AMCA: Stalled

[Iggy]

@Oscar, what about our point defense yaar?? Mig is nearing her retirement and we need a fighter to replace it.. We cant go for another selection from International market because of the time delay.. IAF and MOD guys are thinking about it and went for LCA..

 

[MilSpec]

HAL has a problem when it comes to prioritizing things. Even if you tell them to stop LCA and concentrate
all their resources on AMCA, they'll find out soon enough that there is nothing to develop. They don't
really know anything about 5th gen aircraft.

Whoaaa Boy!!! Hold your horses there, I am not sure if you are aware of HAL's testing facilities, they are a very professional organisation that you are making sound like bunch of people playing donkey kong. HAL has been testing key technologies from it's own budget, higly classified stuff since ADA was non-existent.

What they have hands-on experience in developing so far is the LCA which is 4th generation, 4.5 gen at
most, if you include Mk-2. If they start building AMCA now, what they will implement in AMCA is tech
from Tejas. So when AMCA is completed, it will be a 4th generation aircraft in a stealthy airframe. That's
not being a 5th generation fighter.

Make up your mind, are you talking about HAL or ADA, two different organisations here, HAL has hands on experience in manufacturing and developing the key technologies for all existing IAF platforms. ADA on the other hand has the experience of making the lCA mk1 prototypes in HAL production hangars.

If HAL is to gain any knowledge regarding the way 5th generation fighters are made, worked & developed,
they will have to work through the joint development and production of Sukhoi/HAL FGFA, so it will only
be after 2020 that HAL can think of using the experience they have gained by working alongside the
Russians, to build a 5th generation plane indigenously, keeping in mind IAF requirements of post-2020 period.

I do agree to your premise but I do take offense to the demeanor where you make sound HAL like they have no clue of what they are doing.

So now it's evident that developing AMCA before 2020 will be a futile waste of time, money & resources,
is it advisable to sit tight and eat your own fingernails? OR, concentrate your efforts on something IAF
currently wants??

To that point it would also be advisable for IAF Staff HQ to stop behaving like a 15 yr old girl who wants a new wardrobe every couple of years just because it wants gucci and prada!

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar, what about our point defense yaar?? Mig is nearing her retirement and we need a fighter to replace it.. We cant go for another selection from International market because of the time delay.. IAF and MOD guys are thinking about it and went for LCA..

The world has moved on from point defense interceptors.. are you guys broke like Pakistan to persist with them out of sheer bankruptcy? Most forces are moving onto stand off weapons against heavily defended targets.

The SAM market is open.. the Akash.. the SPYDER.. they all can take care of the ground element. Any other point defense can be taken care of by existing assets very well and almost as cost effective as the Tejas might. Where the Tejas may have much better use is with handling the smaller neighbors of India and providing a low cost war fighting alternative where its effectiveness will be virtually unchallenged.
Where I do think the Tejas should be pushed if it really has to be.. is in the IN..

. ADA on the other hand has the experience of making the lCA mk1 prototypes in HAL production hangars.

Thanks for clearing that confusion up for me as well. It was quite perplexing that HAL who produce the MKI and other airframes quite well end up FUBARing the Tejas.

 

[Gessler]

Whoaaa Boy!!! Hold your horses there, I am not sure if you are aware of HAL's testing facilities, they are a very professional organisation that you are making sound like bunch of people playing donkey kong. HAL has been testing key technologies from it's own budget, higly classified stuff since ADA was non-existent.

My horses are firmly under my control Sandy ji. HAL sure can do a lot, BUT it needs to prioritize they're
projects and spend accordingly. Otherwise, they will be working on projects ranging from turboprop trainers
to stealth bombers, but will fail to deliver anything on time.

Make up your mind, are you talking about HAL or ADA, two different organisations here, HAL has hands on experience in manufacturing and developing the key technologies for all existing IAF platforms. ADA on the other hand has the experience of making the lCA mk1 prototypes in HAL production hangars.

I'm talking about both, and including DRDO. There cannot be any Indian fighter effort without involving
all 3 of these state-run agencies. And all of them have a problem prioritizing - an example is HAL calling
tenders for HTT-40 turboprop trainers whereas it was clear that IAF is not showing interest in anything
except PC-7 Mk.2 in this role. Instead of cancelling all development related to HTT-40 the moment IAF
called for international options, they went on wasting time & resources on calling new tenders for
procuring engines for the HTT-40.

Who's requirement do they expect to fulfill with it?

I do agree to your premise but I do take offense to the demeanor where you make sound HAL like they have no clue of what they are doing.

They have their pros and cons, just like everyone else. Seeing that everyone in the thread is
praising their pros, I choose to go picking on their cons. But you cannot escape the fact that
these state-run PSUs are national symbols of mismanagement.

