De-hyphenating India-Pakistan!!

[VCheng]

Pakistan tried that. During the Cold War the U.S., perceiving India as hostile, armed Pakistan to the teeth. Negotiations between India and Pakistan took place, some to Pakistan's advantage - but Pakistan's leaders could not resist temptation and initiated a war of conquest in 1965. (Suggest you don't debate until you've read the relevant bits of the declassified FOREIGN RELATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES, 1964–1968, VOLUME XXV, SOUTH ASIA)

Yes, Pakistan blew it then. But does that mean India should also blow it now?

 

[FaujHistorian]

A politically weak Pakistan is in our benefit and nothing unites Pakistan as admitted by many people on this forum, their hate towards India. And by not engaging with the civilian government we might be folding a card which can be played at a time of our choosing.

Terms like "unite", "hate", etc. are so 20th century.

Bhai jaan

move forward to 21st century for a change.

Pakistan like any nation state has some strong underlying factors to keep it together. Sure, we do consider "self preservation" as one of the aspects when dealing with Bharatis.

But this in itself is not the main source or pillar of our foundation.

Pakistanis do and will come together based on shared interests between its people. This is why our elections for many cycles are never based on "we'll crush Bharat".

Instead the main theme's are development, justice, and equality.

Off course Bharati elections do use "Hum Pakistan ko maarain gay", and from chai wala to sarkari baboos everyone repeats this mantar subha dopehr shaam.

Say 90 out of 100 Indian posters on a Pakistani Defense forums, do the same juntar mantar. your posts are a very good example of this madness.

So get some sense so you could do justice with your avatar aka ranjeet.

Pakistan tried that. During the Cold War the U.S., perceiving India as hostile, armed Pakistan to the teeth. Negotiations between India and Pakistan took place, some to Pakistan's advantage - but Pakistan's leaders could not resist temptation and initiated a war of conquest in 1965. (Suggest you don't debate until you've read the relevant bits of the declassified FOREIGN RELATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES, 1964–1968, VOLUME XXV, SOUTH ASIA)

Oh brother Solomon. Brother Brother braaaather.

Please do not repeat 5th grade government village school history books here.

1965 was the outcome of series of events and not just an event by itself.

if you want to know what was going on back then, do some study. Read a bit of resolutions passed in India's national and provincial parliament. Nehru's policies, water issues, border skirmishes, and on and on.

65 was unnecessary and I say it based on my study of military history. But that doesn't mean a poster like you come here and cherry pick your views in order to justify your narrow mindedness.

Shalom

 

[Kaniska]

Your post makes sense....but it is difficult to achive due to our histroy which is not on the side of good India and Pakistan relation...So in order to have a genuine non aggressiveness to each other, we have to build a histroy where we may not be friends but at least we can be non agressive to each other...And in order to do that, we should completely ignore each other for 10-20 year so that at least we can say that we are a good neighour where we do not work against each other interests...Pakistan should not comment on any of the things in India not India should do anything too...

I think this is the best way to approach where after 20 year, a new generation will be in the forefront and who knows they have a positive thought to talk to each other..

Terms like "unite", "hate", etc. are so 20th century.

Bhai jaan

move forward to 21st century for a change.

Pakistan like any nation state has some strong underlying factors to keep it together. Sure, we do consider "self preservation" as one of the aspects when dealing with Bharatis.

But this in itself is not the main source or pillar of our foundation.

Pakistanis do and will come together based on shared interests between its people. This is why our elections for many cycles are never based on "we'll crush Bharat".

Instead the main theme's are development, justice, and equality.

Off course Bharati elections do use "Hum Pakistan ko maarain gay", and from chai wala to sarkari baboos everyone repeats this mantar subha dopehr shaam.

Say out of 100 posters on a Pakistani Defense forums, do the same juntar mantar. your posts are a very good example of this madness.

So get some sense so you could do justice with your avatar aka ranjeet.



Oh brother Solomon. Brother Brother braaaather.

