Pakistan Military Officer Pay Scale/Recruitment

[sonicboom]

As an outsider who knows next to nothing about Pakistani society and even less about the PA, I would still disagree with this.

Perhaps JCOs and NCOs should be given more housing. But it is my contention that they cannot have the same perks as officers.

Look at the private sector. Do CEOs get the same perks as line staffers, for example example salesmen? Even though in a company salesmen outnumber CEOs by many hundreds/ thousands to one?

Do vice presidents get the same perks as mailmen? Do managers get the same perks as secretarys?

Nossir.

Just tell me how many Indian Army Officers are involved in real estate business and housing societies and how many plots are allotted to each of them?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sonicboom,

Before we start over your current series of posts, Xeric has already explained the situation over how officers save and contribute towards the plots they get in a previous post.

Please read that response and offer your opinions on it before we proceed further.

The double standard set by the GHQ, controlled by officers, when it comes to offering plots to army Officers and NCO’s/JCO’s.

I think this has been answered very well, and so far the majority opinion supports the contention that complete equality in pay and compensation, regardless of rank/position/qualifications, is just not tenable nor practical.

It is not a valid argument to continue.

What would be a valid argument is to ask whether the Army is looking at expanding benefits for the jawaan's, so that they can live a decent life and their children have an equal chance at education and success, and not whether the Army can make millionaires out of them.

Please take note on this point and adjust your queries accordingly.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

Just tell me how many Indian Army Officers are involved in real estate business and housing societies and how many plots are allotted to each of them?

Caveat: My knowledge of housing for Indian army officers is as outdated as the early 1990s, when my father retired as a Major General.

Civilian housing for Indian army officers is provided by the government through a housing scheme. There is not other mechanism by which IA officers can get involved in real estate.

This is a personal story - which proves nothing - but I offer it in lieu of any other information. Based on winning an army housing lottery(for location), my father paid (IIRC) Rs 3 lakh for a 1000 sq feet flat. It took almost all his savings, plus some of his pension.

The flat is located in a Delhi location that is prominent because of its - location. It isn't all that great in terms of construction. However, the housing society has perceived 'value' in the eyes of others because it is an 'army scheme' and the residents are mostly retired army personnel.
The flats are built on a no profit no loss basis. They are quite cheap as compared to market values; for example in 1990 the flat would have cost my father (guessing) Rs 10 lakh (he paid ~ Rs 3 lakh). Today it is valued at around Rs 60-70 lakh.

I would venture that 95% of the army residents (if not a 100%) are retired.

IIRC, you can only apply for one flat through your entire career.

JCOs and NCOs are also eligible to apply; however they typically apply in another category under the same scheme, but for flats which (presumably) are not as 'classy' or expensive as army officers flats.

So, while the civilian housing offered to IA officers does not seem to be as generous as their PA counterparts, it certainly is above and beyond that given to IA JCOs and NCOs. Also, the houses are built at a considerable discount to market prices.

Someone with more recent experience of the IA may be able to give more detail.

Ok, it's late night here. Gotta go; will answer any questions (if anyone has any) tomorrow.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

Duplicate.

 

[sonicboom]

Before we start over your current series of posts, Xeric has already explained the situation over how officers save and contribute towards the plots they get in a previous post.

Agnostic:

And that's not the response to my questions. I care less how officers save and buy plots. That's their personal matter. If they can do that, that's great.

I am only concerned alloting them up to 4 plots as stated in the parliament. Did you care to read that in my post? I would suggest that you go back and reat it again. Let's not beat about the bushes. You or any one can answer the following simple questions that I had asked in my earlier post and I will rest my case.

Please be brief and to the point.

1. Why an army officer has the need to be allotted up to 4 plots in housing societies and city centers? Is one plot not enough to quench his housing thirst?

2. If the plots were allotted to them for thier hosuing needs, then why did they sell them for millions of rupees to civilians?

3. Why the serving corps commanders are needed to execute the executive functionaries of the defense housing societies while drawing salaries from the public exchequer? Is that what they expect to do in case of war?

I think this has been answered very well, and so far the majority opinion supports the contention that complete equality in pay and compensation, regardless of rank/position/qualifications, is just not tenable nor practical.

It is not a valid argument to continue.

