What's new

Dogfighting maneuvers

spurdozer

FULL MEMBER
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
157
Reaction score
0
Guys I am a fan of dogfighting. I am a regular viewer of History Channels' dogfighting programs. I know a lot about good dogfighting planes like the Legendary Zero and the Hellcats in the Pacific war and then the F-86 Sabre in the jet age. But I know very little about dogfighting maneuvers like THE BARRELL ROLL and Flat and Rolling Scissors. I would like to know more about these maneuvers and some other maneuvers, scenario in which that maneuver should be performed, Benefits of that maneuver, and the disadvantages of that maneuver like loss of speed or altitude or gain of excess speed. Thanks
 
yes i agree with u very much in manuvers in dogfight but todaqy with BVR missiles and AMRAAM dog fight has been died it is more fisrst detect and shoot at target end of story
 
Other part no matter how much technology improves Dogfight is imminent. Yes it is a game of countermeasures but it will be countermeasures over countermeasures over countermeasures by that time you both are in guns range.
 
Last edited:
Though it is outstanding perfomance to shoot other down it is indeed knowing that one had killed some special... Top 1% of mankind. And with lots of people that will remember it. But it is you or he (these days even she). And thought the weapons make it look less impressive (computerized war) it still is something that will hit you. Just ask the pilots or soldiers that served in Irac. Even after years they will get the same problem and no one will be able to understand that.
 
Guys I am a fan of dogfighting. I am a regular viewer of History Channels' dogfighting programs. I know a lot about good dogfighting planes like the Legendary Zero and the Hellcats in the Pacific war and then the F-86 Sabre in the jet age. But I know very little about dogfighting maneuvers like THE BARRELL ROLL and Flat and Rolling Scissors. I would like to know more about these maneuvers and some other maneuvers, scenario in which that maneuver should be performed, Benefits of that maneuver, and the disadvantages of that maneuver like loss of speed or altitude or gain of excess speed. Thanks

On that show on History Channel, they have excellent CG animation of the fights. Pay more attention to those for detailed info about what the planes are doing. It's an excellent show, but it is clearly biased towards the Americans and the Israelis. Any good "fighter pilot's manual" type book will be much more beneficial to you than anything else if you are interested in the technical details of dogfighting. As for the specific queries, I'll try to help you out:

Barrel Roll: The pilot makes a complete roll in the forward axis following a path that resembles going around the inside of an empty barrel (hence, the name).

This is the path it follows (helix):
http://ca.geocities.com/web_sketches/calculus/radius_of_curvature/helix_radius_vector.gif

Here's an old US Navy instructional video showing the barrell roll
[video=google;4024409585353687737]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4024409585353687737&ei=2N-ySY3kJYrEqQKexOCxCw&q=barrel+roll[/video]

The advantage is that it allows you to bleed-off some of your forward kinetic energy, thus slowing you down (Kinetic Energy is directly proportional to the square of Velocity in vector form, high school physics). When the aggressor gets behind you and is closing in quickly, you do a barrel roll to reverse the positions by forcing an over-shoot. Therefore, ideally, when you slow down, he overshoots, and by the time you return to the original state, you're behind the enemy. "The hunter becomes the hunted"

Flat and Rolling Scissors: They explain it pretty well in this article. The Scissors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another place you can learn more about these meneauvers is at air shows. They usually explain what the plane is about to do before the pilot does it. The only thing is, the displays can be deceptively simple when done by experts, and you end up thinking "what's the big deal?"

Edit I did not realize MuradK had already planned to write a more detailed explanation. Whatever he says will most definitely be more informational than anything that I say, so I can't wait.
 
yes i agree with u very much in manuvers in dogfight but todaqy with BVR missiles and AMRAAM dog fight has been died it is more fisrst detect and shoot at target end of story

TOP GUN was created to Improve the Dying Art of Dogfight.

No matter how technology advances, there will be some dogfights in WVR and planes will be using their Guns as Sir MURADK has mentioned earlier.
 
I wonder, what is the most difficult non-formation flying maneuver to master for students? I'm guessing it will be one that requires the most amount of simultaneous tasks, forcing the pilot to have superior situational awareness. It would also be one that is most physically demanding. Could it be a Split-S?

Edit Hillarious video of a US Navy Blue Angels guy messing with his aviator colleague, pulling high G's. Thank god I'm a "stocky guy".
Notice at the end: Fighter pilots don't like losing so they?

