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Dozens arrested at Sweden riots sparked by planned Quran burnings

I am of the view, and you are free to disagree with me, that freedom of expression is derived from the Islamic idea of of maqasid as sharia- that there are God-given human rights. The 4 schools of Sunni Islam are agreed that these rights can broadly be categorized under life, liberty, and socio-economic rights.
There is, of course, no need to squabble over the derivation of human rights; an agnostic, as I am, might say that an individual joining society and accepting social rules makes a sacrifice of his own rights. That in a state of raw nature, even within the situation of being in a tribe, and subject to the rules that the tribe observes, there is a clear distinction between the human being's ability to do whatever he or she wants, and the ability of the same human being to do what he or she wants within society.

Whether we assign it to divinity or not can be kept aside in acknowledging that these rights exist,

The point is to draw the lines between individual rights and the rights of the individuals living in society. That is where the borders are drawn, and that is where disputes are born.

In this case, causing pain and hurt to another member of society should and must be corrected; taking recourse to personal force to redress the pain and hurt is also illegal, in that it resorts to violence and possibly to damage makes it a greater offence, and renders the protestor just as liable to correction.

There is not much that the situation can yield beyond this fairly straightforward view.
 
That is wrong and shows that you dont understand european culture. Hate speech is adressing the people. If one denigrates muslims for being muslims ect. Critisizing religious books, burning books and caricatures regarding religions are completly legal and a fundamental right here.

So stop your usual selfpity.



Europe in general has far higher living standards and art standards than USA.
Europe is backwater compared to the US. Nothing special about it whatsoever. Certainly not a source of inspiration for me.

The boundary between attacking symbols and peoples is subjective at best. I would argue that holocaust denial is attacking a historic symbol. Not attacking Jewish people directly. Nonetheless, it falls under hate speech/ incitement/ etc. as does caricatures and holy book burning. Would be silly to squabble on this point.

There is, of course, no need to squabble over the derivation of human rights; an agnostic, as I am, might say that an individual joining society and accepting social rules makes a sacrifice of his own rights. That in a state of raw nature, even within the situation of being in a tribe, and subject to the rules that the tribe observes, there is a clear distinction between the human being's ability to do whatever he or she wants, and the ability of the same human being to do what he or she wants within society.

Whether we assign it to divinity or not can be kept aside in acknowledging that these rights exist,

The point is to draw the lines between individual rights and the rights of the individuals living in society. That is where the borders are drawn, and that is where disputes are born.

In this case, causing pain and hurt to another member of society should and must be corrected; taking recourse to personal force to redress the pain and hurt is also illegal, in that it resorts to violence and possibly to damage makes it a greater offence, and renders the protestor just as liable to correction.

There is not much that the situation can yield beyond this fairly straightforward view.
Joe, I don’t refer to the divine source of the rule except to make two points for the European audience. First, the point of freedom of expression is to further the cause of liberty which cannot be isolated from other aspects of liberty. Second, no need to snub your noses down on us Muslims. There is no conflict for the educated Muslim between ideals in his religion and enlightenment ideals.
 
India, Sweden, spain, Israel, France, US, facing same problem.
no they don't have same problems like India , those countries do have Toilets.

also they dont have lynch mobs killing people over suspected beef consumption.
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Europe is backwater compared to the US. Nothing special about it whatsoever. Certainly not a source of inspiration for me.

The boundary between attacking symbols and peoples is subjective at best. I would argue that holocaust denial is attacking a historic symbol. Not attacking Jewish people directly. Nonetheless, it falls under hate speech/ incitement/ etc. as does caricatures and holy book burning. Would be silly to squabble on this point.

I visited USA and would not want to live there. Rotten infrastructure, shabby and outdated cities. You land in New York and think...wow...this country is down. There are even pigeons inside the airport terminal...

Than it has no culture, no history. It appears like an empty shell. I liked the grand canyon and nature but the cities? Definitly not.


As for the rest, news say the quran burning got exactly what it was planned for. Polls show thatbthis swedish far right party got a big rise in the polls.
 
I visited USA and would not want to live there. Rotten infrastructure, shabby and outdated cities. You land in New York and think...wow...this country is down. There are even pigeons inside the airport terminal...