That's not the issue here and I had explained my position very clearly in my earlier post. If you really want to talk about on institutional level then following are the points for you to ponder from Nighat Yasmeen's post.

(i) How do you explain that a professor holding a Doctorate -- who started teaching at a public university 35 years back, before you joined the army -- is not entitled to a single residential plot whereas the property you have amassed-- squarely due to your military service -- is worth hundreds of millions rupees?

(ii) How come a brigadier in the army has more perks and privileges than the Chief Justice of Pakistan (his tamely churning out of order-made indemnifying verdicts notwithstanding).

(iii) Why a senior surgeon serving in a government hospital doesn’t get a fraction of monetary rewards as compared to what a GOC grabs without doing anything productive at all?

(iv) What does a police officer get from the state, despite risking his life, putting up with abuses and curses of the public on daily basis (and quite often flouting the law at the behest of the junta), in relation to good-for-nothing military officers?

(v) Where in the world, a FA or at the most BA passed supervisor/foreman in a security firm is multi-millionaire, by default, on his retirement, entirely because of his job?

(vi) Which government service, irrespective of tenure, academic qualifications and/or assignments, in the entire region of South Asia, results in comparable amount of financial gains than that of military career in Pakistan? What extraordinary, the military of Pakistan accomplishes to deserve the amazing remunerations?


More points to ponder from Irfan Hussein:

1. It can be argued that those serving in the armed forces should receive greater rewards since they risk their lives in defending the country. Perhaps one should just look at the facts: we have not fought a formal war for 33 years and yet we continue to support five soldiers versus only two policemen per 1,000 citizens.

2. As far as laying down one`s life is concerned, the total number of men and officers killed in all three previous wars put together is less than the number of policemen killed in Karachi alone over the last 10 years.

3. The problem is also not merely of officers grabbing plots of land; the official system of salaries and rewards is intrinsically corrupt. The inspector-general of the Punjab police commanding more men than three corps put together gets a monthly uniform allowance of Rs250, whilst an army second lieutenant is paid Rs1,250 per month as kit allowance (in addition to ``disturbance pay`` for being married, a batman allowance, etc.)

4. To give plots to military officers for building their own houses is a genuine welfare activity and no one would grudge it. But is the building of multi-billion integrated luxury homes with golf course townships in a posh locality in Lahore or the multi-billion dollar development of Karachi beach in association with foreign partnership also a legitimate welfare activity that should be undertaken by the military?

And lastly, it's not just me, article after article has been written on this issue in print media by both civilians and retired army officers.

Note: No need to get itchy, this is my last post on this particular issue so feel relax.

Regards

 

[Muradk]

Darn why didnt i join the PAF!!

If yes, why heck they are behind the Army's butt, i think PAF forms the best candidate for this worthless bashing

Army is to big and 99% projects are theirs. PAF has been a powerful force but never had the lust of a coup which if needed a COAS can take over 2 min faster than Mushi did.
Yes PAF still has and gets powerful posts but Army puts there person first than PAF and last is PN.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

Army is to big and 99% projects are theirs. PAF has been a powerful force but never had the lust of a coup which if needed a COAS can take over 2 min faster than Mushi did.
Yes PAF still has and gets powerful posts but Army puts there person first than PAF and last is PN.

PAF is not fit for staging a coup. It does not have power on the ground, which is essential for taking over the government. Imagine a fighter aircraft knocking at the door of presidents' house, and telling him to step down from his post?

Otherwise, PAF people are no less in their lust for power. What army is doing to the country, the PAF is doing to itself. Army plants generals at all important posts in the country, so, the right and qualified people never get through. PAF plants pilots at all important posts inside its own organization, so, the right and qualified people never get through.

** After presenting another solid fact, pakistanMYheart eats popcorn and waits for unrelated, abusive and rude remarks **

 

[sonicboom]

Eyelessingaza

Based on winning an army housing lottery(for location), my father paid (IIRC) Rs 3 lakh for a 1000 sq feet flat. It took almost all his savings, plus some of his pension.

WOW, so your dad had to participate in lottery and pay for the plot. But that's not the case for Pakistan army officers. They get allotted up to 4 plots depending on the length of the service as I indicated in my previous post for pennies or nothing. I am all in favor of one plot per officer for their housing needs but for 4, heck no.

