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Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

hari sud said:
Dream on Pakistan. First, it is unlikely to be highly capable and then if American components are used then Americans will put restrictions. The same is true if European components are used.
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Feeling a little jealous eh! Even nothing happens it will still be a good leverage for negotiations with Chinese for their 5th generation, while India will still be saying “Ager Rafale Hota” and paying billions to France so that Modi can get another invitation to the Bastille Day parade along with kick backs to prop up BJP for the next elections while India burns and its poor are dying of hunger
 
Path-Finder said:
What possible expertise can Pakistan provide?
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More heads are better than few. Pakistan has plenty of talent, and many end up being hired by foreign companies due to better wages.

Also, Pakistan joining the project would bring down costs and increase Turkey's influence. It would also give an air of credibility to TAI that their 5th gen fighter is being bought by a major air force.
 

Why the Turkish Military Industrial Complex Needs Pakistan

According to an interview at the IDEF '23 by the TAI boss Prof Temel Kotil, the Turkish Military Industrial Complex badly needs engineers to immensely expand its production capacity. The fresh grads are most welcome. The Turkish universities aren't producing enough. Hence, Pakistan with 250...
defence.pk
 
Silicon0000 said:
Too many Off-Topics Dicussions ................. :blah:
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xbat said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1686665582937071616
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I think this may be the most overt demonstration that KAAN will eventually be in PAF. 200 engineers participating in the program with parts likely to be manufactured by Pakistani subsidiaries of Turkish companies has all but laid the ground work here. Pakistan needs to not only participate fully, but also create its own electronics house which will allow it to modify KAAN to its needs and integrate weapons of its choosing, be they turkish, chinese, Pakistani or western.

Path-Finder said:
What possible expertise can Pakistan provide?
Click to expand...
I can tell you that in the states, Pakistani origin doctors and engineers are very highly regarded. The issue (vis a vis indians) is there arent enough of them and that Pakistani when they do get established almost exclusively end up in private sector where they dont have any influence in policy, whereas indians end up in every sector (also do very well here). Additionally Pakistani dont get involved in local/state/national politics and dont open their wallets to let the $$$ talk when it comes to politics.
 
hari sud said:
Turkey has advantage to buy hardware as a NATO member.
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Turkish KAAN Fighter Jet use only Engine from the USA ( GE ) and ejection seat from the UK ( Martin Baker ) ... nothing else

Indian AMCA also will use American Engine GE-F414
India gets military technologies and hardware from USA , France , Israel and Russia
 
The Eagle said:
During an interview with Rana Mubashir-Aaj News, Mr. Temel Kotil, President & CEO TAI said that TF-X is now a “Turkish-Pakistani fighter”. Dr. Rizwan Riaz (AVM) Pro Dir RIC & VP NSTP adds that it is a 5th Gen Fighter Aircraft in which Pakistan & Turkiye are now collaborating. The link to TV program is as follows along with a documentary picture being shared on the Forum.


In above TV Program, the concerns have talked about the level of collaboration from the ground level to exchange program. However, details are not being shared in depth but it helps to have a bit of idea about cooperation between both countries.

View attachment 817565


A little background about Pakistan Turkiye possible collaboration in TFX

Back in 2017, ACM Sohail Aman said:

"We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made.
The baseline is that we have to develop high-end technology ourselves. Of course, the American and Western technologies are better, but if it is unavailable, then we have to make the best use of our own capabilities and our friends."
"I consider it a breach of promise on their part because the United States promised to co-fund this operation (as part of its foreign military assistance). They didn’t adhere to this promise, which is very sad. As a responsible nation, you don’t do this. American funding for F-16s would have been a win-win situation for both.
While that happened, we kept looking at other options. I think we have some of the leading options both in China and Russia. We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft."

Two fronts – one mission | Bol Narratives

web.archive.org web.archive.org

Then after in 2019, during an interview with Alan Warnes, PAC Kamra Chairman, AM Ahmer Shahzad says as follows.
View attachment 817575

In view of above statements/interviews, it appears that Pakistan - Turkiye collaboration was discussed before as well and what CEO TAI recently revealed is not totally a new development.

