a wide range of weapons, and perform air to air, air to ground, and air to sea combat well.

In particular, its Exocet missiles would, in any anti-ship battle, prove very deadly, as they did when launched by Argentine A-4 Skyhawks against British warships during the 1982 Falklands War. The warships of virtually all navies of the world are currently poorly prepared for the ASCM threat.

The Rafale’s two principal sensors are the Thales RBE2 ESA radar and the Thales/SAGEM OSF (Optronique Spherique Frontal) infrared search and tracking system (IRST system).

The Dassault Rafale is a relatively small, light airplane. Therefore, it isn’t surprising that its wing loading ratio (the ratio of its weight compared to its wingspace) is just 306 kg/sq m, the second lowest ratio on the market after the JAS-39 Gripen. Its combat radius is also impressive – 1,852 kilometers, again, the second-best in the market trailing only the F-15C/D. The Rafale also has an excellent rate of climb – 304 m/s, i.e. 60,000 ft/min. This means the plane can climb to its service ceiling (55,000 ft) in a minute.

The plane’s two SNECMA MM-2 turbofan engines provide a dry thrust of 50.4 kN each, or 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each on afterburner. This gives the plane a very good thrust/weight ratio of 0.988:1 in full combat load – unheard of for a modern fighter, and fully competitive even with 5th generation American, Russian, and Chinese fighters.

The one thing that somewhat lets the Rafale down – other than its 55,000 ft ceiling – is its speed of Mach 1.8, compared to Mach 2 or more for most other fighters. However, its principal competitor, the F-35, is worse at just Mach 1.61 and 43,000 ft. Moreover, it is not a mechanical flaw, but rather the product of a deliberate design aimed to optimise the Rafale for the by far predominant type of aerial combat – namely, close, within visual range combat. In that regime of A2A warfare, neither speed nor ceiling would be a significant issue; the predominant factors are agility, pilot visibility, sensors, gun caliber, and the quality and quantity of WVR, infrared-guided missiles.

And by these factors, the Rafale is the best, with a superlative wingloading ratio, excellent pilot visibility in all direction, superlative radar and IR sensors, a 30 mm gun (the biggest fighter gun caliber in the market), and a load of up to 14 (but usually 10-12) MICA infrared- and electromagnetically-guided missiles with a range of up to 80 kms.

IR-guided WVR missiles typically have a Probability of Kill of 74%, according to research by Air Power Australia. Therefore, if a Rafale fighter begins a mission armed with 2 Meteor and 12 MICA missiles, then, even if its 2 Meteors hit nothing, its 12 MICA missiles will kill 8 enemy aircraft.

Comparison with the competitors

In comparison with the Dassault Rafale, all of its Generation 4+ competitors, with the limited exception of the Typhoon, look miserably.

The F-35 Lightning II – marketed by Lockheed Martin as a stealthy multirole fighter that can do everything and meet the needs of three US Services and many allied countries – fails the test miserably. Its wing loading ratio is 481 kg/sq m even at a 50% combat load, and 529 kg/sq m in full combat load, making it way too heavy for close combat. Its speed of Mach 1.61 and ceiling of 43,000 ft are decisively inferior to that of the Rafale (and all other Generation 4+ and 5th generation fighters in the world), as is its maximum combat load (in stealthy mode) of 4 missiles. Even in nonstealthy mode, it can carry only 8 missiles.

Moreover, the F-35 is “stealthy” only in the X-band, and only from the front and the up. From the belly and the rear, it isn’t stealthy at all, due to its deeply sculpted belly and its round, nonstealthy, muffin-shaped engine (which could be destroyed with a single round from the Rafale’s 30mm gun, thus bringing the F-35 down).

The F-35 program, in short, is nothing but a Ponzi scheme designed to earn Lockheed Martin money at the expense of US and overseas taxpayers.

