Stunning info about Indian's missile projects by Dr.Saraswat

[Indo-guy]

Yes I thought so, but the slides are aven older and include even projects that were srcapped long ago. However, it still gives us some interesting insights into DRDOs plans and works, but then again, I would prefer more results and less plans.

some wastage is natural in course of evolution of any technology .

There may be many compelling reasons to scrap particular project/s

That itself may serve important role - some projects must be scrapped so that more important and feasible projects are given attention.

wastage may be little more apparent with DRDO than ISRO.

 

[sancho]

some wastage is natural in course of evolution of any technology .

There may be many compelling reasons to scrap particular project/s

That itself may serve important role - some projects must be scrapped so that more important and feasible projects are given attention.

wastage may be little more apparent with DRDO than ISRO.

Of course, there can't be success only not even ISRO have shown that, but at DRDOs case there is far too little success compared to what they planned and promised.

 

[Kinetic]

Of course, there can't be success only not even ISRO have shown that, but at DRDOs case there is far too little success compared to what they planned and promised.

Really, apart from LCA, which projects are u talking about "too little"!! Didnt expect this BS from u.

 

[Indo-guy]

Really, apart from LCA, which projects are u talking about "too little"!! Didnt expect this BS from u.

DRDO is doing extraordinarily well in most of the missile segments .

It may not have lived upto expectations in many other segments .

It's a mixed kind of verdict .

 

[sancho]

Really, apart from LCA, which projects are u talking about "too little"!! Didnt expect this BS from u.

Kaveri engine, fighter radars, drones project compared to the success that even smaller countries with far limited capabilities shows, the armord vehicle side is just poor, NAG development delays...

DRDO is doing extraordinarily well in most of the missile segments .

At some, not in all K15 far below the operational needs, as mentioned NAG, Astra after several design changes still not ready, Trishul SAM failed. Where they do good is the missile propulsion side, as well as avionics navigation systems.

 

[Nilesh Singh]

Kaveri engine, fighter radars, drones project compared to the success that even smaller countries with far limited capabilities shows, the armord vehicle side is just poor, NAG development delays...


THIS is my first post but i have been keen follower of PDF for last 2 years, as i was having very less knowledge related to defense, i was keenly following member like @sancho, @indo guy, @trident2010, @seiko, @kurup, @acetophenol , @sandy_3126, @Abingdonboy and many others. Through my first post i want to thank all of you of bringing valuable knowledge to this type of forum.

 

[Nilesh Singh]

THIS is my first post but i have been keen follower of PDF for last 2 years, as i was having very less knowledge related to defense, i was keenly following member like @sancho, @indo guy, @@trident2010, @@seiko, @@kurup, @@acetophenol , @@sandy_3126, @@Abingdonboy and many others. Through my first post i want to thank all of you of bringing valuable knowledge to this type of forum.

 

[acetophenol]

THIS is my first post but i have been keen follower of PDF for last 2 years, as i was having very less knowledge related to defense, i was keenly following member like @sancho, @indo guy, @@trident2010, @@seiko, @@kurup, @@acetophenol , @@sandy_3126, @@Abingdonboy and many others. Through my first post i want to thank all of you of bringing valuable knowledge to this type of forum.

 

[amardeep mishra]

That double range is because of multiple factors:
-use of composites in the second stage
-better fuel grain quality and fuel geometry in both rocket motors
-reduced RV mass

Hi @The Deterrent
I have been to numerious such DRDO seminars and interacted with a couple of research engineers,and since the information is already available in public domain i will re-iterate again-
The range of A-5 was increased to 5000+(Note the "+" and DRDO hasnt yet officially claimed the range figures for A5) because of numerous factors some prominent factors are-

(a)Addition of 3rd stage
(b)Usage of composite rocket motors in 2nd and 3rd stage which drastically reduced the weight of A5(you should refer to the pics of A-6 and SLBMs and see what technologies will be implemented in these two missiles)
(c) Enhanced usage of MEMS based sensors and actuators instead of older electro-hydraulic systems that occupied a lot of weight/volume
and to lesser extent by usage of a different type of propellant grain- HEMRL is the lab that does research in chemical processes associated with various propellant types ranging from hydroxyl terminated polybutadiene to various nitramines based propellant and i can quote a few research papers again that are available in public domain

But 22 tons is a too small figure for overall launch mass of Agni-III (or any BM of that class/characteristics), it can only be considered as a misunderstood one. The same reasons are already being implemented in form of Agni-V and VI as I said.

@The Deterrent
This is actually quite plausible,because the weight of A4(which is a precursor to A5 and has a range of 4000kms) is only 17 tonnes besides Tessy thomas who was the program manager of A5 has gone on record saying that there were design flaws in A3 and hence they had to work from the scratch to improve the A3 design and by doing so,they ended up reducing the weight to close to 20 tonnes!But overall A4 is a much better system vis-a-vis A3 thanks to itz light weight,increased composites,and it is perhaps the first indian strategic missile that features extensive usage of MEMS based sensors and actuators that formed the test bed for A5 and A6 development

Where they do good is the missile propulsion side, as well as avionics navigation systems.

have you ever REALIZED that you should refrain from commenting when you dont know the ENTIRE PICTURE? Or have the first hand knowledge of things you are talking?This was precisely the reason why i stopped replying to your posts yet i couldn't refrain myself here- my advice to you is-
(a) stop following trishul blog
(b) instead go and visit a lab and talk to research engineer
(c) read a couple of research papers produced by DRDO in DSJ which is apretty decent research journal in the field of defence sciences

 

[The Deterrent]

@The Deterrent
This is actually quite plausible,because the weight of A4(which is a precursor to A5 and has a range of 4000kms) is only 17 tonnes besides Tessy thomas who was the program manager of A5 has gone on record saying that there were design flaws in A3 and hence they had to work from the scratch to improve the A3 design and by doing so,they ended up reducing the weight to close to 20 tonnes!But overall A4 is a much better system vis-a-vis A3 thanks to itz light weight,increased composites,and it is perhaps the first indian strategic missile that features extensive usage of MEMS based sensors and actuators that formed the test bed for A5 and A6 development

I'm not sure how that can be since Agni-III has almost twice the volume of Agni-IV. Even if all-composite structure is used, it still simply can't be that low.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Don't know if these are designs of actual systems (Agni-VI/SLBM), and not taken from the internet to show as examples.
But if they are, it seems that the SLBM would be an advanced and complex improvement on Agni-VI, featuring shorter overall length, 3rd stage in nose fairing, extendable nozzles.