Project AZM
  • The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has formally announced it will commence development of a 5th-generation fighter, medium altitude long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and munitions under the banner of “Project Azm” (i.e. resolve or determination).
  • AvDI’s long-term endeavour is clearly the 5th-generation fighter program (FGF). In the past several years, several factors emerged which analysts thought would shape the PAF’s next-generation fighter pursuits, most notably the rise of the AVIC FC-31 Gyrfalcon. While the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) is clearly progressing in developing the fighter, it is unclear if the PAF will pursue it. If not the FC-31, then realistically only two other alternate courses remain: the TAI TFX and an original design.
  • Pakistan has been billed as a prospective partner in the TFX, Turkey’s next-generation fighter effort. On repeated occasions since 2016, Turkish government and industry and Pakistan MoDP officials confirmed the link. However, the Pakistan MoDP’s statements regarding the matter had only verified Ankara’s invitation, but it was unclear if the approach was commercially oriented (akin to PAC’s work in supplying Anka parts) or in relation to possible PAF procurement.
  • The PAF itself did not comment on TFX, but aviation journalist Alan Warnes (who is directly in touch with the PAF) reported in May that the TFX is “likely to figure in the PAF’s new generation fighter requirement.”

The following details is hereby quoted and copied from Wikipedia as a refresher and for the ease of readers.


From the original source TF - TUSAS


In order to meet Turkish Air Force (TurAF) requirements beyond 2030s, an indigenous design and development program aims to replace the aging F-16 fleet of TurAF.

Within the scope of TF-X Program, Turkey will become one of the few countries to possess the necessary technologies, engineering infrastructure and production capabilities. Once the engineering activities on all the critical technologies are accomplished (e.g. increased situational awareness, sensor fusion, low observability, weapon bay, …etc), which are needed by a 5th generation (or beyond) jet fighter aircraft.

TF-X aircraft is planned to be kept operational in the TurAF inventory until 2070s and will be interoperable with other critical assets of TurAF such as F-35As.

The TF-X indigenous design and development program prime contract between Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) of Ministry of Turkish National Defence and Turkish Aerospace has been signed on 5th of August 2016.

The timing of this signature alone, is a key demonstrator of Turkey’s determination of running mega-projects uninterruptedly, even under extra-ordinary conditions.

Currently, the prime contract covers the initial four (4) years (starting after signature of major subcontracts) which will end up with completion of preliminary design phase. Within this period beyond the design and development of TF-X Aircraft, engineering capabilities, technology development activities (for key sensors like radar, electronic warfare..etc.), test infrastructures establishment and certification processes will be performed and extensive capabilities for a new generation jet fighter design, development and production will be gained by Turkish industry.

TF-X aircraft will be a multi-role aircraft, it will be designed mainly for air-to-air role with a consideration to air-to-surface roles as well. Upon engineering analysis, TF-X aircraft will be a multi-role aircraft, it will be designed mainly for air-to-air role with a consideration to air-to-surface roles as well. Upon engineering analysis, preliminary calculations, based on received information of suppliers of candidate engines, TF-X aircraft is decided to be a twin engine configuration.

Turkish Fighter-TF, the 5+ Generation Multirole Fighter Aircraft, provides significant capabilities in both Air to Surface and Air to Air combat requirements. Turkish Aerospace’s survivable, strong and agile platform Turkish Fighter is a fully aware warrior, with intelligent and strong combat capabilities.

Turkish Fighter provides air dominance through:

- Increased air to air engagement ranges with Novel Weapons
- Precise and accurate weapon firing from internal weapon bays at high/supersonic speed
- Augmented lethality with support of Artificial Intelligence and Neural Networks.

Other information including Features & Technical data can be found on official website by visiting the given link as above.

Article in Combat Aircraft on TF-X from January
View attachment 817583

View attachment 817584

View attachment 817585

View attachment 817586

Turkey's most popular defense industry and military aviation news platform disclses as follows.
The first prototype of National Combat Aircraft (MMU) will reach the assembly phase by the end of this year.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1490416128153296900


Development Schedule Overview (Wikipedia)​

Development Phase-1 was expected to officially commence by the end of 2014,[37] however, initial conditions were met and the project has officially started in late 2018.