The F/A-18E/F Super Bug, sometimes touted in the US and Canada as an alternative to the F-35, also fails the comparison miserably, with its aerodynamic and kinematic performance also decisively inferior to the Rafale’s. It has a wing loading ratio of 459 kg/sq m even with a mere 50% combat load; a T/W ratio (at full load) of just 0.93:1, well below the 0.99:1 of the Rafale. Its service ceiling is only 50,000 ft – 5,000 less than for the Rafale. Its rate of climb is a pathetic 228 m/s, and its combat radius a paltry 722 kms. And it can withstand only 7.6 Gs, while the Rafale can withstand a full 9Gs, the most a human pilot can withstand.

In short, both the F-35 and the F/A-18E/F Super Bug are decisively inferior to the Dassault Rafale. Buying either of these aircraft is a recipe for military inferiority and for losing control of the air. Both of them also have a tinier gun – only 20mm caliber.

The JAS-39 Gripen can compete with the Rafale only in the close combat regime, with a wingloading ratio of 283 kg/sq m (the lowest on the market) and a T/W ratio of 0.97:1 at full load (still inferior to the Rafale). It also has a decent max speed of Mach 2. However, its combat radius is very small, at just 800 kms, and it can carry only 8 missiles – as opposed to the Rafale’s 13-14. This means that, in combat against the Gripen, a Rafale pilot would get as many as 5-6 freebie shots at the Gripen.

Most troublingly of all, the Gripen, like the Super Bug, has a ceiling of only 50,000 ft – it can fly no higher than that. This makes it a non-player in the BVR regime, like the previous two competitors. Their missiles, to hit a Rafale, would have to climb steeply uphill, while the Rafale’s superior max ceiling would add to the nominal range of its missiles.

The next competitor is the F-15SE Silent Eagle. This aircraft, however, is not a development from the F-15C/D air superiority Eagle, but rather, the F-15E Strike Eagle, and has mostly the same performance parameters. It has decisively inferior thrust/weight (0.93:1) and rate of climb (254 m/s, 50,000 ft/min) ratios. Its gun’s caliber is only 20mm. Its service ceiling, at 60,000 feet, is not much better than the Rafale’s, and its combat radius, 1,840 kms, is essentially the same as the Rafale’s.

The only significant advantage it has over the French fighter is speed: over Mach 2.5+. This, by itself, however, is not enough to make it a better fighter, nor to make it a good air superiority fighter. This is no surprise, because, as its name says, the Strike Eagle is intended to be a strike jet, not an air superiority fighter.

The next rival is the Sukhoi Flanker family, the most capable member of which is the newest one – the Su-35. Like the F-15E/SE, its only significant advantage over the Rafale is speed – and at only Mach 2.25, it’s even less pronounced than with the F-15E/SE. Its service ceiling (59,100 ft) is not much better than the Rafale’s (55,000 ft).

Meanwhile, its wingloading ratio, at 408 kg/sq m, is disastrously inferior to the French fighter’s 304 kg/sq m, making the Su-35 a non-player in within visual range combat where any Rafale is present, and an inferior rate of climb at 280 m/s. Its stated thrust/weight ratio of 1.13:1 refers to a 50% combat load only, not to a full combat load, the data for which is unavailable but may very well be inferior to the Rafale’s. The only criteria in which the Su-35 has parity with the Rafale are those of armament – 14 hardpoints and a 30mm gun, exactly as with the Rafale.

And so we come to the Rafale’s last rival, the Eurofighter Typhoon. This aircraft has a good thrust ratio (1.07:1) at a full fuel and armament load, but it’s not much more than the Rafale’s 0.99:1. Its rate of climb (315 m/s, i.e. 62,000 ft/min) and top speed (Mach 2) are also only slightly better than the Rafale’s and do not justify the Typhoon’s much higher cost (£125 mn per copy). The Typhoon’s service ceiling, 55,000 ft, is the same as the Rafale’s, the wing loading ratio (312 kg/sq m) is slightly inferior, and its combat radius is decisively inferior: just 601 km for a lo-lo-lo mission, and 1,389 km for a hi-lo-hi mission – better than the former, but still much less than the Rafale’s 1,800+ kms.

