Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[nomi007]

I wish South Africa factored into the PAF's Sabre II efforts. By combining their experience from the Carver with Klimov's RD-93, the PAF's ops experience, and China's industrial weight, we could have had a grittier and more affordable equivalent to the Gripen (i.e., composites, digital FBW, HMD/S, etc right off the bat).

WHAT IS YOUR OPTION ABOUT A JF-17 WESTERN VERSION WITH SOUTH AFRICAN, BRAZILIAN & ITALIAN EQUIPMENTS

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

In the JF17's case---the chinese wanted to prove themselves and they wanted to learn---so that gave the Paf a lot more leeway than it was possible---. South africans might not have been as flexible to Paf's demands---.

 

[Khanivore]

I wish South Africa factored into the PAF's Sabre II efforts. By combining their experience from the Carver with Klimov's RD-93, the PAF's ops experience, and China's industrial weight, we could have had a grittier and more affordable equivalent to the Gripen (i.e., composites, digital FBW, HMD/S, etc right off the bat).

I would like to see a joint, multinational project for an advanced UCAV (full learning AI flown) by China, Pakistan, Turkey and South Africa. I'm sure they can come together and build something formidable.

 

[Signalian]

BLK-4 maybe can spin into JF18 that is larger than JF 17 with conformal fuel tanks and more powerful engine, something along F16 in size, dimension and capabilities.

Block IV should spin into a stealthy design, nothing else. We have 4 gen already and 4.5 gen through Block III, its the 5th gen which is required.

First Point
Hence the need to get the J-10CE, and help modernize and acquire the JH-7A; at least 68 aircraft each (4 full squadrons each), along with the last 50 JF-17 Block IIIs would allow the PAF to retire most of the Mirages and most of the F-7s. We would need to still field the last remnants of the Mirages and F-7s, if we intent to keep our numbers up, retiring them once we induct Project AZM/5th Gen Fighter. Hence the modest upgrades of the youngest Mirage air-frames would allow the force to have modern capabilities at all levels. Maybe 50 Mirages, and 30 twin seat F-7PGs for Pilot training.

An Order of battle by 2030 would be as follows:
76 F-16s
68 JH-7A (could be build an reach full operational capability by 2027)
68 J-10CE (could be build an reach full operational capability by 2027)
149 JF-17 (Last Three Squadrons of JF-17s could be build and operational by 2024)
and the last 80 Mirages and F-7s to be replaced when we get 5 Squadrons of 5th gen jets
(50 Mirages could be upgraded over the next 3-5 years, and all fully operational by 2024)

Should more F-16s become available, we could scale back Mirage upgrades and speed up retirement of the F-7s, and if even more F-16s come in retire the mirages all together.
We need to get 4 Squadrons of J-10CEs and 4 Squadrons of JH-7As.

PAF is realistically going for more Mirage-5's for strike role or spare parts. This means PAF is not considering J-10 or JH-7. The amount of money to be spent on 68 + 68 = 136 4/4.5 gen aircrafts can be spent on 5th aircraft, half the size or less even, but a technological leap atleast. Its not wise to spend more money on any new platform else than 5th gen. JF-17 Block III will build up the numbers and maybe used F-16's can fill in the gaps too if possible. Even if PAF gets 2 squadrons of 5th gen aircraft to start with, it could slowly keep adding more. PAF might go for twin engine in 5th gen (although i doubt that), but going for an older generation twin engine JH-7 is almost out of question. J-10 has been discussed many times, unless PAF itself shows interest in J-10, I wouldn't bother discussing it.

J-10 or JH-7 bring little to no edge over IAF's Rafale acquisition, but a 5th gen can tilt the scenario in PAF's favour and until then sticking with JF-17 Block III seems plausible.

I would like to see a joint, multinational project for an advanced UCAV (full learning AI flown) by China, Pakistan, Turkey and South Africa. I'm sure they can come together and build something formidable.

I would like to see JF-17 controllable UAV's in PAF service and T-129 controllable UAV's in PAA service.

 

[denel]

I would like to see a joint, multinational project for an advanced UCAV (full learning AI flown) by China, Pakistan, Turkey and South Africa. I'm sure they can come together and build something formidable.

Dont forget to include Brazil. There is already a long term UAV MALE program locally ongoing.

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

 

[denel]

How many EA birds are to be transitioned? There were supposed to be around 70+; only 30 odd is being reported; will the others be knocked down for parts if at all salvagable?