On June 30, 2021, Turkish Air Force made an official presentation about the TF-X program to the press. In the presentation, it was stated that Phase-1 Stage-1 had started with preliminary design works, right after T0 stage. As part of preliminary design activities, system requirements review (SRR) is currently being carried out. By the end of 2022, system functionality review (SFR) and system requirements review (SRR) will be completed. Thus, the preliminary design activities will come to an end. The program is expected to go to the next stage by 2023 when the initial roll-out occurs with engines capable of taxiing.[1]

Phase-1 Stage-2 involves detailed design and qualifications carried out in the 2022-2029 period. The aircraft will roll out in 2023, critical design review (CDR) activities will be carried out in 2024, the production of the first aircraft, called Block-0, will be completed in 2025 and the first flight will be accomplished in 2026. Until that date, TAI aims to manufacture 3 prototypes.[1] The Block-1 configuration is planned to be developed until 2029. Manufacture of 10 Block-1 fighter jets are planned within the scope of Phase-2, and aircraft will be delivered to the Turkish Air Force between 2030 and 2033.[1] In Phase-3, between 2034 and 2040, development and mass production activities of other TF-X blocks is planned.[1]

Design​

TF-X is the first 5th-generation aircraft involving digital twin technology for the design and production.[38][39]

Requirements​

In June 2021, Turkish Air Force, in a presentation made to the press, announced its requirements for minimum capabilities of the TF-X.[1]

  • Improved aerodynamics and propulsion
  • Super-cruise
  • Sufficient and optimized combat radius
  • Advanced and internal multi-spectral sensors (EW and RF/IR)
  • Low observability
  • Sensor fusion and autonomy
  • Improved data-link capabilities for network enabled warfare
  • High precision stand-off weapons

Airframe​

Hüseyin Yağcı, TAI's chief engineer on the TF-X program, has stated that all three conceptual designs thus far feature a design optimized for low radar cross-sectional density, internal weapons bays, and the ability to supercruise, features associated with fifth-generation fighter jets.[5]


Mockup, rear view
TAI's Advanced Carbon Composites fuselage facility, which was commissioned to produce fuselages for Lockheed Martin's Joint Strike Fighter (F-35) program,[40][41] has been tasked with developing an Advanced Carbon Composite fuselage for the TF-X. The Turkish Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM) has also issued a tender for the development of a new lighter carbon composite thermoplastic for the TF-X fuselage.[42]

Radar and sensors​

ASELSAN is currently developing an advanced active electronically scanned array radar which will use gallium nitride (GaN) technology for the TF-X program.[43]

Avionics and equipment​

The TF-X will be integrated from the cockpit to accompanying UAVs (most likely the TAI Anka) through encrypted datalink connections.[44] The aircraft will likely use upgraded variants of Aselsan's own radar warning receiver (RWR), missile warning system (MWS), laser warning system (LWS), chaff and flare management, dispensing system and digital radio frequency memory (DRFM)-based jamming system, which already deployed with the other air platforms.[45][46]

Propulsion​

Prototypes will be equipped with General Electric F110 engines until national ones are developed by TRMotor.[47][48] There are ongoing negotiations with Rolls-Royce on development of an engine for the TF-X.[49]

Preliminary specifications​

Data from Turkish Aerospace[50]

General characteristics

  • Crew: One pilot
  • Length: 21 m (68 ft 11 in)
  • Wingspan: 14 m (45 ft 11 in)
  • Height: 6 m (19 ft 8 in)
  • Wing area: 60 m2 (670 sq ft)
  • Max takeoff weight: 27,215 kg (60,000 lb)
  • Powerplant: 2 × General Electric F110 for test flights (national engines to be developed by TRMotor) , 120 kN (27,000 lbf) thrust each
Performance

  • Maximum speed: 2,222 km/h (1,381 mph, 1,200 kn)
  • Maximum speed: Mach 1.8[3]
  • Combat range: 1,100 km (690 mi, 600 nmi)
  • Service ceiling: 17,000 m (55,000[3] ft)
  • g limits: +9.0 g & -3.5 g
Armament

Avionics


It is pertinent to mention here that Project AZM is an umbrella entity by Pakistan to fulfill future defence needs with self reliance & indigenous programs. Without going into details about Project AZM, since the same is already explained and discussed in a dedicated thread, we shall continue here on topic of Pakistan Turkiye JV for NGFA by collaborating in TFX program.