The Typhoon’s 27mm gun caliber is slightly smaller than the Rafale’s, and it can carry 13 missiles – the same as a Rafale M, one missile less than the Rafale B/C variants.

So the Typhoon is slightly better than the Rafale on 3 parameters, slightly inferior two, equivalent on two others, and decisively inferior on one. In other words, by most criteria, the Typhoon is either inferior or barely keeps parity with the Rafale – hardly a justification for the Eurofighter’s much higher cost.

Another advantage the Rafale has over the Typhoon, the Gripen, the F-15E/SE, and so far also over the unproven F-35C (which has suffered notorious tailhook problems and has never taken off from a carrier) is the fact that the Rafale can operate from aircraft carriers and has done so since 2001. The Typhoon, the F-15, and the Gripen don’t have a naval variant and the first two never will, as they are too heavy to operate from carriers.

So why has the UK never purchased the Rafale for its two new aircraft carriers undergoing construction?

Because of purely political issues: pressure by the Lockheed Martin Corporation and the British aerospace lobby. The former has successfully lobbied the UK government to stay in the F-35 program at a high cost to the British taxpayer, even though not a single F-35 will enter Royal Navy (or RAF) service for many years, if ever. The latter, for its part, was lobbying the British government to develop a navalized Typhoon variant, even though such an aircraft is not feasible without substantial changes to the Typhoon’s design, as the aircraft is simply too heavy for carriers.

This is why repeated French proposals to sell the Rafale to the UK have been rejected despite the significant warming of British relations since 2006 and especially since 2007 under President Sarkozy. Had the UK accepted the French offer in 2006 – at the same time when British ministers were begging the US to make the F-35′s development codes available to London – the Rafale would’ve been available for RN (and RAF) service by now. (And had the UK not delayed the construction of its two new carriers, the Rafale would’ve been flying off their decks by now.)

The Rafale was rejected for purely political, not military, reasons.

The reality confronting all nations that don’t have cozy relations with Russia or China is simple. They will either procure the Rafale – the best Generation #4+ fighter in the world – or they will see their air forces emasculated and rendered impotent, irrelevant, and useless. This applies, inter alia, to Canada, Australia, the UK, the UAE, South Korea, Poland, Spain, and others. For the time being, it also applies to nations that have friendly relations with Moscow and Beijing, such as Malaysia, Brazil, and Italy, because their PAKFA, J-20, and J-31 fighters won’t be available until later in this decade. While the Dassault Rafale is available right now.

This diversity of missiles and seekers will allow a Rafale pilot to saturate his opponent in combat with a salvo of 3 different missiles at once

However the same advantage is enjoyed by SU-30 series.

The Russian flankers are equipped with BVRs with diffrent seekers i.e if 2 BVRs use X seeker other 4 will use Y.

I beleve India uses the same doctrine and if not, when ASTRA 2 will be introducxed, it will be the case.

I believe then Su 30 MKI will carry 4 R 77s and 2 ASTRAs, which will have differnt seekers.

The range of Rafale is 3700 KM plus but with three drop tanks.
 
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I hope that India buys Rfael , and by doing so it will be in a distinguished club of."Dohbi kakutta na ghar ka na ghat ka." Maintenance and logistic nightmare. Even putting this fighter on radar of accusation speaks volume about professionalism of IAF. :D Seriously cant wait to see Rafael in IAF history show rooms soon :D
Grapes are sour. keep whining.
 
Makaramarma said:
You mean the 480 Billion $ they get is not going to fund the PAK FA ? :cheesy:

What about their 480 billion $ worth of additional foreign reserve ? you think that can fund their PAK FA ?

Real life is not wishful thinking.
The 400 billion$ deal is for 30 years dude.
Plus we are paying 50% money in pakfa

Thats 13.33 billion dollars per year.
 
