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China Tastes RAW Deal In Tibet

You talk about "cutting" my country into pieces based on an article that in all likelihood is not credible, and then follow it up be preaching the dos and don'ts of serious internet debates? Giving into the benefit of doubt, here is my response.

As far as culture is concerned, Assamese have their own. So do Gujaratis, Sindhis, Marathis, Punjabis, Tamils, and so on and so forth. But they do have something in common—a belief in India as a nation.

As far as Sikhs are concerned, I’m yet to come across a Sikh who believes in separation from India. And I’ve traveled immensely in Punjab. Honestly, I haven't heard the BJP say anything like that; I've also not heard any "reaction." By the way, Punjab is one of the richest states of India.

I would have given a more detailed reply, but I'll be repeating what Salim has said.

There we go again, Denial followed by off topic comments. You didnt have much to say apart from that, so I dont know what I will be replying to.

Your Assam and Sikh problems are not a secret by any means. They are there, and if you are going to deny them, then whats the point?

I could help your cause and ruin this thread with off topic comments and pointlessly denying everything, but really this is the Internet, there is no point being so extremely defensive about every subject because it really wont change much. We could learn something here, or we could watch Fox news.
 
There we go again, Denial followed by off topic comments. You didnt have much to say apart from that, so I dont know what I will be replying to.

Your Assam and Sikh problems are not a secret by any means. They are there, and if you are going to deny them, then whats the point?

I could help your cause and ruin this thread with off topic comments and pointlessly denying everything, but really this is the Internet, there is no point being so extremely defensive about every subject because it really wont change much. We could learn something here, or we could watch Fox news.

So if I say the truth, is it denial? Just because "my truth" is something that you find "unbelievable," does it implies that I’m in denial?

And when did I proclaim that we don't have any problems with Assam? ULFA is a menace in the region. But your presumption that a little retaliation is all that is required to separate Assam is wrong. I’ve interacted with Assamese, and most of them find it offensive if I doubt their "Indianness." That is what I said.

With regard to Sikhs, I never said that there has never been a Khalistan movement. But my personal interactions with almost all the Sikhs that I’ve met have led me to conclude that they do not believe in separation from India.
 
So if I say the truth, is it denial? Just because "my truth" is something that you find "unbelievable," does it implies that I’m in denial?

And when did I proclaim that we don't have any problems with Assam? ULFA is a menace in the region. But your presumption that a little retaliation is all that is required to separate Assam is wrong. I’ve interacted with Assamese, and most of them find it offensive if I doubt their "Indianness." That is what I said.

With regard to Sikhs, I never said that there has never been a Khalistan movement. But my personal interactions with almost all the Sikhs that I’ve met have led me to conclude that they do not believe in separation from India.

You seem to have interacted with a lot of people. just saying.

But yea, I want to move to the next stage and discuss the issues rather than persuading you to stop denying something which is well known around here.
 
You seem to have interacted with a lot of people. just saying.

But yea, I want to move to the next stage and discuss the issues rather than persuading you to stop denying something which is well known around here.

Again, all I said was my personal observation. If you think this is "denial," feel free to.

Secondly, from my perspective, you think the issue of "Khalistan" is huge, I think so not.
 
While what stated in the article probably needs to be further tested, it is true that India did helped Tibetan riot of 1959 as supported by many evidences.

I would guess PRC government is on the verge of putting TYC on to terrorist list, should further evidence of TYC activities support what the government suspects. Will RAW precipitate the process?
 
1.3 billion people (even the homeless people) donated money and blood to Sichuan provinces especially those little towns that suffered alot during the quake.

And there are huge numbers of 西藏(tibet) people living there. Guess what, we people are even more united than before.

We dont hate tibet at all, but we hate the traitor of our mother land who supported by the devil west
 
Indeed, all love a golden goose.

But the issue is does the Golden Goose love you?