Edit 2 This is what happens when a Split-S goes horribly wrong. Keep in mind, this is a USAF Thunderbirds F-16, and you have to be extremely skilled to be able to fly with these guys.
Thunderbird F-16 Crash (Full Clip) (Special Edition)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I would love to teach you a bit I have to draw them by hand like I did back when doing my CCS. It takes time but not that long I will start posting them one by one.
Let me give you a real fact before the IndoPak War I was always ready for a fight and was looking for some action, The first encounter I shot a hunter , The plane was going down and I was screaming my lungs out that EJECT EJECT EJECT GOD DAME IT EJECT and than I was a sidewinder of my OC hitting it and it was a fire ball. All day I didn't talk to anyone thinking I killed a man who must have had a family. It looks all very exiting on a TV but its not. Right after 3 days of that I shot a Gnat took his canopy off didn't feel any thing, The very day in the afternoon going on a mission one of our sabers was taken out by AAG, I saw his plane blew up into pieces and I looped and killed everyone on that spot God knows how many but I remember 2 AAGs plus 20 plus troops. I did all this not because I was a War junky no because I loved my country and its people.

Other part no matter how much technology improves Dogfight is imminent. Yes it is a game of countermeasures but it will be countermeasures over countermeasures over countermeasures by that time you both are in guns range.

Thanks Sir. It would be really honourable for me to learn from you. Sir can you tell me any book which can guide me about the technical details of different dogfighting maneuvers.
 
On that show on History Channel, they have excellent CG animation of the fights. Pay more attention to those for detailed info about what the planes are doing. It's an excellent show, but it is clearly biased towards the Americans and the Israelis. Any good "fighter pilot's manual" type book will be much more beneficial to you than anything else if you are interested in the technical details of dogfighting. As for the specific queries, I'll try to help you out:

Barrel Roll: The pilot makes a complete roll in the forward axis following a path that resembles going around the inside of an empty barrel (hence, the name).

This is the path it follows (helix):
http://ca.geocities.com/web_sketches/calculus/radius_of_curvature/helix_radius_vector.gif

Here's an old US Navy instructional video showing the barrell roll
USN Training Film: 1953 Barrel Roll Instruction 1 0f 4.

The advantage is that it allows you to bleed-off some of your forward kinetic energy, thus slowing you down (Kinetic Energy is directly proportional to the square of Velocity in vector form, high school physics). When the aggressor gets behind you and is closing in quickly, you do a barrel roll to reverse the positions by forcing an over-shoot. Therefore, ideally, when you slow down, he overshoots, and by the time you return to the original state, you're behind the enemy. "The hunter becomes the hunted"

Flat and Rolling Scissors: They explain it pretty well in this article. The Scissors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another place you can learn more about these meneauvers is at air shows. They usually explain what the plane is about to do before the pilot does it. The only thing is, the displays can be deceptively simple when done by experts, and you end up thinking "what's the big deal?"

Edit I did not realize MuradK had already planned to write a more detailed explanation. Whatever he says will most definitely be more informational than anything that I say, so I can't wait.



Thanks sir. Thanks for guiding me technical details of the barrel roll. I am also excited about Sir Muradk's detailed explaination. You are right about History Channel's biasness towards America. I remember a program about Korean war. There was a lot of James Jabbara and Harold Fischer in that program but didn't even mention Pepelyaev.
 
LOW SPEED YO YO

low_speed_yoyo.jpg

you do a Low Yo Yo once u r chasing a target and u are lacking speed, instead of turning in for him in the horizontal plan, u go for an inward slanting turn, the dip gives u speed and and reduces ur horizontal travel, thus giving u a good chance to kick ur enemy

High SPEED YO YO

high_speed_yoyo.jpg

Once chasing a Low speed target, where u fear that u gonna over shoot him and go in front of him, u convert ur speed into height while keeping the Horizontal travel minimum this way he doesnt spoil ur geometry in a turn and u shoot
 
spurdozer

Lets start with the basics some times you got to run before you walk, I didn't say that it was in IRON MAN.


Up till today no one has ever asked that why was MM Alam so good he wasn't good he knew something which was not practiced in those days.
Air Combat-Related Aerodynamics, they were very few of us who knew this technique Energy Maneuverability. In a dog fight I am pulling 2 to 3 Gs and my enemy behind is pulling 5 to 6 Gs bleeding his energy and I taking advantage off that..
So before I take you throughand the DOGFIGHT MANEUVERS you must understand the basics . How and Why ?

