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Sir ALL the criticism of Rafale SO FAR in the Indian media
has been about the PRICE and the sidelining of LCA due to Rafale

None of the criticism has been regarding Rafale's capabilities

Because we don't know the capabilities of the "Indian" Rafale at the moment, we will have to wait and see if IRST or HMS will be part of it and when and my criticizm is mainly on the 2 years delays and what difference that makes for Rafale, the EF and India.

See it this way, in Jan 2012 the MoD selected the L1 and L2 and the contract was expected to be signed in the same year, with deliveries starting in 2015. Back than and next year the Rafale capability wise is clearly superior, since all the upgrades the EF is currently developing are not available. So based on the evaluations and the delivery timeline by next year, the Rafale was the best choice, but with 2 years delay things have changed and suddenly the EF looks far closer to Rafale, if not even superior in some fields with the delivery now expected in 2017/18 and that's what I'm pointing out.

As i told earlier, a HMS IS being fully integated.

But you don't know which HMS, nor who funds the integration, or when it will be available. It can be Topsight funded by India, it can be a Scorpionx HMS as you suggested (pre-funded by Thales), which then needs to be evaluated by French or Indian forces, before we know if it will be ordered or not and if Thales offers one for French forces, Sagem will make a counter offer for sure.

Did you read carefully the article linked above about french CEMAA confident?

Yes and we both know that it doesn't mean anything what officials of the forces state about procurements or exports. The IAF chiefs are stating since 2012 that Rafale will be procured soon, but they only state what they think or what is in their interest. The orders are dependent on Dassault mainly, no matter for which country and even French government knows where the problem is, which is why they criticized Dassault for the UAE negotiations before.
Dassault CEO Éric Trappier was stating since Jan 2014 that the deal will be signed soon or by the end of this year and nothing happend right? Now we know that nothing will happen for months, so I don't give too much about these kind of statements and just wait and see when something happens, be it for India or for any of the Rafale export prospects.

There are VERY interesting data about post 2020 evolutions (smart skin awaited in 2020-2025, aswell as High speed radar datalink etc.)

You think? We heared about smart skin / conformal arrays for years, so that's nothing new and the radar data link capability was advertised for Gripen NG and the EF with their AESAs as a prospect too and I think Europe as a whole is moving pretty much for the same capabilities for their Eurocanards beyond 2020. Be it data link, GaN EW jammers, active EM decoys, advanced passive MAWS and ESM capabilities..., the only difference might be when they will be available for whom? I even expect the Gripen E to have much of it first around 2019.
 
@halloweene

Wrt to the search for a smaller weapon for Rafale, I'm curious to know if Safran / Sagem ever thought about developing AASM to an ATGM? I told you before that the AASM 125 development was a mistake, but apart of that, the next expected upgrades reportedly are a dual mode Laser / IR seeker, which could be integrated in a missile hull with a smaller warhead too. Basically going the opposite way that the Brits are going with Brimstone to Spear (ATGM to PGM, by using the same seeker with 2 different hulls) and going from AASM to a missile (PGM to ATGM). Do you think that was or would be considered?
 
Because we don't know the capabilities of the "Indian" Rafale at the moment, we will have to wait and see if IRST or HMS will be part of it and when and my criticizm is mainly on the 2 years delays and what difference that makes for Rafale, the EF and India.

See it this way, in Jan 2012 the MoD selected the L1 and L2 and the contract was expected to be signed in the same year, with deliveries starting in 2015. Back than and next year the Rafale capability wise is clearly superior, since all the upgrades the EF is currently developing are not available. So based on the evaluations and the delivery timeline by next year, the Rafale was the best choice, but with 2 years delay things have changed and suddenly the EF looks far closer to Rafale, if not even superior in some fields with the delivery now expected in 2017/18 and that's what I'm pointing out.



But you don't know which HMS, nor who funds the integration, or when it will be available. It can be Topsight funded by India, it can be a Scorpionx HMS as you suggested (pre-funded by Thales), which then needs to be evaluated by French or Indian forces, before we know if it will be ordered or not and if Thales offers one for French forces, Sagem will make a counter offer for sure.