Read the following two quotes and then you be the judge:

IN answer to a Question in the Senate, the federal government has revealed that 485 residential plots in various cities of all four provinces were allotted to Army officers between October 1999 and July 2003. Though the plots were allotted to officers of all ranks from full general down to lieutenant, no less than 103 plots of 800 sq yds (plus or minus) were allotted to 45 general officers (major-generals and above). Of these plots, 46 were allotted in Karachi, 36 in Lahore. These plots were not allotted at a subsidy; they were given away almost free. Technically leased, the terms were token: Rs 5 per sq yd premium, with an annual lease of Rs 0.50 per sq yd. This works out to Rs 4000 for a plot just over one and a half kanals, with an annual rent of Rs 80. Even in a depressed real estate market, the worth would be at least Rs 6 million. (Note: this news is several years old)

Just last year when as many as 200 old settlements were being bulldozed in Karachi in the Lyari Expressway scheme, 248 acres of prime land on the sea front were given to the Defense Housing Authority at the rate of Rs20 per square yard. The value of this land had been evaluated at Rs. 25,000 per square yard for commercial use and Rs. 15,000 per square yard for residential purposes.

I bet that can't happen in India.

I would venture that 95% of the army residents (if not a 100%) are retired.

But that's not the case here in Pakistan. More than 95% of the residents in defense housing societies are civilians. This tells me that it's not the housing need for army officers but the greed for money. Real estate is a big business for army officers and hence the resentment from the people. They ruled over Pakistan more than 30 years and did whatever they want. No wonder why my country is in such a mess.

IIRC, you can only apply for one flat through your entire career.

WOW, no comments!

JCOs and NCOs are also eligible to apply; however they typically apply in another category under the same scheme, but for flats which (presumably) are not as 'classy' or expensive as army officers flats.

I wish we can do the same for NCO's?JOC's of Pakistan Army.

 

[Patriot]

PAF is not fit for staging a coup. It does not have power on the ground, which is essential for taking over the government. Imagine a fighter aircraft knocking at the door of presidents' house, and telling him to step down from his post?

Otherwise, PAF people are no less in their lust for power. What army is doing to the country, the PAF is doing to itself. Army plants generals at all important posts in the country, so, the right and qualified people never get through. PAF plants pilots at all important posts inside its own organization, so, the right and qualified people never get through.

** After presenting another solid fact, pakistanMYheart eats popcorn and waits for unrelated, abusive and rude remarks **

Absolutely our Generals and Air Marshals are fools.We should place idiots like you in Generals or Air Marshals positions.You are just making a fool out of yourself.All World Armies have Generals and Air Marshals/Air Force Generals.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

Absolutely our Generals and Air Marshals are fools.We should place idiots like you in Generals or Air Marshals positions.You are just making a fool out of yourself.All World Armies have Generals and Air Marshals/Air Force Generals.

Some idiot you are. Your reply is not at all related to my comments. Use some of your intelligence (if you have it), and reply me sensibly.

When did I say Air Marshals or Generals are fools?
When did I say they are not fit for their job?
When did I say that all world Armies do not have generals?

I was exactly right in saying that:

** After presenting another solid fact, pakistanMYheart eats popcorn and waits for unrelated, abusive and rude remarks **

 

[sonicboom]

Absolutely our Generals and Air Marshals are fools.We should place idiots like you in Generals or Air Marshals positions.You are just making a fool out of yourself.All World Armies have Generals and Air Marshals/Air Force Generals.

No need to get rude. Please read his post once again carefully. He said:

Army plants generals at all important posts in the country, so, the right and qualified people never get through.

Is that not true?

Read the following and tell me why we need generals in all part of the civil society even in education. Don't we have qualified people in those departments?

Sources told Dawn that army officers were being called back from 23 civil departments. The highest number of 61 army officers being called back is presently working in the National Accountability Bureau (NAB) which was set up by Gen (retd) Pervez Musharraf soon after taking over the power on October 12, 1999. Later, the NAB became a controversial organisation, and many opposition parties openly criticised its performance and termed it a tool in the hands of the military rulers to gain political advantage.

Similarly, the sources said, 21 army officers working in the National Database Registration Authority (Nadra) and 18 in the Water and Power Development Authority (Wapda) had also been asked to report back to the GHQ.