China's Ethnic Tension Isn't Limited to Tibet
Published 04/9/2008 | Featured Articles and Highlights

The Wall Street Journal
By GORDON FAIRCLOUGH
April 5, 2008; Page A5

This outpost of the Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps is home to nearly 20,000 ethnic Han Chinese, transplanted from China's eastern heartland to this arid border territory -- which is home to a large Turkic Muslim population.

Such settlements, combined with large infrastructure investments and, at times, heavy-handed measures to silence dissent, were supposed to cement government authority in Xinjiang. But a new protest by Turkic Uighurs and continued unrest in Tibetan areas illustrate the limitations of Beijing's approach to dealing with minorities.

Roughly 2.3 million Han Chinese, China's dominant ethnic group, now live in settlements set up by the Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps, an outgrowth of the People's Liberation Army forces that occupied Xinjiang in 1949. The Corps has built highways, railroads, power plants and universities.

Coupled with this drive for economic advancement is a second function: security. The Corps says its plays "an irreplaceable, special role" in "cracking down" on separatists. Members can function as an armed militia to work side-by-side with the army and police forces.

"The battle against ethnic separatism and invasion has never stopped," Zhao Guangyong, the Corps' vice secretary general, said in an interview. The Corps plays a "very important role in promoting national unity."

The Corps' dual duties reflect the central government's general approach toward ethnic-minority groups: Try to win them over with economic growth, while stamping out opposition to Beijing. In Xinjiang, that has meant restricting both religious freedoms and civil rights.

"It's a very volatile situation," says Nicholas Bequelin, a China researcher for Human Rights Watch, a New York-based advocacy group. "People feel their cultural identity is being threatened."

As China this past week sought to contain unrest in Tibetan areas following violent riots in Lhasa on March 14, it acknowledged for the first time that a protest had also taken place in Xinjiang.

On March 23 demonstrators in a market in the southern Xinjiang city of Hotan unfurled banners and handed out fliers urging their fellow Uighurs (pronounced WEE-gers) to join an independence movement, the government there says. Police moved quickly to silence what authorities described in a statement issued Tuesday as "a small group" of Uighurs trying to "trick the masses into an uprising."

Fu Chao, an official with the Hotan district administration, said the Uighur protesters had been inspired by events in Tibet and that they were calling for the creation of an independent Islamic state in Xinjiang.

Security in Xinjiang has been stepped up. Uighur activists say that as soon as protests started in Tibet, China began detaining suspected Uighur dissidents in an effort to prevent unrest from spreading to Xinjiang, which shares a long border with Tibet.

Tensions had already been building. Chinese officials say they arrested a Uighur woman last month who was part of a failed Muslim separatist plot to hijack a Chinese jetliner. In February, Chinese police also raided what they said was a meeting of Islamic terrorists and shot and killed two men and arrested 15 others near Xinjiang's capital, Urumqi.

China's state-controlled Xinhua News Agency reported Friday that fresh protests occured Thursday night in a Tibetan area of the southwestern province of Sichuan. Xinhua said one government official was injured in the unrest.

The International Campaign for Tibet on Friday released its own account of the incident, saying at least eight people were killed on Thursday in western Sichuan province after armed police fired on a crowd of several hundred monks and local residents. The protests took place outside the Tongkor monastery 60 kilometers from Ganzi town, the pro-Tibet organization said in a statement.

The statement said Chinese officials who were inspecting the monastery threw pictures of the Dalai Lama and told monks to denounce the spiritual leaders, who has been living as an exile in India since 1959. The monks objected and skirmishes broke out, the statement said.

When contacted, local government officials and residents declined or were unable to confirm details of the unrest..

Xinjiang is strategically critical for China. It accounts for a sixth of China's territory, and is an important oil-producing region and home to China's nuclear-weapons test sites. It also has more than 5,600 kilometers (3,480 miles) of borders with eight neighboring states.