Than it has no culture, no history. It appears like an empty shell. I liked the grand canyon and nature but the cities? Definitly not.


As for the rest, news say the quran burning got exactly what it was planned for. Polls show thatbthis swedish far right party got a big rise in the polls.
Nothing special about Europe in cities regard. If you want well planned cities, go live in China. Europe might have slightly older cities but the thinking there is also old and labored. More nationalism and less open-minded.

Far-right getting popular is a given in the future. The more brown people they see, the more racist they will become. It’s true in the US too. Except over in the US, they have a civic idea of nationalism and not an ethnic idea of nationalism. So makes a significant difference.

Nothing special about Europe in cities regard. If you want well planned cities, go live in China. Europe might have slightly older cities but the thinking there is also old and labored. More nationalism and less open-minded.

Far-right getting popular is a given in the future. The more brown people they see, the more racist they will become. It’s true in the US too. Except over in the US, they have a civic idea of nationalism and not an ethnic idea of nationalism. So makes a significant difference.
I visited Europe - the continent is meh. Would rather live in Turkey than Europe.
 
Nothing special about Europe in cities regard. If you want well planned cities, go live in China. Europe might have slightly older cities but the thinking there is also old and labored. More nationalism and less open-minded.

Far-right getting popular is a given in the future. The more brown people they see, the more racist they will become. It’s true in the US too. Except over in the US, they have a civic idea of nationalism and not an ethnic idea of nationalism. So makes a significant difference.


I visited Europe - the continent is meh. Would rather live in Turkey than Europe.

Europe is a continent. I visited Canada and liked it. USA i did not like. So i would not say i dislike North America. Its obvious you did not visit Europe but maybe 1 or 2 countries.
 
What type of question are you even asking?
You’re well aware of the answer to that.
A “Muslim” peeing on Quranic verses is an act which takes them out of the fold of Islam and makes them an apostate.

The attachments below show what can take a person out the fold of Islam.
Well in that case a lot of Pakistanis would be out of Islam. Because they will write everything from Quranic verses to the Prophet's name on street level walls and then either themselves or animals pee on them, let them get filthy.
 
You and your comrades here are the real murtads. The sweat on my commie forehead is more Islamic than you by a light year.
“More Islamic” by wanting to change the verses in the Quran? “More Islamic” by accepting communist ideology? “More Islamic” by wanting to “reform” Islam?
Lol you guys are fitna spreaders and real murtad who wanted to “reform” Islam.
 
You can list down what you want. Doesnt change the fact that its completly in line with law here and a fundamental right in Europe.


Of course your bullshit can be easily dismissed.


US war crimes can be openly talked about here and is in evry nedia. Infact we have a whole antiamerican bullshit bingo faction in europe.

RT is not banned, its not alternative view, its kremlin bullshit aimed to spread misinformation. You can still see it if you want. I have no problem acessing that rubbish if i wanted too.


As i said learn to accept that different cultures value different things.

Blowing hot air aside, if poorer countries in EU are caught choosing between bowing to powerful financial interests offered (by the likes of the Chinese for example) and inconvenient morality, their leadership will capitulate like tinfoil to stay solvent and accept Chinese money, abandoning/compromising "morality" and rights of "open speech" faster than you can bat an eyelash. :cheesy:

In the US we have a saying, "Money talks and Bull$hit walks". As simple as that.

Your proclamations of "our open morality and our open laws" are valid only with bludgeoning poor people (like Muslims refugees) who you can lead around by the nose at will. Which is a smokescreen to encourage racism and softpedal oppression of minorities.

Even in the US - these types of Nazi ba$tards are not given police protections often nowadays, it creates public disturbances. These white supremacists are up to no good, sowing hate. I am glad that the Swedish Muslims are giving them a taste of their own medicine.

A few years ago in Bondi Beach in Sydney, some of these racist punks got a taste of it too from Muslims. They backed out after that.

Same deal in London where Brit-Bengalis created no-go areas when right wing caucasian hoodlums tried to mess with them.

Lesson is simple, Don't f*ck with us - we won't f*ck with you.

Brothers @beijingwalker , @TOTUU a penny for your thoughts....
 