Please do not repeat 5th grade government village school history books here.

1965 was the outcome of series of events and not just an event by itself.

if you want to know what was going on back then, do some study. Read a bit of resolutions passed in India's national and provincial parliament. Nehru's policies, water issues, border skirmishes, and on and on.

65 was unnecessary and I say it based on my study of military history. But that doesn't mean a poster like you come here and cherry pick your views in order to justify your narrow mindedness.

Shalom

 

[FaujHistorian]

I don't think I follow.
For example I don't think govt. of Finland and Argentina work together on a lot of things. Does not mean they have terrorist attacks there.
I asked you two things :

1.Govts. working together and terrorist attacks.. how they are related ?

2. What kind of work are we talking about ?

Anyways, you don't have to answer that.

Bhai jaan,

you are a good poster. Don't let this type of questions lower your standards. Thank you.

Finland and Argentina are not next door neighbors.

Please use better examples.

 

[Kaniska]

And again, i forgot to mention, that there are groups in both India and Pakistan whoose interests are served when India and Pakistan are not in good terms...Both Gov has the advantage of blaming to India or Pakistan for all the sins that is happening in their country, knowing fully well that they are also responsible for it....So in a nutshell India and Pakistan animosity is a big commercial and political enterprise, and it is not so easy to break it when many stakeholders are getting benift out of it...

 

[FaujHistorian]

Your post makes sense....but it is difficult to achive due to our histroy which is not on the side of good India and Pakistan relation...So in order to have a genuine non aggressiveness to each other, we have to build a histroy where we may not be friends but at least we can be non agressive to each other...And in order to do that, we should completely ignore each other for 10-20 year so that at least we can say that we are a good neighour where we do not work against each other interests...Pakistan should not comment on any of the things in India not India should do anything too...

I think this is the best way to approach where after 20 year, a new generation will be in the forefront and who knows they have a positive thought to talk to each other..

This is precisely what has happened since 1947.

Bharatis never imagined that modern day Pakistan will survive through 1950.

When we did, guess what, Bharati gov tried every thing in their power to demolish the very idea of Pakistan through active and passive agressiveness.

They wanted to isolate Bahrat from Pakistan. And guess what, we now have generation of Bharatis (even on this forum) who are totally and wholly ignorant nay ignoramouses of the highest order.

9 out of 10 posters here have no forking idea about Pakistan. The other lonely 1 person keeps quiet out of humility.


The exception to this rule?

People who visit Pakistan and see the land and the people themselves. Suddenly their prejudices are replaced with wonderment. A poor Pakistan suddenly get replaced with strong and fashionable and progressive and yet humble Pakistan. .

Just read essays of ordinary Bharatis who have made a visit or two to Pakistan.

Advani Ji types changed 180 degrees for the better immediately after a visit to Pakistan.

So bhai jaan,

The isolation you talk about has already happened for majority of Bharatis. This is why there is so much ignorance there about Pakistan.

Sorry to see

 

[Darth Vader]

Well For me these Suggestions come in mind
1 Pakistan Conquers india or Vice Versa In the end The conqueror will get all the area ,
2 Peace Full referendum Let Kashmiris Decide them self a sane Option if they want to be with Pakistan , India or they want a independent state , i dont know why India is so worried about it
3 Pakistan and India turn LoC into IB but wont think this will solve problem
4 Both Countries Leave their area and make it as a independent state , Or Somehow Kashmiris with some movement take back the whole area

 

[Solomon2]

Oh brother Solomon. Brother Brother braaaather. Please do not repeat 5th grade government village school history books here.

What, you think I'm an Indian or from India?!?!

1965 was the outcome of series of events and not just an event by itself. if you want to know what was going on back then, do some study. Read a bit of resolutions passed in India's national and provincial parliament. Nehru's policies, water issues, border skirmishes, and on and on.

I will do as you suggest.