 

[syed_yusuf]

Any update on mirage 5 from Egypt

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Any update on mirage 5 from Egypt

They were suppose to arrive some time this month. Maybe Allan Warnes will mention it in the Airforce Monthly June Edition!!!!!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,

In the JF17's case---the chinese wanted to prove themselves and they wanted to learn---so that gave the Paf a lot more leeway than it was possible---. South africans might not have been as flexible to Paf's demands---.

we dont offer any technical challenge or a significant defense / technology market share
South Africans may listen if Pakistan can offer one of the following that they find worthy

1. some technological breakthrough (or a proof of concept as you put it)
2. an offer of a sum of money (subjectively substantial)
3. Diplomatic/ Political benefits
4. the business case / worth of that partnership to a project & beyond

there is nothing worthy that Pakistan can offer when specially its at the mercy of IMF and FATF

South Africans might face some backlash (for merely doing business with Pakistan)
I understand that money is not everything it has to be more than that. they might see more opportunity cost or disadvantage doing business with us

granted Pakistan is not at the bad level of Iran but still there is a lot of bad rep for Pakistan due to continued American hostility towards Pakistan and continued Indian corporate sabotage of Pakistani deals across the globe

 

[denel]

we dont offer any technical challenge or a significant defense / technology market share
South Africans may listen if Pakistan can offer one of the following that they find worthy

1. some technological breakthrough (or a proof of concept as you put it)
2. an offer of a sum of money (subjectively substantial)
3. Diplomatic/ Political benefits
4. the business case / worth of that partnership to a project & beyond

there is nothing worthy that Pakistan can offer when specially its at the mercy of IMF and FATF

South Africans might face some backlash (for merely doing business with Pakistan)
I understand that money is not everything it has to be more than that. they might want to see more opportunity cost or disadvantage.
granted Pakistan is not at the bad level of Iran but still there is a lot of bad rep for Pakistan due to continued American hostility towards Pakistan and continued Indian corporate sabotage of Pakistani deals across the globe

Not true. We want business all the way. The times of pressure are not relevant to us.

Thank god we got rid of the parasites Guptas so no more captured govt, we are free and willing.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Not true. We want business all the way. The times of pressure are not relevant to us.

Thank god we got rid of the parasites Guptas so no more captured govt, we are free and willing.

I sincerely hope there is much from Pakistan to offer in addition to hard cash
i.e some good technology share and exchange from its JF 17 program and Mirage 3 /5 rebuild on diplomatic front I am not aware what Pakistan can offer that would interest South Africa. military to military and social / trade interaction has potential too

 

[denel]

I sincerely hope there is much from Pakistan to offer in addition to hard cash
i.e some good technology share and exchange from its JF 17 program and Mirage 3 /5 rebuild on diplomatic front I am not aware what Pakistan can offer that would interest South Africa. military to military and social / trade interaction has potential too

there is a huge areas of cooperation that can be done - on the mine proof vehicles, small arms, artillery, aam's etc. there is a huge interest in the mining community to relook at the potential; another is SASOL - to convert coal to liquid fuels to name a few.

 

[Sinnerman108]

we dont offer any technical challenge or a significant defense / technology market share
South Africans may listen if Pakistan can offer one of the following that they find worthy

1. some technological breakthrough (or a proof of concept as you put it)
2. an offer of a sum of money (subjectively substantial)
3. Diplomatic/ Political benefits
4. the business case / worth of that partnership to a project & beyond

there is nothing worthy that Pakistan can offer when specially its at the mercy of IMF and FATF

South Africans might face some backlash (for merely doing business with Pakistan)
I understand that money is not everything it has to be more than that. they might see more opportunity cost or disadvantage doing business with us

granted Pakistan is not at the bad level of Iran but still there is a lot of bad rep for Pakistan due to continued American hostility towards Pakistan and continued Indian corporate sabotage of Pakistani deals across the globe

I you haven't learned to appreciate the dutch in south africa.
These people can and will do business at any rate, and in any conditions.
Very pragmatic, and accommodating people.

 

[denel]

I you haven't learned to appreciate the dutch in south africa.
These people can and will do business at any rate, and in any conditions.
Very pragmatic, and accommodating people.

Correct, we dont obey the norms. For us there is not such this as cash, we always work around any form of transaction; that is why you will see our business right across the continent whereas Europeans/US shyed away. If you cannot deliver cash, we will do barter even.

Remember one saying - 'a boer always makes a plan'. This is part of our daily lives. Give me a wire and a plier i will make things with it.

I sincerely hope there is much from Pakistan to offer in addition to hard cash
i.e some good technology share and exchange from its JF 17 program and Mirage 3 /5 rebuild on diplomatic front I am not aware what Pakistan can offer that would interest South Africa. military to military and social / trade interaction has potential too

Our grip is the Pak leadership as well as the consulate officials including the defence attaches in Pretoria - they are playing around for decades; you just need to come here and see the corrupt people that are assigned. Can you believe it they steals mining scholarships meant for civilians and bring mil personnel to study. Heavens sake what have they got to do with mining degrees? Last time i checked when at Wits, there were over 20+ all over the age of 45+ with their wives - if that is not stealing from younger generation for whom these were meant for.
Sorry I digressed but it pains me to write this but until entire foreign affairs staff and their lackey's are thrown out of the mafia they have created here. Who imports carpets and other items via diplomatic couriers to sell?