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What about reading the holy book for once and paying attention to how God almighty values patience and rewards it. How violence as a first response is discouraged by hadees, sunnah and holy verses.

It is quite strange for the Holy Quran to preach one things and stronk defenders like yourself frothing out the opposite.

This desecration was done with the intention of showcasing and boxing in the religion that came to better oneself as something inherently violent. Congratulations, people with decadent brain cells seldom use them and lash out as a first response.

Come on, be brave, showcase this keyboard braggadacio, go out and enjoy that freedome of speech and demonstrate and protest. Try actual action rather than this verbal diarrhea.

A peacefull demonstration, a logical voice, a protest would have addressed the problem with the tact taught and proposed by the Holy Quran and would be consistent with Peacefull response Sunnah and hadees of the Holy prophet.


A question for you, if a Muslim prays five times a day, fasts during ramadan but acts contrary to the teaching of the Holy book, is he a Muslim.

Is Islam about the rituals or the teachings?

Looks like you your self need to read the Quran, Hadith and study what the salaf did.

Well in that case a lot of Pakistanis would be out of Islam. Because they will write everything from Quranic verses to the Prophet's name on street level walls and then either themselves or animals pee on them, let them get filthy.
If they go against the pictures I attached below, scholars have said those acts take a person out the fold of Islam. If that happens a lot in Pakistan then more Islamic education is needed. Allah is the most forgiving, they can always repent and read the shahada again.
 

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Europe is a continent. I visited Canada and liked it. USA i did not like. So i would not say i dislike North America. Its obvious you did not visit Europe but maybe 1 or 2 countries.
Yes that much is true- been only to London, and Amsterdam. And Istanbul and Moscow (which I am not counting). Wasn’t impressed.

It seems you may have only been to the one city in US too. Honestly, I never liked New York much. More of a DC or Seattle or Portland kind of guy. The cities in US are as different from one another as the country is big.
 
Nothing special about Europe in cities regard. If you want well planned cities, go live in China. Europe might have slightly older cities but the thinking there is also old and labored. More nationalism and less open-minded.

Far-right getting popular is a given in the future. The more brown people they see, the more racist they will become. It’s true in the US too. Except over in the US, they have a civic idea of nationalism and not an ethnic idea of nationalism. So makes a significant difference.


I visited Europe - the continent is meh. Would rather live in Turkey than Europe.

Some of these EU backwater countries boasting and blowing hot air about being members of the EU when they are nothing but a liability to EU's economic future. The EU's future itself about determining and leading humanity is a "has been" situation.

You can read the following which I found interesting.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For years, Western observers and media have been talking about the rise of Asia in terms of its massive future potential. But the time has come for the rest of the world to update its thinking—because the future arrived even faster than expected.

One of the most dramatic developments of the past 30 years has been emerging Asia’s soaring consumption and its integration into global flows of trade, capital, talent, and innovation. In the decades ahead, Asia’s economies will go from participating in these flows to determining their shape and direction. Indeed, in many areas—from the internet to trade and luxury goods—they already are. The question is no longer how quickly Asia will rise; it is how Asia will lead.

Of course, it is hard to generalize about such a vast swathe of the world, spanning myriad languages, ethnicities, and religions.1 These nations have widely varying forms of government, economic systems, and human-development indicators. Some have young and growing populations, while others are aging. Annual per capita income ranges from $849 in Nepal to $57,714 in Singapore. The region encompasses ancient ruins and bullet trains, rural farming villages and towering skyscrapers.


The common thread across this diverse region is an upward trajectory across key economic and social indicators. In 2000, Asia accounted for just under one-third of global GDP (in terms of purchasing power parity), and it is on track to top 50 percent by 2040. By that point, it is expected to account for 40 percent of the world’s total consumption. Asia is making not only economic progress but rapid strides in human development, from longer life spans and greater literacy to a dramatic surge in internet use.

The region’s rise has not only lifted hundreds of millions out of extreme poverty; it has also raised living standards more broadly for people of every income level. Urbanization is fueling economic growth and opening doors to education and public health services. But pockets of poverty and real development challenges remain. The breakneck pace of growth has left many cities struggling to provide the housing, infrastructure, and other services that their surging populations need. Countries across the region need to achieve more inclusive and sustainable economic growth to address inequality and environmental stresses.