 

[Kaniska]

I am not sure why do you think that today's India is not accepting Pakistan as a reality...I think this is again a gap in perception to both of us...I agree that 9/10 are against Pakistan....But they are not against Pakistan because of Pakistan is a reality rather of different reason that you are thinking of....For me, my complain about Pakistan about interference in my country....not anything else. If you ask any Indian member, do you think any one is now interested to take Pakistan back to India??? This is a craziest idea if any Indian have ever thought of....

So in a nutshell, if Pakistan and India just hands off each other, it is better...Again, i do not agree with your concept that we do not want a reality of Pakistan...Please once for all , you should stop thinking this kind of reasoning as the reason of India and Pakistan animosity....Rather, i feel, Mr Jinah done a favor to us by separating Pakistan and Muslims from India, otherwise, it will be a difficult situation to deal with 40% muslims in India.....So i rather suggest to change our modern Indian history to give due to respect to Mr Jinah for creation of Pakistan which is long desired but no one has ever tried of....

This is precisely what has happened since 1947.

Bharatis never imagined that modern day Pakistan will survive through 1950.

When we did, guess what, Bharati gov tried every thing in their power to demolish the very idea of Pakistan through active and passive agressiveness.

They wanted to isolate Bahrat from Pakistan. And guess what, we now have generation of Bharatis (even on this forum) who are totally and wholly ignorant nay ignoramouses of the highest order.

9 out of 10 posters here have no forking idea about Pakistan. The other lonely 1 person keeps quiet out of humility.


The exception to this rule?

People who visit Pakistan and see the land and the people themselves. Suddenly their prejudices are replaced with wonderment. A poor Pakistan suddenly get replaced with strong and fashionable and progressive and yet humble Pakistan. .

Just read essays of ordinary Bharatis who have made a visit or two to Pakistan.

Advani Ji types changed 180 degrees for the better immediately after a visit to Pakistan.

So bhai jaan,

The isolation you talk about has already happened for majority of Bharatis. This is why there is so much ignorance there about Pakistan.

Sorry to see

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Solomon2

I hold President Ayub Khan with deep respect. In fact Pakistan might not be here was it not for Ayub Khan. Most of the "physical frame" of Pakistan was built or intiated under him. He rightly built a strong alliance with US.

Now let us not get sentimental about this. US was in to extract the maximum for itself and so was Pakistan. That is how relations are (mostly ) between countries.

The biggest, the biggest *bleep* *bleep* mistake Ayub Khan made in his presidency was he *bleep* did not attack India in 1962 when Red China gave a thrashing to the Indian's.

One inescapable ugly fact has faced every Pakistani leader. When it comes to making babies the Indian's are far, far ahead of us. India and China are almost 1.3 billion nations. We are 6-7 times smaller. This disparity is approaching Irish/English ratio.

So when one big bully attacked another big bully why the *bleep* did Pakistan not jump in. Kashmir would have been ours in 48 hours. Why did Pakistan not use the golden oppurtunty presented like Isreal used the Anglo-French invasion of Suez to settle scores with Eygpt.

WE can only guess. My opinion from the reading I have done is Ayub Khan was Sandhurst educated British era officer. Like a soldier he put too much on things like "honour" and "giving words". I read a book by British diplomat Morrice Jones who was posted in Pakistan at the time. I understand that the British got his promise not to get involved and he bloody kept that promise.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I am not sure why do you think that today's India is not accepting Pakistan as a reality...I think this is again a gap in perception to both of us...I agree that 9/10 are against Pakistan....But they are not against Pakistan because of Pakistan is a reality rather of different reason that you are thinking of....For me, my complain about Pakistan about interference in my country....not anything else. If you ask any Indian member, do you think any one is now interested to take Pakistan back to India??? This is a craziest idea if any Indian have ever thought of....

So in a nutshell, if Pakistan and India just hands off each other, it is better...Again, i do not agree with your concept that we do not want a reality of Pakistan...Please once for all , you should stop thinking this kind of reasoning as the reason of India and Pakistan animosity....Rather, i feel, Mr Jinah done a favor to us by separating Pakistan and Muslims from India, otherwise, it will be a difficult situation to deal with 40% muslims in India.....So i rather suggest to change our modern Indian history to give due to respect to Mr Jinah for creation of Pakistan which is long desired but no one has ever tried of....