That is an odd position to take. Do you seriously expect either the IAF or the MoD to voice such doubts in the public realm?

No it isn't, Finance ministry for example is bound to criticize misplanning MoD or the forces, the CAG has to point out such things too, the Defence Minister is accountable for the plannings in front of the parliament and so on, so there are numerous public places, where a future budget problem of the operational fleet would be pointed out or discussed, but it isn't. So we are talking about a hypothetical (I even say a purposly created) problem, that doesn't exist in the plannings of the officials.

That would be a common sense point, wouldn't it?

Of course not, if so the F16 would win every competition, but that is not the case, because every country has it's own priorities, be it technical, political, or industrial. Cost-effectiveness comes only into the game, when there is a lack of budget, as we have seen in Switzerland or Brazil. When you have the money, you take the best that you can get, no matter what the operational costs might be and as I said, the fact that all "cost-effective" fighters were rejected in our competition clearly shows that this was never a factor!

By that logic maybe we should soon replace the Rafale with something that can take over from its workload. This is an extraordinary position to take. The Su30MKI is already part of the fleet. One doesn't spend $20+ billion so that something else can do part of their job.

First of all, there is no other option that would be capable to take over MKI or Rafales jobs, that's why Rafale is the only real choice for us now. Secondly, who said it should replace MKI totaly? Today IAF is highly dependen on MKI and high flying hours, because of the lack of capable alternatives in the fleet. That naturally will go down with more and more upgraded Mig 29 or Mirage 2000s available, just as with MMRCAs. So it's diverting parts of the jobs and the only alternative to do it in the next 30 years is MMRCA.


This is about procurement and these questions on the exorbitant costs of that are very valid.

No it's not, that's the point! They claim the procurement costs are high, but point at the high operational costs of IAF in total with medium and heavy twin engines, to create a need of lighter and more cost-effective fighters, but as I said, the one has nothing to do with the other.
If we look at the MMRCA requirements however, the fact is, that only Rafale and the EF turned out to be suitable fighters and from those 2, Rafale is also the cost-effective option.
If we compare LCA as an alternative, you have to factor the lack of operational capability, which means around 3 times the LCAs to do what a single Rafale can do. Therefor $85 millions fly away for Rafale vs 3 x LCA MK2 at at least $30 millions flyaway, or $10 to 13.000 operational costs per hour vs 3 x $3 to 5.000 for LCA.
If we compare a possible AMCA to it, we have to factor more capability thanks to stealth, but also far higher operational costs. 1 x single engine F35C is around 1.5 times more expensive to operate than a twin engined F18 Hornet! So even if AMCA is capabilitywise able to take over the same jobs as Rafale, it would do it only at far higher costs, which automatically would be counterproductive to the claim that we need more cost-effective alternatives in future.

So, if you want a medium class fighter, with the capability to be the back bone of IAFs operations in the next 30 years, alongside the MKI, the Rafale is more than worth it. If you than add the industrial offer which comes along the fighter, the costs surely are more than worth it, especially with 50% of it remaining in India anyway.
There is no alternative that is as capable or better and offer the same industrial benefits, at lower costs!

The operational costs of the MKI's already exists

Of course, but as shown above, they are now a necessity because there is no alternative in the fleet to do the same at lower costs. Medium class fighters can offer an alternative, therefore the operational cost of the MKI fleet can be reduced, by the more medium class alternatives IAF has. Simple examples, lets say IAF has to do a strike with KAB 500 bombs, so far they were limited to MKI mainly, but with the upgrade the Mig 29s can do it too, but at operationally lower costs. In future we will have not only MKIs for 8h air superiority roles, but also MMRCAs, at lower costs. Even if you take a simple role as buddy refuelling, it logically is better to use a cost-effective fighter, if it can carry enough fuel, which also makes medium class Migs or MMRCA the first choices to replace MKIs in these roles.
So again, it's not about replacing MKI as a fighter, but to reduce the dependance on it and therefore the operational costs, thanks to alternatives that can do the same roles as effective, at lower costs.

we would have been better off bulking up our forces with a lighter fighter and use the heavier fighters to reinforce them.