Hi deterrent!
These are actual designs being worked out by DRDL/ASL for A6 and SLBM and yes these pics are indeed from a research seminar organized at IIT bombay

I'm not sure how that can be since Agni-III has almost twice the volume of Agni-IV. Even if all-composite structure is used, it still simply can't be that low.

Drdo had to give away that open truss structure which reduced a decent volume and besides when 4000kms ranged A4 weighs 17t i think A3 can be re-designed(which they actually ended up doing) to weigh in a similar bracket

 

[vsdave2302]

Why worry about range we are right next doors

Pakistan is our brother.

Realistic range/payload figures, should put fanboy dreams to rest.

Haha, now Agni-6 is the type of missile where SFC can actually reduce the payload and increase range, by integrating lesser RVs during launch prep, although won't be possible if it is canisterized.

It is not any fanboy assesment. In one you tube video, Saraswat himself says that you can increase Agni's range as you want. It can be increased to 6000 kM , It can be 7000 KM and as much you like. Atleast Chinese scienstist who says that indian missile A5's range is 9000 are not Fanboy. You will atleast accept that.

Agni-V is the result of improvement on Agni-III. And Agni-VI will be the result of improvement on Agni-V.
So doing the same for Agni-III would only increase costs, instead working on Agni-VI will be better.

But 22 tons is a too small figure for overall launch mass of Agni-III (or any BM of that class/characteristics), it can only be considered as a misunderstood one. The same reasons are already being implemented in form of Agni-V and VI as I said.

22 Tons weight is confirmed by Tessy Thomas herself. We have a longer A4 with 1.3 dia motor weighing 17 tons. What contradiction did you find in A3 weighing 22 tons?

@The Deterrent
Not really. Each Brahmos costs $5 million.

Half the reason we are building Nirbhay is because we cannot afford to launch Brahmos in mass numbers.
It is too expensive to be used constantly.

We have already ordered $2 Billion worth of Brahmos between the 2 services(IA and IN). The third service is yet to place its orders. You do the maths.

Nirbhay will cost around $1.5 million per missile. Even that is expected to come down with serial production as its built entirely in India unlike Brahmos which has Russian built parts which means price inflexibility.

For each Brahmos, we should be able to afford around 4 Nirbhays(at series production cost). Which means that mass volleys can be fired daily in war.

Brahmos would only be used on High Value-Time Critical targets.

Now if we build a hypersonic long range CM - around 1000kms, the cost would undoubtedly be more than $5 million. By how much? I would not speculate.
But to be game changers, you need to have them in mass numbers regardless of how good the technology is - The supersonic LRCM would be in limited numbers.


Agni IV is a TD. Not a deployement missile. Kinetic is right. It will happen in the future, not right now.

Because Brahmos uses russian parts including critical engine. LRCM will use indian engine so cost will come down.

Good finds. Agni-5 in the pic resembles actual Agni-5, so we can take these pic as real.

Yeah, Agni-6 and SLBM looks very advanced.

Also many of the technologies mentioned already in use by ISRO for many years like Star trackers, small ion/nuclear thrusters, advanced TVC etc.




We are moving fast on every field, except one!!! We need better and more submarines. We need to develop long range unmanned small submarines which can fire torpedoes. Why I have a feeling that in a war we may not have decisive advantages over enemy in terms of submarines!!

Though, yes, we have some of the most advanced anti-submarine systems.

Airindependent Propulsin Subs are coming with Scorpine 5 and 6.

 

[The Deterrent]

Drdo had to give away that open truss structure which reduced a decent volume and besides when 4000kms ranged A4 weighs 17t i think A3 can be re-designed(which they actually ended up doing) to weigh in a similar bracket

If that is the case, why is the launch mass of Agni-V & Agni-VI specified as 50,000 kg and 58,000 kg respectively, in the same presentation slide? Why can't the same technology be re-applied to a missile still in the design phase?

In all probability, either Tessy Thomas has been misquoted or she was referring to empty launch weight as 22 tons (without fuel).

 

[amardeep mishra]

If that is the case, why is the launch mass of Agni-V & Agni-VI specified as 50,000 kg and 58,000 kg respectively, in the same presentation slide? Why can't the same technology be re-applied to a missile still in the design phase?

In all probability, either Tessy Thomas has been misquoted or she was referring to empty launch weight as 22 tons (without fuel).

A6 has a weight of 56t and not 58t,And the reason why A5 and A6 weigh the way the do,is probably because their true ranges are evidently more than what has been portrayed by DRDO,(i mean that is what appears for now)

 

[kaku1]

Kaveri engine, fighter radars, drones project compared to the success that even smaller countries with far limited capabilities shows, the armord vehicle side is just poor, NAG development delays...


At some, not in all K15 far below the operational needs, as mentioned NAG, Astra after several design changes still not ready, Trishul SAM failed. Where they do good is the missile propulsion side, as well as avionics navigation systems.

One question, isnt in future Astra would be converted to Barak-1 like missile for point defense.