Kaniska Bhai

I read your first paragraph, and I wanted to send you sweets and high fives.

Then whamo!

you wrote one of the most ignorant piece about history,

Oh bhai jaan

This is the clear indication of the hatred at the heart of Bharati nationalists. They were fed lies about Pakistan and thus they continue harboring hatred towards Pakistani Muslims So sorry to see,

 

[Indus Pakistan]

One thing for sure. The US Pakistan alliance is dead. It is over. I am still mentally stuck in the status quo that has existed from almost 1950. I have always had soft spot for USA.

But the reality is and I can hear Machiavelli screaming it is over. The winds of change have aligned Pakistan with just one ally. China. So better learn Mandarin. I am not joking here. Nawaz Sharif came up with this idea and first when I heard it I though is that guy crazy? But now I can see the sense in that.

Because of my pro US tilt I have been slow on this tectonic shift. Over the last decade I have noticed how US has gotten closer and closer to India. I even notice the change with Americans. I am member of couple of American discussion websites and increasingly I have noticed there the Indian and American sing the same song.

In fact you dare not say anything critical of India. The American's jump in her defence. I suppose this reflects th change.

Ps. I need to have chat to my Iranian buddies about this actually.

 

[Kaniska]

Kaniska Bhai

I read your first paragraph, and I wanted to send you sweets and high fives.

Then whamo!

you wrote one of the most ignorant piece about history,

Oh bhai jaan

This is the clear indication of the hatred at the heart of Bharati nationalists. They were fed lies about Pakistan and thus they continue harboring hatred towards Pakistani Muslims So sorry to see,

I am sorry man....where does i have a hatred for Pakistan people here?? dear friend...actually i compliment Pakistan becomes reality,,,My perception is not based on Histroy..rather the reality what is happening now..

 

[Indus Pakistan]

And to the Indian's stop trying to slice Pakistan into army, the peope or the elected government. As far as you guys are concerned we are all one. The army that you guys love to think operates as a separate force has almost total support within Pakistan.

 

[Kaniska]

And to the Indian's stop trying to slice Pakistan into army, the peope or the elected government. As far as you guys are concerned we are all one. The army that you guys love to think operates as a separate force has almost total support within Pakistan.

Just looks at the daily news channel discussion in Pakistan...They always categorize,,,Gov, Judiociary and Army who operate for their own interests...So stop blaming Indian for own failures...If Indian think incorrectly, we will pay the price for it...Why are you worried about it??? Just follow the video in youtube for Geo and other news outlet which always discuss how Army and Gov is always out of sync...And agian, you have butches up history where Army kills and takes over elected Government...So to whom you are fooling about....

One thing for sure. The US Pakistan alliance is dead. It is over. I am still mantally stuck in the status quo that has existed from almost 1950. I have always had soft spot for USA.

But the reality is and I can hear Machiavelli screaming it is over. The winds of change have aligned Pakistan with just one ally. China. So better learn Mandarin. I am not joking here. Nawaz Sharif came up with this idea and first when I heard it I though is that guy crazy? But now I can see the sense in that.

Because of my pro US tilt I have been slow on this tectonic shift. Over the last decade I have noticed how US has gotten closer and closer to India. I even notice the change with Americans. I am member of couple of American discussion websites and increasingly I have noticed there the Indian and American sing the same song.

In fact you dare not say anything critical of India. The American's jump in her defence. I suppose this reflects th change.

US does not love any one...At present, India and US interest allign with each other to some extent, so US likes to assist India,...Earlier Pakistan and US interests are aligned so you guys are partners...And again, Indian economy is a attraction for US ....If Pakistan focus on developing their own economy, the Pakistan can again be a partner of West too..Its nothing special in it..