Other departments from where army officers are being called back include the National Highways Authority, Azad Jammu and Kashmir Accountability Bureau, Ministry of Interior, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, National Crisis Management Cell, Intelligence Bureau (IB), National Reconstruction Bureau (NRB), education departments, provincial governments, National Institute of Science, Technology and Engineering (NISTE), Customs Intelligence, Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), Pakistan Steel Mills, Establishment Division and AJK PM Secretariat.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agnostic:

And that's not the response to my questions. I care less how officers save and buy plots. That's their personal matter. If they can do that, that's great.

I am only concerned alloting them up to 4 plots as stated in the parliament. Did you care to read that in my post? I would suggest that you go back and reat it again. Let's not beat about the bushes. You or any one can answer the following simple questions that I had asked in my earlier post and I will rest my case.

Whats wrong with four plots, depending upon how long ones career in the Army is and the rank one achieves? On its own it is not enough to merit criticism IMO, since it is part of the compensation package the Army has for its officers.

If parliament thinks the compensation is too much, it should try and adjust the rules accordingly.

1. Why an army officer has the need to be allotted up to 4 plots in housing societies and city centers? Is one plot not enough to quench his housing thirst?

I have asked you to be civil, and you insist on using inflammatory language. This WILL be your last warning. Don't make derogatory generalizations such as 'housing thirst, thirst for plots etc.' The rest of us are carrying on this discussion with civility, the least you can do is reciprocate.

The response to the question itself is the same as my first paragraph in this post.

2. If the plots were allotted to them for thier hosuing needs, then why did they sell them for millions of rupees to civilians?

They are at the end of the day 'compensation', whether used for their own housing or put up for sale. It is the prerogative of the recipients to do as they wish with their property.

3. Why the serving corps commanders are needed to execute the executive functionaries of the defense housing societies while drawing salaries from the public exchequer? Is that what they expect to do in case of war?

Can't comment on this since I do not know what tangible services the Corp's commanders render as 'executive functionaries of the defense housing societies'. You would have to provide some more information in terms of whether their position is largely ceremonial in this respect, or whether it poses a significant distraction from their military duties and responsibilities as Corp Commanders.

That's not the issue here and I had explained my position very clearly in my earlier post. If you really want to talk about on institutional level then following are the points for you to ponder from Nighat Yasmeen's post.

(i) How do you explain that a professor holding a Doctorate -- who started teaching at a public university 35 years back, before you joined the army -- is not entitled to a single residential plot whereas the property you have amassed-- squarely due to your military service -- is worth hundreds of millions rupees?

(ii) How come a brigadier in the army has more perks and privileges than the Chief Justice of Pakistan (his tamely churning out of order-made indemnifying verdicts notwithstanding).

(iii) Why a senior surgeon serving in a government hospital doesn’t get a fraction of monetary rewards as compared to what a GOC grabs without doing anything productive at all?

(iv) What does a police officer get from the state, despite risking his life, putting up with abuses and curses of the public on daily basis (and quite often flouting the law at the behest of the junta), in relation to good-for-nothing military officers?

(v) Where in the world, a FA or at the most BA passed supervisor/foreman in a security firm is multi-millionaire, by default, on his retirement, entirely because of his job?

(vi) Which government service, irrespective of tenure, academic qualifications and/or assignments, in the entire region of South Asia, results in comparable amount of financial gains than that of military career in Pakistan? What extraordinary, the military of Pakistan accomplishes to deserve the amazing remunerations?

That is an issue that has also been explored - as I said before, a PhD in engineering will likely not earn anywhere close to what a Physician does.

Different fields, different organizations and different levels of remuneration. Perhaps one should ask the remaining institutions why they are not able to utilize their resources more effectively to offer better compensation to their top talent.

In addition, I do not agree that all of those who do make it to the highest level are equivalent to FA/BA pass, since military officers continue studies and take course both at home and abroad at defence colleges and institutions, along with continued education in the form of training with other forces and in other institutions.

More points to ponder from Irfan Hussein:

1. It can be argued that those serving in the armed forces should receive greater rewards since they risk their lives in defending the country. Perhaps one should just look at the facts: we have not fought a formal war for 33 years and yet we continue to support five soldiers versus only two policemen per 1,000 citizens.

The fact that we have not fought a formal war IMO is also due to the fact that we have a strong conventional and unconventional deterrent, and not because there is a lack of a threat. And even that conventional deterrent is accomplished at a fraction of the cost the opposing side expends. IH's logic here is confounding.