The cause of Uighur human rights has drawn far less international attention than that of Tibetans. Tibet activists have gained a global following thanks in part to backing by celebrities and the charisma of the Dalai Lama, Tibetan Buddhists' exiled spiritual leader. Another factor, Uighur human-rights advocates say: Uighurs are predominantly Muslim. Since the September 11, 2001, terror attacks in the U.S., China has sought to portray its battle against Uighur-rights campaigners as a fight against Islamic terrorism.

Now, the Tibetan protests and the pending Beijing Olympics, which are set to begin in August, are spurring Uighurs abroad to speak out -- and to explicitly link their aspirations to those of Tibetans. Thursday, hundreds of Uighur demonstrators gathered in Istanbul for an anti-China protest during the Olympic torch relay passed through the city.

"Tibetans and Uighurs both want to live in peace and freedom," says Rebiya Kadeer, president of the Uyghur American Association, a Washington-based advocacy group. "Both people should have the right to self-determination."

Ms. Kadeer, who was jailed by China for more than five years and now lives in exile in the U.S., says "power and prosperity" have been reserved for Chinese settlers in Xinjiang and Tibet, "while Uighurs and Tibetans have been pushed into poverty."

Xinjiang, which lies astride the ancient Silk Road trading corridor between east and west, has a long and complicated history of shifting peoples, rulers and religions. China's Qing dynasty annexed the area in the 1700s. During turmoil in China in the first half of the twentieth century, Uighurs and members of other ethnic groups twice declared an independent republic, known as East Turkestan. Then in 1949, Chinese Communist forces moved in.

Since then, many ethnic Han people have moved to Xinjiang seeking a better life. Roughly 30% of the Han people of Xinjiang live in areas administered by the Corps. In total, the Han population of Xinjiang grew by more than 600,000 between 2000 and 2006, according to the government.

The Han Chinese of the Corps, many of them descendents of Chinese soldiers ordered to settle the region, see themselves as heroic pioneers, battling an unforgiving environment and often hostile natives to bring civilization to their county's frontier. "It's just like the American West," says Zhu Yun, the top political officer of Unit 150, looking out past newly plowed fields as a cold wind blew in from the desert.

To many Uighurs, Han immigrants are viewed as alien interlopers taking their land, competing for resources and threatening to overwhelm their traditional culture.

Amid the sands of the Junggar Basin here, Unit 150's settlers have carved out thousands of acres of irrigated farmlands, where they grow cotton, grapes and wheat. They have built schools, a hospital and even a television station.

Down the road, the Corps has built its biggest installation, a city of 650,000 people, called Shihezi. Many have prospered. On the Shihezi's outskirts, Lu Liping and his wife, Zhao Yanli, toil on a 1.5-acre plot of land that they enrich with soil carried from a nearby river bank. This year, they are growing grapes, peanuts and cabbage.

Mr. Lu's father came to Xinjiang as a soldier in the People's Liberation Army and stayed on as a rancher on a collective farm. As a boy, Mr. Lu lived in a primitive earthen walled house. "You can see how I live now," he says, pointing to his yellow-painted home with tile floors.

Mr. Lu has done well enough to send his son to university in the east-coast city of Tianjin. His daughter works in a beauty salon in the provincial capital, Urumqi. His work, he says, "is important and good for the country."

Much of the Corps' activity is large scale. It grows 50% of the cotton and 70% of the tomato paste produced in the territory. It publishes 17 newspapers and runs radio and TV stations. It has about 1,400 commercial enterprises, including construction and transportation business, and is parent to 13 publicly traded companies. Annual output last year totaled about $6.2 billion, the Corps says.

Mr. Zhao from the Corps says it is "a very important support for the people Xinjiang" and that the Han Chinese who have migrated westward to join the Corps have brought with them "advanced technology and modern ideas" to Xinjiang.

Most Uighurs are happy that overall economic growth in Xinjiang has been strong. But some say the Uighur community has received few direct benefits from Corps work or from Han Chinese-run businesses.