Yes and we both know that it doesn't mean anything what officials of the forces state about procurements or exports. The IAF chiefs are stating since 2012 that Rafale will be procured soon, but they only state what they think or what is in their interest. The orders are dependent on Dassault mainly, no matter for which country and even French government knows where the problem is, which is why they criticized Dassault for the UAE negotiations before.
Dassault CEO Éric Trappier was stating since Jan 2014 that the deal will be signed soon or by the end of this year and nothing happend right? Now we know that nothing will happen for months, so I don't give too much about these kind of statements and just wait and see when something happens, be it for India or for any of the Rafale export prospects.



You think? We heared about smart skin / conformal arrays for years, so that's nothing new and the radar data link capability was advertised for Gripen NG and the EF with their AESAs as a prospect too and I think Europe as a whole is moving pretty much for the same capabilities for their Eurocanards beyond 2020. Be it data link, GaN EW jammers, active EM decoys, advanced passive MAWS and ESM capabilities..., the only difference might be when they will be available for whom? I even expect the Gripen E to have much of it first around 2019.

GaAS CaptorE IOC is scheduled for 2021. Far from smart skin...
About low collateral damage weapon, personnaly i'd go for the german system allowing to program the amount of detonating explosive in order to keep versatility. But i'm not CEMAA ;)
 
^^^ but he wont agree to it as usual regarding IOC for 2021 as usual in comparision to claims of GaN t/R module /EA/ESM version of captor E for 2019/20 & if any one disagrees with that

and as usual he would be emotionallly tortured by replies like 'You dont like my views naah!!!" :lol:

& you have to back off for good!!:P

CHEERS
 
Rafale Tested with Maximum Weapons Load – 12 Guided Weapons Underwing

rafale_omnirole_takeoff.jpg


Dassault Aviation has begun testing an upgraded variant of the Rafale configured to carry an expanded configuration of weapons and fuel. This configuration will enable the French strike fighter aircraft to attack more targets and conduct counter-air missions at longer range.

At present, the French military remains the single user of this impressive, but controversial jet fighter, since it failed each and every competition except the largest, most lucrative one – the MMRCA competition in India. But Dassault can’t cash in this win, since even after two years of negotiations the contract with the Indian government hasn’t been signed. The Rafale won that competition after it was selected ‘the lowest bidder’, against the Eurofighter Typhoon. But since its selection its cost escalated sharply and almost doubled, bringing the Indian government, currently heading for election, to develop cold feet about their decision to favor the French fighter.

Nevertheless, Dassault is committed to bring new capabilities to the Rafale, according to plan, upgrading the aircraft to the Rafale F3-R standard by 2018. These initial tst flights were only the first in a long series, additional test flights are planned to a complete the clearance of the flight envelope for this configuration, providing the Rafale full multi-role capability at extended range.

Equipped with this configuration, two Rafale aircraft represent the same potential as six Mirage 2000 class aircraft

This configuration comprise a full increment of six air-to-air and six air-to-ground weapons. The air-to-ground ordnance includes six Sagem/MBDA Hammer guided weapons (AASM), carried on two triple-ejector racks, designed specifically for the weapon. The AASM is deployed with one of three optional guidance methods utilizing a GPS guided, laser homing or thermally guided seekers. To extend its range the Hammer is also equipped with a rocket booster. Four MICA air-to-air missiles and two very long range Meteor missiles will be complementing the fighter’s air-to-air capability. The MICA missiles are operational and can be employed with IR or radar guided. These Meteor missiles are yet to enter service – but they are expected to be fielded with the F3-R variant by 2018. In addition to that impressive weapons complement, Rafale will retain its Nexter 30M791 30 mm internal cannon, firing 2500 rounds/min. According to the manufacturer, equipped with this configuration, two Rafale aircraft represent the same potential as six Mirage 2000 class aircraft.