To that point it would also be advisable for IAF Staff HQ to stop behaving like a 15 yr old girl who wants a new wardrobe every couple of years just because it wants gucci and prada!

What the IAF specified for LCA can be met, provided the PSUs prioritize their work, and concentrate on one thing before going onto the other. That is something that very big companies like Lockheed Martin should be doing - pursuing multiple fighter projects at a single time. But even LM and Boeing are not trying to do what HAL/ADA are planning on doing - waste money on developing a plane that IAF never asked for.

The world has moved on from point defense interceptors.. are you guys broke like Pakistan to persist with them out of sheer bankruptcy? Most forces are moving onto stand off weapons against heavily defended targets.

The SAM market is open.. the Akash.. the SPYDER.. they all can take care of the ground element. Any other point defense can be taken care of by existing assets very well and almost as cost effective as the Tejas might. Where the Tejas may have much better use is with handling the smaller neighbors of India and providing a low cost war fighting alternative where its effectiveness will be virtually unchallenged.
Where I do think the Tejas should be pushed if it really has to be.. is in the IN..

The Tejas Mk.1 cannot do much except replace MiG-21 and provide IAF with a better BVR fighter than
the Fishbed.

But Mk-2 has a good future in both IAF and IN.

 

[Brahmos_2]

Then I Must Say You Dont Know What Tejas Is.

I have a very Simple Question Can Your Scientists/Defence Labs Deliver - Made-In-Pakistan :

> Fly By Wire
> EW Suite
> Carbon Composites
> Doppler Radar
> BVR Missile
> Even a Low Performing Jet Engine
> Mission Computers

If No. Then Why Make Unnecessary Noise ?

( Dont Bring in JF17 here .. We have Done Much better Things Like Marut , MKI and Migs , if you know wht i mean )

LCA is a 100% Success.

Nice reply buddy

love those highlighted part....

 

[ice bomb]

Wrong!!

The LCA design was finalised in 1990,Phase 1 (design, development and testing of TDs ) started in 1990 and HAL started work on the technology demonstrators in mid-1991 and full scale funding was authorised only in 1993

LCA Tejas - History: Timeline

1983
DRDO got permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft.
1984
Government of India set up Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) as the nodal agency developing the LCA and managing the program
1985
IAF generated Air Staff Requirements (ASR) for LCA in October 1985.
1986
Government allocated Rs. 575 Crores for the LCA programme.
Programme to develop an indigenous power plant (engine)- Kaveri was launched at GTRE.

 

[gslv mk3]

LCA Tejas - History: Timeline

1983
DRDO got permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft.
1984
Government of India set up Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) as the nodal agency developing the LCA and managing the program
1985
IAF generated Air Staff Requirements (ASR) for LCA in October 1985.
1986
Government allocated Rs. 575 Crores for the LCA programme.
Programme to develop an indigenous power plant (engine)- Kaveri was launched at GTRE.

From the same link

1987
Project definition commenced in October 1987 with French aircraft major Dassault Aviation as consultants.
1988
Project definition phase completed in September 1988.
1989
Government review committee expressed confidence in LCA programme. It was decided that the programme will be implemented in two phases.
1990 - 1999
1990
Design of LCA was completed as a tail-less compound delta winged relaxed static stability aircraft.
Phase 1 (Technology Demonstrator) of the development was commenced to create the proof of concept.

1993

Full funding approved from April 1993 and development work for phase 1 started in June.

Atleast read links before posting.

 

[MilSpec]

I'm talking about both, and including DRDO. There cannot be any Indian fighter effort without involving
all 3 of these state-run agencies. And all of them have a problem prioritizing - an example is HAL calling
tenders for HTT-40 turboprop trainers whereas it was clear that IAF is not showing interest in anything
except PC-7 Mk.2 in this role. Instead of cancelling all development related to HTT-40 the moment IAF
called for international options, they went on wasting time & resources on calling new tenders for
procuring engines for the HTT-40.

Who's requirement do they expect to fulfill with it?

They have their pros and cons, just like everyone else. Seeing that everyone in the thread is
praising their pros, I choose to go picking on their cons. But you cannot escape the fact that
these state-run PSUs are national symbols of mismanagement.



What the IAF specified for LCA can be met, provided the PSUs prioritize their work, and concentrate on one thing before going onto the other. That is something that very big companies like Lockheed Martin should be doing - pursuing multiple fighter projects at a single time. But even LM and Boeing are not trying to do what HAL/ADA are planning on doing - waste money on developing a plane that IAF never asked for.



The Tejas Mk.1 cannot do much except replace MiG-21 and provide IAF with a better BVR fighter than
the Fishbed.

But Mk-2 has a good future in both IAF and IN.

Interesting, but you cannot club HAL and ADA together, they are not similar, thier working are not similar, thier staff is not common thier funding is not similar. Hence you cannot blame HAL for ADA's misgivings and vice versa.