"Uighurs are not of one mind about this," says Dru C. Gladney, a professor at Pomona College in Claremont, Calif., who studies Xinjiang. Some urban Uighurs, especially those engaged in trading, have seen significant benefits. Mr. Gladney also says many economic issues cut across ethnic lines. He says, for example, that Uighurs and long-term Han residents often share resentment toward new migrants.

Another source of friction is government restrictions on religious practice. Uighurs who work for the government or attend government schools are largely barred from attending services in mosques, Uighurs and human-rights groups say. The government also prohibits Uighurs from undertaking the pilgrimage to Mecca except as part of government-supervised groups.

Distrust continues between Uighurs and Han Chinese. One Uighur man working in Shanghai, when asked how Uighurs feel about government policy, said: "I can't tell you the truth. It would be illegal."
China's Ethnic Tension Isn't Limited to Tibet
 
Xinjiang has been a part of China since ancient times. The Chinese, Han and other ethnics, have been settling there and sacrificing their lives to protect and build the land since ancient time.

If RAW dares play a dirty game in Xinjiang, its nasty hand will be chopped off in no time!
 
Xinjiang has been a part of China since ancient times. Chinese, Han and other ethnics, have been settling there and sacrificing their lives to protect and build the land since ancient time.

If RAW dares play a dirty game in Xinjiang, its nasty hand will be chopped off in no time!

Oh wow!!

Trembling like an aspen leaf!

Here is a blog

Is Xinjiang the Next Tibet?

By Nicholas D. Kristof

Anti-Beijing protests have erupted in the Xinjiang region in the far West of China, home to Uighurs and other Muslims of ethnic Turkish origin. Reports are sketchy, but the protesters in the town of Khotan may have been seeking independence from China.

So as long as we have a number of folks with an interest in China looking at this blog, let me pose the question: Is Xinjiang the next Tibet? In short, will the prospect of the upcoming Olympics encourage Uighurs to protest because they think they have leverage in the run-up to the Olympics, in the same way that Tibetans have?

Northern Xinjiang seems fairly calm, but southern Xinjiang is full of antagonism toward Beijing and Han Chinese. I felt the same mood in Kashgar as I felt in Lhasa — resentment at Han migrants and at a lack of religious and political freedom. And economic development tends to mean more migrants and thus more resentment.

This seems to have been one demonstration with only 500 people, and it apparently was suppressed quickly. And maybe Uighurs are too scared to organize protests. But my hunch is that if they sense an opportunity and if they believe they can get away with it (perhaps because security forces are restraining themselves in the run-up to the Olympics), they’ll take to the streets. And these days, cell phones and email allow organizers to communicate much more effectively than they could in the past, and any photos of soldiers beating protesters will reach the international media within hours. Xinjiang has never received nearly the attention of Tibet, but if I were Hu Jintao I’d be very nervous about the situation in Kashgar, Khotan and the towns of southern Xinjiang.

What do you think? Anybody in Xinjiang out there?
Is Xinjiang the Next Tibet? - Nicholas D. Kristof - Opinion - New York Times Blog

Yes, Mr. Kristof, East Turkestan (or Xinjiang in Chinese) is next Tibet. I think Hu Jintao is indeed quite nervous about the situation in Kashgar and Hotan as well. That is why there is an increased security presence. A curfew has been imposed since March 11th, one day after Lhasa protest. Uyghur are not too scared to act but China will immediately label any kind peaceful Uyghur protest as an act of “terrorism.” Since 9/11, China has been cashing on Western fear of Islamic terrorism by depicting the Uyghur people’s legitimate demands and peaceful protests “terrorist.” Unfortunately, some people in the West believe and some media even quote straight from Chinese sources that kind of propaganda.