Since June 2013 all production aircraft configured to the new F3-04T-standard are equipped with the new radar, along with an improved front sector optronics equipment (also from Thales) and the DDM-NG passive missile approach warning system, produced by MBDA.

The weapons would take less than a third of the fighter’s payload – the rest will be used to carry fuel to sustain the long range missions the fighter is required to perform. The Rafale can carry up to 9.5 tons of payload (21,000 lbs). To support missions atextended ranges the fighter also carries three 524 gallons (2,000 litre) fuel tanks weighing additional 6.7 tons (14,700 lbs) that will top up the fighter’s internal fuel capacity of 4.7 t (10,300 lbs). These fuel tanks can also be used for ‘buddy refuelling’, further increasing the range and mission endurance of a Rafale-based strike force, a capability particularly important for the naval strike missions.



rafale_scalp.jpg

In the current configuration Rafale carries two Scalp cruise missiles or four direct attack weapons (Hammer/laser guided bombs), with four MICA air-to-air missiles. Photo: French Air Force

In the past the French Rafale could strike deep behind enemy lines utilizing the Scalp cruise missiles, as demonstrated in Libya in 2011. On such missions the Rafales carried two Scalp missiles and three 524 gallon fuel tanks. Other weapons typically carried by the Rafale include GBU-12/24 laser-guided bombs, GBU-49 GPS-guided bombs, AASM and Scalp cruise missiles. On maritime strike missions the Rafale M can also carry the Exocet AM39 Block 2 air-launched anti-ship missile. Since 2010 one of the Air Forces’ Rafale squadrons, EC-1/91 has also assumed the nuclear strike role, carrying ASMP-A missile. By increasing the capabilities of its fourteen hard points, (eight under the wings), with an empty weight of about 10 tons [22000 lbs], the F3 variant is limited to 24.5 tons [54,000 lb.]) thus being capable of carrying 1.5 times its own mass.

rbe2_on_rafale137.jpg

Rafale No. 137 was the first to be equipped with Thales’ new RBE2 AESA radar and the new Front Section Optronics Optronic (FSO-IT) suit. Photo: Dassault Aviation

Clearance of this new configuration was initiated and funded by the aircraft maker Dassault Aviation, in collaboration with the Direction Générale de l’Armement (the French Defense Procurement Agency DGA). According to Dassault, the rapid development of the new configuration is attributed to the open architecture of the aircraft, designed from the outset to perform all of the missions previously assigned to seven different types of aircraft in France.

The Rafale entered service with the French Navy in 2004 and with the French Air Force in 2006. Of the 180 aircraft ordered by France to date, 126 have been delivered. India has also selected the Rafale for its Medium Multi Mission Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement, planning to order at least 126 of the jet fighters. However, two years after the selection New Delhi has not finalized the contract with Dassault and, pressed by the upcoming elections, the Indians are considering a limited order of 18 aircraft to be produced in France, as a near-term solution to get the deal in motion.

The defence ministry headed by AK Antony has developed cold feet after the cost doubled compared to the original estimate. With the general elections just months away, Antony is unsure about the fate of the deal, a defence ministry official said. India’s Diligent Media Corporation (DNA) reports. In January 2012, when Rafale was declared the winner, its price was quoted between $60-65 million (Rs373-Rs400 crore). Today, according to the , its price could now soar to $120 million (Rs746 crore). The second bidder, Eurofighter, had quoted $80-85 million (Rs497-Rs528 crore). The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion (Rs1.75 lakh crore-Rs1.86 lakh crore) DNA quoted an anonymous Indian Air Force source close to the negotiation committee. In 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion (Rs42,000 crore). When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore).

The Rafale fleet with the French Air Force and Navy currently totals almost 120,000 flight hours, including 16,000 in operations. Since mid-2013, production Rafale aircraft are equipped with an active array RBE2 AESA radar from Thales.

Expected to become operational in 2018, Rafale F3-R will be an evolutionary upgrade of the current F3 variant, a part of an ongoing enhancement of the French fighter. Among the improvements are the introduction of RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, developed by Thales. This radar has already been fielded with at least 60 of the Rafales. The first to get the new radar was aircraft #137, that rolled of the production line in October 2012.