Next ADA/DRDO is not PSU, HAL is, so please seperate your apples from oranges. HAL's project undertaking/ Annual Operational Plan is not decided by HAL's management alone but also by planning commission comprising of MoD and Air force.

HTT 40 is a plane very much mandated by IAF, I know this because I was there in HAL when this happened. HAL does not propose aircrafts out of it's magic hat, delay for this project was again by your dear Air force staff headquarters general requirements. And when you do ponder over this, give a shot at explaining why every other day allegations of kickbacks are associated with import maal, you might get an idea why Air force staff hq delays it's requirements and blames it on HAL and other agencies.

"Tejas MK2 will provide better BVR than mig21" I seriously suggest befriend a pilot and talk about this stuff, you will know how far ahead is the mk1 of all functionalities of the mig 21 from pilot ease, serviceability, flight envelope, agility, dog fighting, BVR, ground attack, low level flight envelope, strike missions etc.

 

[ice bomb]

From the same link


Atleast read links before posting.

At least read links before posting. The project started in 83 when DRDO got permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft.
Government allocated Rs. 575 Crores for the LCA programme in 86.
The design was completed in 90. Are you saying the project started in 93?

Quote Originally Posted by nomi007 View Post
indian start work on tejas almost in 1980

 

[gslv mk3]

At least read links before posting. The project started in 83 when DRDO got permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft.
Government allocated Rs. 575 Crores for the LCA programme in 86.
The design was completed in 90. Are you saying the project started in 93?

I am not talking about talks and discussions on ASR requirements,technological collabrations and things like that.IAF did only generate ASR in 1985.

I am talking about design and development,Project definition completed in 1988,Design was LCA was completed and metal cutting started only in 1990,and full scale funding did not came till 1993,I guess you get this.

 

[Gessler]

HTT 40 is a plane very much mandated by IAF, I know this because I was there in HAL when this happened. HAL does not propose aircrafts out of it's magic hat, delay for this project was again by your dear Air force staff headquarters general requirements. And when you do ponder over this, give a shot at explaining why every other day allegations of kickbacks are associated with import maal, you might get an idea why Air force staff hq delays it's requirements and blames it on HAL and other agencies.

Okay...now that IAF has begun taking deliveries of PC-7A Mk.II, what possible role could HTT-40 fulfill?

Also, it must be remembered that out of the 2 programmes currently running for an LUH/RSH, one
indigenous program by HAL, and one tender for foreign procurement, only 1 will be taken. If we
buy from abroad, it will be pointless to develop HAL LUH, but if IAF favours HAL's offering (which
seems to be the case), the foreign tender will be called off.

Similarly, there is not any current requirement (or future projected requirement; as yet) for AMCA
now that FGFA is on track.

Priority instead needs to be given to Tejas Mk-1/2 for which IAF was asking for since many years.

What this decision says is that HAL shouldn't pay attention to AMCA and concentrate their entire
resources in fighter-development sector for LCA until the time comes when AMCA will truly have
a genuine role to fulfill in IAF - then HAL/ADA/DRDO can continue their work on AMCA - by
then they would have learnt a lot from Rafale, Tejas, PAK-FA and therefore can deliver AMCA
more proficiently.

"Tejas MK2 will provide better BVR than mig21" I seriously suggest befriend a pilot and talk about this stuff, you will know how far ahead is the mk1 of all functionalities of the mig 21 from pilot ease, serviceability, flight envelope, agility, dog fighting, BVR, ground attack, low level flight envelope, strike missions etc.

I'm not talking about Mk-2 Tejas, but about Mk-1.

I've already said Mk-2 will have a good future in both IAF and IN.

The problem with Mk-1 is that it won't be produced in large enough quantities.

 

[Bobby]

Thank you for the news.

no good news for you .....dont forget PAK-FA/FGFA on the way...

 

[ice bomb]

I am not talking about talks and discussions on ASR requirements,technological collabrations and things like that.IAF did only generate ASR in 1985.

I am talking about design and development,Project definition completed in 1988,Design was LCA was completed and metal cutting started only in 1990,and full scale funding did not came till 1993,I guess you get this.

This is the original comment:

Quote Originally Posted by nomi007 View Post
indian start work on tejas almost in 1980[/QUOTE]

Therefore the question is when did India started work on Tejas. Now what part of that statement mentioned full scale founding?
Read that sentence a couple times till you get it.

 

[Gessler]

no good news for you .....dont forget PAK-FA/FGFA on the way...

Doesn't make a difference I guess.

Even if there is a news that India has temporarily stopped thinking about star wars-like weapons and
hi-tech super lasers for a while, they will be totally relieved.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

no good news for you .....dont forget PAK-FA/FGFA on the way...

1 post and 10 replies.. you people are ... !