Air Combat-Related Aerodynamics

This section will serve as a refresher course in aerodynamics as they apply to flying your aircraft in combat. It isn't intended to be a complete section, just an overview of information that will enable you to understand the physics behind some of the maneuvers used in air combat, and how to use them to your advantage. We will advance very slowly so our members and you can understand them easily. Remember this is not ABC it will take some understanding these so take your time and try to get the concept in other words use common sense.

Energy Maneuverability

The concept of energy awareness during air combat is fairly new. Wise use and conservation of energy during combat will increase your chances of victory. Your aircraft has two kinds of energy: kinetic and potential. Kinetic energy is related to airspeed. High levels of kinetic energy, or speed, are needed to perform many combat maneuvers. Potential energy is related to altitude and the force of gravity on your aircraft. If you have low speed (kinetic energy) but high altitude (potential energy), you can dive and pick up speed needed to perform a series of combat maneuvers. Conversely, if you have high speed but low altitude, you can convert this speed (kinetic energy) into altitude (potential energy) by climbing.
This combination of airspeed and altitude is often referred to as your energy state. The aircraft's ability to climb, dive, and accelerate to change this state is called energy maneuverability. So what does this mean to you in combat situations? To illustrate this concept, consider the following examples.

Example 1. You're at low altitude, down in the weeds, approaching an enemy aircraft at the same altitude head-on. You're flying considerably faster than your opponent. In a tight turning fight, the slower plane will have the advantage, but you're thinking in three dimensions. So as you approach, you pull up into a steep climb and your opponent pulls up after you. This is called a zoom maneuver. Since you possess more kinetic energy (you're flying faster), you're able to climb higher and gain the advantage. He'll run out of airspeed first and be forced to dive to regain it. You can then pitch back and dive to get on his tail.

Example 2. You're following an enemy aircraft flying at the same speed as you, but you're at a higher altitude. As your enemy twists and turns in an effort to escape, he'll lose speed (kinetic energy). If you follow him through those turns, you'll lose speed, too. But, because you're at a higher altitude, you'll have more potential energy, so you can dive to pick up speed, catch the enemy, and maneuver into a good firing position.

What these examples mean to you, a fighter pilot, is that you must constantly keep an eye on your speed and altitude during combat. A heavy-handed pilot who twists and turns the aircraft around without paying attention to energy losses will soon be unable to maneuver. Once lost, energy is hard to regain; then your only hope is to dive hard and regain some speed assuming, of course you've left yourself enough altitude to perform this maneuver. The lesson here is to avoid low altitude and low speed conditions. If you don't, you're a sitting duck for air-to-air or surface-to-air fire. Also, in this type of fight, it's easy to depart the flight envelope and stall. At low altitude, a stall generally translates into a smoking hole in the ground.

CAUTION

Always keep an eye on your airspeed in low altitude situations. Remember, the ground has a very high kill ratio.:lol::lol:

A good rule of thumb is to maintain a high cruise speed (Mach .9 or so) and a good cushion of altitude (35,000 feet or so) when entering a combat situation. With this speed and altitude, you'll have all the options of climbing or diving at will. Just remember, this altitude can put you in a bad situation tactically on some missions, so the optimum situation isn't always appropriate.

THAT WAS LESSON ONE WE WILL GRADUALLY MOVE ON.
 
I would love to teach you a bit I have to draw them by hand like I did back when doing my CCS. It takes time but not that long I will start posting them one by one.
Let me give you a real fact before the IndoPak War I was always ready for a fight and was looking for some action, The first encounter I shot a hunter , The plane was going down and I was screaming my lungs out that EJECT EJECT EJECT GOD DAME IT EJECT and than I was a sidewinder of my OC hitting it and it was a fire ball. All day I didn't talk to anyone thinking I killed a man who must have had a family. It looks all very exiting on a TV but its not. Right after 3 days of that I shot a Gnat took his canopy off didn't feel any thing, The very day in the afternoon going on a mission one of our sabers was taken out by AAG, I saw his plane blew up into pieces and I looped and killed everyone on that spot God knows how many but I remember 2 AAGs plus 20 plus troops. I did all this not because I was a War junky no because I loved my country and its people.

Other part no matter how much technology improves Dogfight is imminent. Yes it is a game of countermeasures but it will be countermeasures over countermeasures over countermeasures by that time you both are in guns range.

Dear Muradk

Is there any footage of you performing such heroic acts (in a dogfight possibly)...If so please share.
 

Back
Top Bottom