View attachment 817589
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Was saying this for last 4 years that azm is bullshit simply because of incompetence and lack of capital

Better to join TFX soon otherwise you might not have the window just like we don't now in china (as China doesn't need anyone now)
 
20230803_160209.jpg


nt shure wat dis vedik is on bout!
(not sure what this vedick is on about?)
 
_NOBODY_ said:
India will have to completely sacrifice its sovereignty in order to buy the F-35.
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Not likely. The thing people need to remember is US has multiple interests. For weak nations US will us their weapons and financial deals a stick or noose. Give you enough rope to hang yourself and then hold you hostage (Pakistan, latin american countries, turkey (formerly), egypt). But big countries (economically) where is has multifaceted interests, it wants you in its sphere of influence but knows it cant control the ultimately, so uses trade/tech as a carrot (KSA, UAE, France, Germany ect) . India more and more is in the later group. Due to its shear size, it is becoming economically very important in the world, allowing it flexibility to do what it wants. It has extracted many concessions from the US on trade and defense, but has given very little on its independence. It still supports russia in the sectors it wants to and its too important to the US's plans economically and geopolitically/strategically vis a vis china, that it knows the US wont do anything derogatory towards it (buying S400 while not getting sanctions, still being offered F-35 whereas NATO member Turkey buys S400 and was booted from F-35 program). The notion that India will give up sovereignty for weapons deals like Pakistan had to is unfortunately not true universally.

Sad thing is had Pakistan gotten its economic act together, it would be in the later group. With 250-280M population, and even a middle tier economic development, the country would be an economic juggernaut. Fix the economy and there is no country in the world (US Included) which would be able to ignore and piss off Pakistan. They couldn't afford to.
 
syed_yusuf said:
Does kaan has any internal storage space like j35 or j20 or f35 or f22?
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Yes of course. It is a 5th generation radar evading fighter jet, its fully stealth so very difficult to detect.

Bossman said:
Feeling a little jealous eh! Even nothing happens it will still be a good leverage for negotiations with Chinese for their 5th generation, while India will still be saying “Ager Rafale Hota” and paying billions to France so that Modi can get another invitation to the Bastille Day parade along with kick backs to prop up BJP for the next elections while India burns and its poor are dying of hunger
Click to expand...
Pakistan doesn't need leverage, they will buy both. Kaan will replace F16s whilst J35 will replace Jf17s and J10s. Of course I am talking 2035+ time. At the moment Pakistan doesn't need both but lucky for us they will be ready when we need them.
 
Last edited:
Turkey is doing good business, although Pakistan and Azerbaijan may not be able to contribute too much towards Kaan but by collaboration Turkey has guaranteed customers for Kaan, also they can outsource and use cheap labour to bring down the cost. Good chance Qatar will also be a customer. Turkey has invested heavily so needs to bring in investment.

www.flightglobal.com

Turkey’s Kaan fighter targets overseas partners

The Turkish Aerospace (TAI) developmental Kaan fighter appears to be gaining international traction, with Pakistan likely to follow Azerbaijan in exploring participation in the effort.
www.flightglobal.com www.flightglobal.com

Azerbaijan's integral role in Turkish TF-X Kaan fighter programme strengthens defence capabilities and strategic ties | Shephard

'By involving Azerbaijan [in the TF-X Kaan programme], Türkiye can potentially share the financial burden of the project, leading to cost savings and economic advantages for both countries,' team lead for government contracting at Tusas Engine Industries tells Shephard.
www.shephardmedia.com

quwa.org

Türkiye and Pakistan to Start Talks on KAAN Stealth Fighter

On 02 August, the Turkish Deputy Minister of Defence, Celal Sami Tüfekçi, announced that officials from Türkiye and Pakistan will meet by the end of the month to discuss the latter’s potential en...
quwa.org quwa.org
 

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