Wrong, we would have been better if we A) planned with an indigenous single engine medium class fighter (Mirage 2000, F16, J10), that is capable enough to do more than basic roles and B) to get it done in an more simple way, which than has rejected the need of a foreign fighter in the first place!
And single engine fighters are of no use to reduce costs, if they can't take over similar jobs. Even with LCA available today, the MKI would be the prime fighter with high flying hours, simply by the fact that it is the only one to do certain jobs. So it's not about the numbers of engines, but about operational alternatives, that are more cost effective and that's what the Rafale is, even with 2 engines, or what the F16IN could had been with a single engine.

The case still needs to be made as to why this is the preferred choice.

Because it fitted the requirements of the RFP and was the most cost-effective suitable offer, as simple as that.
 
No it isn't, Finance ministry for example is bound to criticize misplanning MoD or the forces, the CAG has to point out such things too, the Defence Minister is accountable for the plannings in front of the parliament and so on, so there are numerous public places, where a future budget problem of the operational fleet would be pointed out or discussed, but it isn't. So we are talking about a hypothetical (I even say a purposly created) problem, that doesn't exist in the plannings of the officials.

Not really. Does not work that way. The Finance Ministry, in this case was part of the planning. No about to criticise it. The CAG is yet to deal with the matter. You are entitled to your opinion that it is a "created" problem, others can & will disagree. Attributing motives is both pointless & also is the oldest trick in the book.



Of course not, if so the F16 would win every competition, but that is not the case, because every country has it's own priorities, be it technical, political, or industrial. Cost-effectiveness comes only into the game, when there is a lack of budget, as we have seen in Switzerland or Brazil. When you have the money, you take the best that you can get, no matter what the operational costs might be and as I said, the fact that all "cost-effective" fighters were rejected in our competition clearly shows that this was never a factor!

You said cost effectiveness was not a factor & I said it always will be a factor. Not the only factor but a very important factor. Cannot live on cloud cuckoo land, the bills have to be paid right here.



First of all, there is no other option that would be capable to take over MKI or Rafales jobs, that's why Rafale is the only real choice for us now. Secondly, who said it should replace MKI totaly? Today IAF is highly dependen on MKI and high flying hours, because of the lack of capable alternatives in the fleet. That naturally will go down with more and more upgraded Mig 29 or Mirage 2000s available, just as with MMRCAs. So it's diverting parts of the jobs and the only alternative to do it in the next 30 years is MMRCA.

The logic is questionable, the original intent was to replace the Mig 21's. if Mirage 2000's & Mig 29's could reduce some of the workload, the single engined fighters in this competition too should have been able to. My point is directly about the cost.



No it's not, that's the point! They claim the procurement costs are high, but point at the high operational costs of IAF in total with medium and heavy twin engines, to create a need of lighter and more cost-effective fighters, but as I said, the one has nothing to do with the other.
If we look at the MMRCA requirements however, the fact is, that only Rafale and the EF turned out to be suitable fighters and from those 2, Rafale is also the cost-effective option.
If we compare LCA as an alternative, you have to factor the lack of operational capability, which means around 3 times the LCAs to do what a single Rafale can do. Therefor $85 millions fly away for Rafale vs 3 x LCA MK2 at at least $30 millions flyaway, or $10 to 13.000 operational costs per hour vs 3 x $3 to 5.000 for LCA.
If we compare a possible AMCA to it, we have to factor more capability thanks to stealth, but also far higher operational costs. 1 x single engine F35C is around 1.5 times more expensive to operate than a twin engined F18 Hornet! So even if AMCA is capabilitywise able to take over the same jobs as Rafale, it would do it only at far higher costs, which automatically would be counterproductive to the claim that we need more cost-effective alternatives in future.