Recent McKinsey Global Institute (MGI) research examined 71 developing economies and singled out 18 of them for consistently posting robust economic GDP growth. All seven long-term outperformers, and five out of 11 recent outperformers, are located in Asia. In recent decades, several Asian countries have propelled themselves into the ranks of middle-income and even advanced economies. This reflects the region’s ongoing industrialization and urbanization, its rising demand and productivity growth, and its dynamic corporate sector.

These trends represent a real shift in the world’s center of gravity. Scholar Parag Khanna asserts that the “Asian century” has begun and observes that the region’s rise is not cyclical but structural.2 Emerging Asia’s evolution has reached a stage that requires deeper global acknowledgment. It is upending assumptions—long held in the West, in other emerging economies, and even in Asia itself—about the world’s economic balance.
 
If they go against the pictures I attached below, scholars have said those acts take a person out the fold of Islam. If that happens a lot in Pakistan then more Islamic education is needed. Allah is the most forgiving, they can always repent and read the shahada again.

Going by the first picture, the "Dutifullness to parents" part, what if the parents do honor killing or push the child into wage slavery and do not lift a finger to correct the decades-old anti-human political and socio-economic norms of society which cause suicides, violence and oppression then do the parents fail in their "dutifulness" to their child and remove themselves from the folds of Islam and also do the "scholars" supporting such parents also remove themselves from the folds of Islam ?
 
Blowing hot air aside, if poorer countries in EU are caught choosing between bowing to powerful financial interests offered (by the likes of the Chinese for example) and inconvenient morality, their leadership will capitulate like tinfoil to stay solvent and accept Chinese money, abandoning/compromising "morality" and rights of "open speech" faster than you can bat an eyelash. :cheesy:

In the US we have a saying, "Money talks and Bull$hit walks". As simple as that.

Your proclamations of "our open morality and our open laws" are valid only with bludgeoning poor people (like Muslims refugees) who you can lead around by the nose at will. Which is a smokescreen to encourage racism and softpedal oppression of minorities.

Even in the US - these types of Nazi ba$tards are not given police protections often nowadays, it creates public disturbances. These white supremacists are up to no good, sowing hate. I am glad that the Swedish Muslims are giving them a taste of their own medicine.

A few years ago in Bondi Beach in Sydney, some of these racist punks got a taste of it too from Muslims. They backed out after that.

Same deal in London where Brit-Bengalis created no-go areas when right wing caucasian hoodlums tried to mess with them.

Lesson is simple, Don't f*ck with us - we won't f*ck with you.

Brothers @beijingwalker , @TOTUU a penny for your thoughts....

I dont agree with that. Just look at eastern Germany where muslims first acted tough in 2015 in city of Görlitz and result? The Germans hunted them out of town.

Btw there are no swedish muslims. There are immigrants who can be pushed out if the people of sweden decide to do so. Happened often enough in the past.

As an immigrant its important to know your place in society. The moment artitude turns, you are in great danger otherwise.

Yes that much is true- been only to London, and Amsterdam. And Istanbul and Moscow (which I am not counting). Wasn’t impressed.

It seems you may have only been to the one city in US too. Honestly, I never liked New York much. More of a DC or Seattle or Portland kind of guy. The cities in US are as different from one another as the country is big.

Was in New York, Miami, Sedona and San Francisco. Not a fan of any of those. Prefered hotels in national parks
 
I dont agree with that. Just look at eastern Germany where muslims first acted tough in 2015 in city of Görlitz and result? The Germans hunted them out of town.

Btw there are no swedish muslims. There are immigrants who can be pushed out if the people of sweden decide to do so. Happened often enough in the past.

As an immigrant its important to know your place in society. The moment artitude turns, you are in great danger otherwise.

You are clueless - you haven't dealt with these sorts of immigrants. :lol:

Good luck pushing them out on legit demands.

They are not going to back down by "knowing their place in society". This is not 1922, it is 2022.

White supremacists waxing nostalgic about that racist sentiment can shove it where the sun don't shine.

White supremacists don't control the EU - sane people do. That Rasmus guy can go pound sand all he wants.
 

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