Since mid 2013 production aircraft are configured to the new F3-04T-standard are equipped with the new radar, along with an improved front sector optronics (FSO-IT) equipment (also from Thales) and the DDM-NG passive missile approach warning system, produced by MBDA. Another new capability to be integrated with the fighter by 2018 will be the PDL-NG new-generation laser designation pod, currently under development at Thales. Other planned sensors upgrades related to air-to-surface capabilities include assisted target recognition and enhanced sensor resolution, enabling the Rafale to attack ever more elusive targets.

According to Dassault, the ongoing effort will ensure more robust detection, tracking and identification of emerging air-to-air threats, and increase the Rafale’s survivability with new low observable modes and with the latest advances in electronic warfare systems.

rafale_omnirole.jpg

The Rafale has successfully completed its first test flights in a new heavily-armed configuration, comprising six air-to-ground precision AASM Hammer missiles, four medium and long range air-to-air missiles from the MICA family, two very long range METEOR missiles, as well as three 2,000 liter fuel tanks. Photo: Dassault Aviation

Rafale Tested with Maximum Weapons Load – 12 Guided Weapons Underwing | Defense Update:
 
GaAS CaptorE IOC is scheduled for 2021. Far from smart skin...

Look what you have done mate, you have confused @DrSomnath999 even more than he normally is. :D
You should have said, that that would be Scorpions estimated timeline for the "retrofit" of partner T2s and T3s and not when the radar actually could be available. Also with export and even pre-partner versions beeing developed before IOC version. Not to mention that the radar for the partner is not a single development either, since each of them can choose different capabilities and even time lines for the retrofit, based on their requirements and when they phase out older Tornados and F18s (for Spain). The UK radar is a whole different issue all together, since they have an own development beside the Euroradar one and a requirement earlier than other partners.

About low collateral damage weapon, personnaly i'd go for the german system

Which German system do you mean and why not go for an own ATGM based on AASM? Also what happend to the laser guided rocket pod? Should be the most cost-effective choice, at least against light vehicles and ground forces.
 

Correct me if I'm wrong, the advantage is only, that the pilot / wso can program the weapon before it's launched on how much explosive will be used in that particular right?
If true, that doesn't help Rafale to solve any of it's problems, because the point is not only to reduce the collateral damage, but to have a more suitable weapon for such roles / missions and reduced costs!

Take a CAS mission against the IS, a Rafale with 6 x AASM 250 that have scalable warheads is send out. When the fighter reaches the target area, the pilot realizes that he has to attack not only buildings, but also a convoy of light vehicles. He programs 4 of the AASM with reduced explosives to attack the vehicles, while launches the other 2 at the buildings with full capability. So the scalable warhead gave the pilot the flexibility to use the weapon for different targets with a different punch, but the important point is, that weapon as such remains the same!
An AASM 250 launched and a light vehicle, with the used explosives reduced to just 100Kg still costs more than $200.000 Dollars each and that high ammount of cost is what the French government wants to avoid too.

Take the same mission with an EF in the recently shown CAS config with 6 x Brimstone + 2 x PW IV LGBs. The pilot would strike the buildings with PW IV and could use Brimstone missiles for the vehicles. Here the different weapons give the same flexibility and low collateral damage advantage that a scaleable warhead would give, but also lower overall costs and greater load capabilities!
 
i may answer you that 1) you get flexibility for SCAR mission 2) An AASM kit has a far longer lifetime than a GBU one. EF didn't show anything with Brimstone, they just mounted the kit on a plane. Didn't even fly. And a Brimstone 2 costs half the price of an AASM.
In the end, the operational capability vs cost may not be that much different. And PWIV are far from being as versatile as AASM is.
 
i may answer you that 1) you get flexibility for SCAR mission 2) An AASM kit has a far longer lifetime than a GBU one.