So, if you want a medium class fighter, with the capability to be the back bone of IAFs operations in the next 30 years, alongside the MKI, the Rafale is more than worth it. If you than add the industrial offer which comes along the fighter, the costs surely are more than worth it, especially with 50% of it remaining in India anyway.
There is no alternative that is as capable or better and offer the same industrial benefits, at lower costs!

It's all about the cost & whether we can afford it at this juncture. No one is suggesting the Rafale is not a competent platform, only that the present valuations simply make it too expensive for us, at this time. We could achieve an workable mix with other less expensive options.



Of course, but as shown above, they are now a necessity because there is no alternative in the fleet to do the same at lower costs. Medium class fighters can offer an alternative, therefore the operational cost of the MKI fleet can be reduced, by the more medium class alternatives IAF has. Simple examples, lets say IAF has to do a strike with KAB 500 bombs, so far they were limited to MKI mainly, but with the upgrade the Mig 29s can do it too, but at operationally lower costs. In future we will have not only MKIs for 8h air superiority roles, but also MMRCAs, at lower costs. Even if you take a simple role as buddy refuelling, it logically is better to use a cost-effective fighter, if it can carry enough fuel, which also makes medium class Migs or MMRCA the first choices to replace MKIs in these roles.
So again, it's not about replacing MKI as a fighter, but to reduce the dependance on it and therefore the operational costs, thanks to alternatives that can do the same roles as effective, at lower costs.

That is still fuzzy logic. We could increase the MKI's for now & use lighter fighters to fill in the blanks. That certainly would be cheaper. as I said the MKI is already there, the costs will continue. Nobody buys a fleet of BMW to reduce operational costs of already running Audis. The BMW's will still carry an huge initial cost. Same with the operational costs of the MKI versus the initial costs of the Rafale.


Wrong, we would have been better if we A) planned with an indigenous single engine medium class fighter (Mirage 2000, F16, J10), that is capable enough to do more than basic roles and B) to get it done in an more simple way, which than has rejected the need of a foreign fighter in the first place!
And single engine fighters are of no use to reduce costs, if they can't take over similar jobs. Even with LCA available today, the MKI would be the prime fighter with high flying hours, simply by the fact that it is the only one to do certain jobs. So it's not about the numbers of engines, but about operational alternatives, that are more cost effective and that's what the Rafale is, even with 2 engines, or what the F16IN could had been with a single engine.

Then according to you, single engined fighters should have no place since they will never be able to do all the things that twin engined fighters do. We need to replace the Mig 21's & fast. Single engined fighters were necessary & should have been part of the mix. Certainly on economic grounds.

Because it fitted the requirements of the RFP and was the most cost-effective suitable offer, as simple as that.

Not simple. What is being questioned here is the whole deal and the way it has been structured.

You are entitled to your opinion & most of us here are reasonably familiar with what that is. does not mean that other opinions have no relevance or come only because they are motivated. Sure, that could be the reason for some but doesn't take away from the legitimate questions that are raised.
 
Rafale is an excellent MMRCA: very agile, low RCS, good range (better than EF2000), supercruise (excellent for interception), advanced avionics, two engines (esp important over sea and mountains).

The only serious downside of the Rafale is small radar dome. I think that the range advantage of Rafale over the EF played the crucial role in selection. Since India is a huge country with huge ocean spaces around which need to be controlled. And when it comes to patrolling the oceans, even the small radar of the Rafale is enough to detect ships up to horizon. Rafale has also better downside visibility than EF.

Tejas Mk2 with all due respect can hardly be used as MMRCA: it has small range, no supercruise, low T/W ratio, one engine. Its a nice light fighter, but cant replace the Rafale.
 
The Finance Ministry, in this case was part of the planning. No about to criticise it.