In fact, both Tibetans and Uyghurs suffer under the same authoritarian rulers in Beijing. The only difference is their religion - Tibetans believe in Buddhism, Uyghurs believe in Islam. Their goal is the same. Therefore, the international community should look at the suffering of Tibetans and Uyghurs in the same, instead of believing Chinese propaganda. They should be extremely cautious about Chinese claims of Uyghur “terrorism.” So far, China has failed to provide credible evidence.

In the past, China labeled Uyghurs “terrorist,” and even named Uyghur democratic leader Ms. Rebiya Kadeer “terrorist.” Now, we see China is accusing the Dalai Lama His Holiness “terrorist,” and Tibetans who will protest Beijing Olympics “suicide bombers” without any evidence.

Although China has done well in the past two decades economically. It is political system has never changed. Many people in West are impressed by the breathtaking development in China’s east coast cities and then believe that China is a different China. However, the Chinese leaders mentality is the same like the founder of the People’s Republic - Mao Zedong. They still believe “power comes out of the barrel of the gun,” not by chanting slogans like “We shall overcome,” or “Free Tibet” and “Free East Turkestan.” So a regime like that shamelessly calls a peaceful Tibetan monk and Uyghur grandmother “terrorist.” A regimes that came to power through the barrel of the gun does not recognize any moral authority but only brute force. That is why it miserably fails to understand and resolve the problems in Tibet and East Turkestan.
 
Oh wow!!

Trembling like an aspen leaf!

As the evils normally do before justice.

Here is a blog


Here is a reply to your blog by a Xinjiang-ner.

3.April 2nd,
2008
2:23 pm I’m not “in” Xinjiang at this moment. I was born in Urumqi, Xinjiang and spent the first 18 years of my life there. I’m going back to visit my families and friends in a month.

First of all, I guess Xinjiang is always on the mind of Beijing. CIA and former KGB had finger prints all over that place. Not to mention ties with Osama Bin Laden. What (not so) funny is that the same group of people, when they are fighting US, they are terrorist and got the Guantanamo Bay treatment. When they show up in Xinjing, they are most likely “fighters for independence”.

I also do not think Xinjiang issue would become “Tibit” alike, no matter how many might wish it could be. Xinjiang does not have the superstar Dalai Lama and Xinjiang has much more ties with other parts of China. Religion and culture issues are not as glaring as multi ethnic people had been living together peacefully for centuries. I am Han Chinese and I was told to respect other ethnic people’s religion and custom since first grade. My best friend is Hui Chinese and we all play soccer together with Uighur kids. There are many mosques and many people go there for religious services.

The separatist movement is real. Their goal is to establish “Eastern Turkishstan”. Their means are ultra violent. Buses were blown up just outside my school and for months people were scared to go to the movies because timed bombed were found in movie theaters all over the city. Innocent people were killed and life altered for ever. Many years ago in the City of Yili, there was even larger riot (than the Tibet one) that killed many Han and Uighur people, all in the name of “Independence”. If those were not terrorist attack, I don’t know what would be.

To me, no matter how many hats you put on it, the Xinjiang issue has less to do with religious or political freedom but have everything to do with separatist terrorism and to a much larger extend, the economic inequality. People, Chinese or not, are mostly economical animals. They go to where they can make a better living for them and their families. Xinjiang is much more connected to other parts of China by highways, railroads and airlines compared to Tibet. Many people, especially Han Chinese, go to Xinjiang in hope of finding better opportunities than their home town. They do not have languages problem as many Uighur do. The central government had many preferential policies for the minorities. Their kids can go to college with lower grades. (Something like the Affirmative Action in US) One of my classmates is Uighur and she is fluent in Uighur language, Mandarin and English. She went to the best university in China and US and now works in Walls Street. Opportunities are there.

However, many in the country side or less accessible area, such as southern Xinjing, had been left out in the neck breaking economical development. To me, it means current policies need to be reviewed and improved and more need to be done to help those are in need, Han or Uighur Chinese, to catch up with the tide. This social and economical inequality is a much large problem in today’s China and is not unique to Xinjing. To coat it with religious freedom, independent or human rights just miss the key point.