First of all, we are talking about basic CAS here, where you don't need much capability of the weapon. That's why the French forces even considered rocket pods or light LGBs. The prime factor is cost, but the reduced warhead of the AASM 125 obviously was not cheap enough for the French forces to procure it, although it retains the capabilities of the AASM as a whole and was the fastest choice to integrate it.
Secondly, the fact that the French forces prefer GBU kits in basic CAS roles shows, that the longer lifetime isn't a factor when the unit cost between AASM and a GBU 12 or 48 is simply too high to be countered with long term benefits.

EF didn't show anything with Brimstone, they just mounted the kit on a plane. Didn't even fly. And a Brimstone 2 costs half the price of an AASM.

I didn't wanted to make the EF look better, but tried to point out the benefit of a mixed weapon load config over the scalable warhead, because the unit cost of a weapon with scalable warhead doesn't change, nor does it add any other capabilities to the weapon. The superior capability of Brimstone in CAS compared to AASM is hardly deniable anyway, especially if the rumored range of Brimstone 2 is really that close to AASM and offer credible stand off capabilities.
 
Hey Sancho.
I talked to CEMAA Denis Mercier this summer. a "Fiche d'Expression de Besoin" (technical definition) is being finalized for a smaller weapon than AASM 250. And there is atm a "crash program" for a smaller weapon (or less lethal) running atm due to Irak events. So both AdA and i agree with you about the need of a lighter weapon for "basic" CAS. (ah and there is nothing like a "basic CAS in intricated complex environments, trust my word on that, you know where i come from).
Things take time to be done properly, but there WILL be such a weapon. Which? No idea!

Little Christmas gift...

IMG_0429_zps85a986f2.jpg
 
I'm not a Typhoon ennemy Sancho, you know me better than that. Missing a film on italian storm shadow release.

Liked the photo?
 
I'm not a Typhoon ennemy Sancho, you know me better than that. Missing a film on italian storm shadow release

Didn't said that you would be one, in fact I consider resonable source and discussion partner. I am just stating points from all sides, to consider what is the best for India or what adds more capability to IAF and even if I still route for the Rafale (since 2008), there are reasons (positive once from the EF and negative once from the Rafale) why my opinion is changing to an extend these days. Just as I am disappointed to see how a huge potential for the Rafale is wasted, by seeing India as an export partner only.

Liked the photo?

Not sure what it is pointing to? :what:


P.S. Didn't found a video of the Storm Shadow launch, the pics are interesting though, pointing towards asymmetric load configs. AFAIK they did the same with GBU10s for spanish EF's too.
 
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Let me quote myself...

Which German system do you mean and why not go for an own ATGM based on AASM? Also what happend to the laser guided rocket pod? Should be the most cost-effective choice, at least against light vehicles and ground forces.


=>

About the french rockets (new generation) that arm the attack helicopter TIGER HAD : Interview with TDA

...Apart from mortars, TDA ARMEMENTS SAS develops the rockets that arm the attack helicopter TIGER. Matthieu Krouri, commercial development director of the system of rockets activated by induction (Système de Roquettes Activées par Induction, SRAI), brings us some light upon this purely French technology...

...TB: We currently find your rockets on aircrafts. Do you envisage adapting them to other platforms: terrestrial, naval, aerial?...

MK: It is the great strategy of TDA ARMEMENTS SAS, which precisely consists in explaining that this rocketing armament, i.e. a munition, can be adapted to series of platforms. The rocket first came back on attack helicopters. We have launchers adapted to the RAFALE’s point 3. We also want to equip armored vehicles, ships and drones with them, as you can notice ate EURONAVAL 2014 with the TANAN by AIRBUS (CASSIDIAN). Clearly, the idea of TDA ARMEMENTS SAS is to promote this munition as being adapted to various platforms and to outline that, with the current financing problem, it is relevant for the joint staff to purchase a type of ammunition that can be deployed onto vectors as numerous as possible...

About the french rockets that arm the attack helicopter TIGER HAD : Interview with TDA |


TDA LR12 Rocket pod.PNG


Digital rocket launchers for combat aircraft or combat helicopters
 
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