Exactly because they know about the costs, they could have complained about it, as they did in the tanker deal, which than needed to be re-issued including lifecycle cost calculations! So FM is aware of the costs, the future plans and seems to have no issue, so where does the problem of future operational costs come from? That's a lot of hot air, unless the officials that actually knows about the real budget figures and plans comes out and state that there is an issue.

You are entitled to your opinion that it is a "created" problem, others can & will disagree

When we stick to the opening article and the author of it, that is known to reject MMRCA for years for pretty silly causes, we have to say it's created to suit own purposes.

You said cost effectiveness was not a factor & I said it always will be a factor.

Feel free to prove it. The facts clearly speakes against it doesn't it? IF cost would had played a role, we would never have seen the change from MRCA to MMRCA in the first place, because those were still the most cost-effective and fast to induct choice for IAF. Now in MMRCA, with the shortlisting of only the 2 most expensive fighter to procure and to operate, it gets even more evident that cost had no importance in the selection of the finalists. The only point where it played a role was the selection of L1 and L2!

if Mirage 2000's & Mig 29's could reduce some of the workload, the single engined fighters in this competition too should have been able to

Of course, that's why I said that that an F16IN could had done the operational job too, or that we had planned with a medium class single engine fighter as our indigenous project and not with a light class one, that is only useful for basic roles.
But the fact is, none of the single engined fighters were shortlisted in MMRCA, so even if they might had offered some capability, they did not in other fields and then were rejected. That's why it's pointless to talk about rejected fighters, or fighters that are no real alternative to the MMRCA. We have the Rafale and the EF as suitable options, or to scrap the whole deal at all.

It's all about the cost & whether we can afford it at this juncture

And who says we can't? We are planing to buy amphibious SAR aircrafts for $1.6 billion dollar and people claim we don't have $1.5 to $1.8 billions to make the first paymeant for MMRCA? We want to pay more than a billion for combat helicopters, when we already induct and develop our own once, at lower costs.
At least DRDO and probably MoD considers a $2 billion AMCA program, that IAF as the prime planned customer doesn't need or want...
We have money and we will see more money coming in with the economy coming back and hopefully the inflation going down. What we don't have, is more time to waste since IAF needs more and more capable fighters, so we need a decision on 1 of the 2 MMRCAs soon.

We could increase the MKI's for now & use lighter fighters to fill in the blanks

Which blanks should be filled with light class fighters? Take the examples that I gave, none of them could be done with LCAs in an effective manner for IAF, let alone to oppose our threats. So either you keep a hi lo mix with both classes for dedicated roles, or you put a medium class in between, than can be used in all roles.
If in a hi lo mix LCA does 100h and MKI 100h in their own roles, these numbers could be reduced by adding a medium class option in between. LCA 85h, MMRCA 65h, MKI 50h. You have the same total hours, but at ruduced costs over operating heavy class fighters in the same roles, or doing lighter missions in a more effective way.

Then according to you, single engined fighters should have no place since they will never be able to do all the things that twin engined fighters do.

Wrong, as I said, if they can't do the same jobs! Single engine light class fighters can't do the same, while single engine medium class fighters can (some more some less).


You are entitled to your opinion & most of us here are reasonably familiar with what that is. does not mean that other opinions have no relevance or come only because they are motivated. Sure, that could be the reason for some but doesn't take away from the legitimate questions that are raised.

But as you said, the questions needs to be legitimate! That's exactly why I am asking from the start, where the base if these operational cost problem is, since neither are any of the officials pointing at that, nor was is shown as a requirement withing the competition. So claiming things, without exactly this legitimate base, beause it suits the opinion is the creating of points that I mentioned and as said, the author is known for his anti MMRCA stand for a long time.
That's why it's not about my opionion vs others, but what really is important and what is not! Cost was never an official issue in the base selection of the fighters, capability and industrial benefits were! That's why Gripen, the Mig or the teens were rejected and at the end when cost played a role, the most cost-effective option was chosen. So one can't complain about cost being an issue or was not considered in the right way.
 

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