That said, while the external threat justifies the military, there is no question that there needs to be more investment in law enforcement along with reforms and accountability to make it more efficient. But that too is an issue that our civilian government has to take up, and at the moment is at least making the right noises about.

2. As far as laying down one`s life is concerned, the total number of men and officers killed in all three previous wars put together is less than the number of policemen killed in Karachi alone over the last 10 years.

A tragedy, but again, this is not a zero sum game and cannot be a zero sum game - the external threat (and now the internal one as well) is real, as is the need for more investment in local law enforcement.

3. The problem is also not merely of officers grabbing plots of land; the official system of salaries and rewards is intrinsically corrupt. The inspector-general of the Punjab police commanding more men than three corps put together gets a monthly uniform allowance of Rs250, whilst an army second lieutenant is paid Rs1,250 per month as kit allowance (in addition to ``disturbance pay`` for being married, a batman allowance, etc.)

Again, please keep in mind my warning about remaining civil in this discussion and refraining from inflammatory language about 'officers grabbing plots' and whatnot.

I do see the higher 'kit allowance' of a soldier as being reasonable, given that military 'kit' is somewhat more expansive than that of a police officer. Overall I think both are somewhat low, and should be increased. Again, the failure of the government to reform the police and provide the proper funding for it is not the fault of the Army. The current civilian government says that it understands the need to build up local law enforcement, and hopefully it shall do what it says and bring the quality of LEA up to that of the Military.

4. To give plots to military officers for building their own houses is a genuine welfare activity and no one would grudge it. But is the building of multi-billion integrated luxury homes with golf course townships in a posh locality in Lahore or the multi-billion dollar development of Karachi beach in association with foreign partnership also a legitimate welfare activity that should be undertaken by the military?

As long as it is legal, why not?

And lastly, it's not just me, article after article has been written on this issue in print media by both civilians and retired army officers.

yes, but they mostly seem rants, such as IH's first article you quoted, with some making sound arguments.

Note: No need to get itchy, this is my last post on this particular issue so feel relax.

Regards

So long as you heed the warnings about remaining civil and not flaming, I have no issues. There are certain lines of argument that have been shown to be a non-issue, so those should be dropped.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Absolutely our Generals and Air Marshals are fools.We should place idiots like you in Generals or Air Marshals positions.You are just making a fool out of yourself.All World Armies have Generals and Air Marshals/Air Force Generals.

Refrain from the personal attacks please. Deliberately ignoring moderator warnings (made repeatedly on this thread) will earn you a ban.

Some idiot you are.

That also goes for those responding to flames. Report the post and ignore it. Responding in kind will get you banned as well.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

PAF is not fit for staging a coup. It does not have power on the ground, which is essential for taking over the government. Imagine a fighter aircraft knocking at the door of presidents' house, and telling him to step down from his post?

Otherwise, PAF people are no less in their lust for power. What army is doing to the country, the PAF is doing to itself. Army plants generals at all important posts in the country, so, the right and qualified people never get through. PAF plants pilots at all important posts inside its own organization, so, the right and qualified people never get through.

The Army under Kiyani has withdrawn most serving Army officials back from civilian departments. It is a practice that should continue IMO.

But as to your original point, PAF pilots are trained in handling weapons, and they do have an SSW, so they wouldn't need a 'Jet' knowing on the door of the PM or presidency.

However, while the Army can stage a coup without PAF assistance, the PAF cannot do so without PA assistance or acquiescence. At the least the PAF would need the PA to act as a silent bystander while it staged a coup, and accept whatever government emerged at the end.

** After presenting another solid fact, pakistanMYheart eats popcorn and waits for unrelated, abusive and rude remarks **

While the rest have adjusted their posts to be largely civil, you and SB have continued with the taunts, flames and derogatory comments. As I said to SB, this will be the last warning, because this is just inane behavior.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

Refrain from the personal attacks please. Deliberately ignoring moderator warnings (made repeatedly on this thread) will earn you a ban.



That also goes for those responding to flames. Report the post and ignore it. Responding in kind will get you banned as well.

I never mean to write such posts. But I just cant remain silent when somebody else attacks me. But I will comply with your warning in future, and report such posts instead of replying them.