— Posted by Jun
 
As the evils normally do before justice.

In China.

Trumped up charges against the State!



Here is a reply to your blog by a Xinjiang-ner.

3.April 2nd,
2008
2:23 pm I’m not “in” Xinjiang at this moment. I was born in Urumqi, Xinjiang and spent the first 18 years of my life there. I’m going back to visit my families and friends in a month.

First of all, I guess Xinjiang is always on the mind of Beijing. CIA and former KGB had finger prints all over that place. Not to mention ties with Osama Bin Laden. What (not so) funny is that the same group of people, when they are fighting US, they are terrorist and got the Guantanamo Bay treatment. When they show up in Xinjing, they are most likely “fighters for independence”.

I also do not think Xinjiang issue would become “Tibit” alike, no matter how many might wish it could be. Xinjiang does not have the superstar Dalai Lama and Xinjiang has much more ties with other parts of China. Religion and culture issues are not as glaring as multi ethnic people had been living together peacefully for centuries. I am Han Chinese and I was told to respect other ethnic people’s religion and custom since first grade. My best friend is Hui Chinese and we all play soccer together with Uighur kids. There are many mosques and many people go there for religious services.

The separatist movement is real. Their goal is to establish “Eastern Turkishstan”. Their means are ultra violent. Buses were blown up just outside my school and for months people were scared to go to the movies because timed bombed were found in movie theaters all over the city. Innocent people were killed and life altered for ever. Many years ago in the City of Yili, there was even larger riot (than the Tibet one) that killed many Han and Uighur people, all in the name of “Independence”. If those were not terrorist attack, I don’t know what would be.

To me, no matter how many hats you put on it, the Xinjiang issue has less to do with religious or political freedom but have everything to do with separatist terrorism and to a much larger extend, the economic inequality. People, Chinese or not, are mostly economical animals. They go to where they can make a better living for them and their families. Xinjiang is much more connected to other parts of China by highways, railroads and airlines compared to Tibet. Many people, especially Han Chinese, go to Xinjiang in hope of finding better opportunities than their home town. They do not have languages problem as many Uighur do. The central government had many preferential policies for the minorities. Their kids can go to college with lower grades. (Something like the Affirmative Action in US) One of my classmates is Uighur and she is fluent in Uighur language, Mandarin and English. She went to the best university in China and US and now works in Walls Street. Opportunities are there.

However, many in the country side or less accessible area, such as southern Xinjing, had been left out in the neck breaking economical development. To me, it means current policies need to be reviewed and improved and more need to be done to help those are in need, Han or Uighur Chinese, to catch up with the tide. This social and economical inequality is a much large problem in today’s China and is not unique to Xinjing. To coat it with religious freedom, independent or human rights just miss the key point.

— Posted by Jun



And he is a Han, who has been settled there as per the CCP policy to change the demography.

In Xinjiang, Hans are overwhelming.

In Urmuchi, there are more Hans than indigenous Islamic people!

Do you seriously believe a Han to say anything otherwise?
 
So?

"My best friend is Hui Chinese and we all play soccer together with Uighur kids."

He/She has been hui-ized or uygurized.

Any problem with that?
 
So?

"My best friend is Hui Chinese and we all play soccer together with Uighur kids."

He/She has been hui-ized or uygurized.

Any problem with that?

What is this best friend pizazz that you Chinese seem to pander as the greatest proof of any issue?

What a Gospel truth being said!

A Hui will always remain a Hiu. What's so special about it and a Hui cannot be Hui-ised because a Hui is a Hui!!

You seem to be thoroughly at sixes and sevens!

Look, one can be a slum dweller and he plays with a millionaire, it doesn't mean that the slum Joe becomes a millionaire.

People seem to be influenced by the silly Bollywood inane stuff!

Now, go and play with some more other communities so that you acquire many more best friends to become a man of all seasons!! ;) :)
 

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