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India's Chandrayaan 3 Success: Can Pakistanis Explore Space?

Sure Pakistan can have a successful space programme.

It is not an exaggeration, when the entire world know about how Pakistanis developed nukes and its delivery system.

Pakistan just has to use its age old adage of 'beg, borrow, steal' for its space programme just as it used it for it nuclear programme.

Uranium enrichment centrifuge designs stolen from Holland by AQ khan.

Atomic weapons design borrowed from China.

Nuclear missiles bartered from North Korea and China. (Ghauri, Abdali, Babur)

And voila Pakistan will have a successful space programme.


And ancient Hindus discovered the modern technologies of computers, internet, airplanes, rockets and space science thousands of years ago when the West had no clue :-)

Hindu nationalists claim that ancient Indians had airplanes, stem cell technology, and the internet​

The rapid rise of pseudoscience in the Modi era triggers ridicule and concern​


 
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I think , now days going to space is not difficult. If pakistan starts with even modest budgest, can do it within 10yrs .

Why?

1.Because all the hard work and technology inventions have been already done.
2. With the advent of 3D printing, testing the concept and theories is relatively easy.
3. It is becoming cheaper to go to space, Pakistan just needs to send small satellite to prove the concept.
Later can scale up the engines etc - which will take time but is doable with time.

Indian/Chinese efforts are worthy of praise , but they are not that extraordinary. Media just making money by milking the news.

Right now nothing is done Extra ordinary when it comes to space. It's same old repeat of space flights. Not a single new thing is being invented right now.

Ofcourse research is still on.

Real deal will be humans going to another planet.
 
Sure Pakistan can have a successful space programme.

It is not an exaggeration, when the entire world know about how Pakistanis developed nukes and its delivery system.

Pakistan just has to use its age old adage of 'beg, borrow, steal' for its space programme just as it used it for it nuclear programme.

Uranium enrichment centrifuge designs stolen from Holland by AQ khan.

Atomic weapons design borrowed from China.

Nuclear missiles bartered from North Korea and China. (Ghauri, Abdali, Babur)

And voila Pakistan will have a successful space programme.

Let's explore the reality of the "indigenous" claim repeated ad infintum by Indian government and New Delhi's defense establishment.


US-European Origins of Indian Missile Program:

APJ Abul Kalam is credited with designing India's first satellite launcher SLV3. Its design is virtually identical to the American Scout rocket used in the 1960s. According to the details published in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, Abul Kalam spent four months in training in the United States in 1963-1964. He visited NASA's Langley Research Center in Virginia, where the U.S. Scout rocket was conceived, and the Wallops Island Flight Center on the Virginia coast, where the Scout was being flown. Soon after Abul Kalam's visit, India requested and received detailed technical reports on the Scout's design, which was unclassified.



US Scout and India's SLV3 are both 23 meters long, use four similar solid-fuel stages and "open loop" guidance, and lift a 40-kilogram payload into low earth orbit. The SLV's 30-foot first stage later became the first stage of the Agni.

The United States was followed by others. Between 1963 and 1975, more than 350 U.S., French, Soviet, and British sounding rockets were launched from India's Thumba Range, which the United States helped design. Thumba's first group of Indian engineers had learned rocket launching and range operation in the United States.

India's other missile, the "Prithvi" (earth), which uses a liquid-propelled motor to carry a one-ton payload 150 miles, resembles the widely sold Soviet Scud-B. Indian sources say that the Agni's second stage is a shortened version of the Prithvi, according to Gary Milhollin of the Wisconsin Project.

France also launched sounding rockets from India, and in the late 1960s allowed India to begin building "Centaure" sounding rockets under license from Sud Aviation.

The aid of the United States and France, however, was quickly surpassed by substantial West German help in the 1970s and 1980s. Germany assisted India in three key missile technologies: guidance, rocket testing, and the use of composite materials. All were supposed to be for the space program, but all were also used for military missiles.

The cryogenic stage used in a recent failed satellite launch by India was a copy of the Russian cryogenic rocket engine and the cryogenic technology transferred to India in the 1990s. According to Non-proliferation review of 1997, it has emerged that Russia continued transferring rocket engine technology to India in 1993 after its agreements with the United States stop such transfer under MTCR. This reportedly resulted in the completion of 60 to 80 percent of the transfers to India.

North American Origins of India's Nuclear Bomb:

India's nuclear program would not have advanced without a lot of help from Canadians that resulted in Indian copies of Canadian reactors to produce plutonium for its nuclear bombs.

India conducted its first atomic bomb test in 1974. Indians used 40 MW Canadian Cirus reactor and U.S. heavy water both imported under guarantees of peaceful use and used them openly to make plutonium for its 1974 nuclear blast.

In 1972, Canadian-built 100 MWe Rajasthan-1 nuclear power reactor became operational, serving as the model for later unsafeguarded reactors. Another Rajasthan unit started operating in 1980 and two units in 2000. In 1983, India's 170 MW Madras-1, a copy of Canadian Rajhastan-1 reactor, became operational. A second Madras unit followed in 1985. According to the Risk Report Volume 11 Number 6 (November-December 2005), the heavy water and other advanced materials and equipment for these plants were smuggled to India from a number of countries, including the USSR, China and Norway, according to The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. Some of the firms, such as West German firm Degussa, were caught and fined by the United States for re-exporting to India 95 kg of U.S.-origin beryllium, usable as a neutron reflector in fission bombs.

In May 1998, India conducted two rounds of nuclear weapon tests. Last year, the media reports indicated that Kasturiranga Santhanam, the coordinator of India's 1998 nuclear tests, went public with allegations that India's Pokhran II test of a thermonuclear bomb in 1998 was actually a fizzle. The device, designed to generate 45 kilotons, yielded an explosion equivalent to only 15 to 20 kilotons of TNT.
 
Let's explore the reality of the "indigenous" claim repeated ad infintum by Indian government and New Delhi's defense establishment.


US-European Origins of Indian Missile Program:

APJ Abul Kalam is credited with designing India's first satellite launcher SLV3. Its design is virtually identical to the American Scout rocket used in the 1960s. According to the details published in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, Abul Kalam spent four months in training in the United States in 1963-1964. He visited NASA's Langley Research Center in Virginia, where the U.S. Scout rocket was conceived, and the Wallops Island Flight Center on the Virginia coast, where the Scout was being flown. Soon after Abul Kalam's visit, India requested and received detailed technical reports on the Scout's design, which was unclassified.



US Scout and India's SLV3 are both 23 meters long, use four similar solid-fuel stages and "open loop" guidance, and lift a 40-kilogram payload into low earth orbit. The SLV's 30-foot first stage later became the first stage of the Agni.

The United States was followed by others. Between 1963 and 1975, more than 350 U.S., French, Soviet, and British sounding rockets were launched from India's Thumba Range, which the United States helped design. Thumba's first group of Indian engineers had learned rocket launching and range operation in the United States.

India's other missile, the "Prithvi" (earth), which uses a liquid-propelled motor to carry a one-ton payload 150 miles, resembles the widely sold Soviet Scud-B. Indian sources say that the Agni's second stage is a shortened version of the Prithvi, according to Gary Milhollin of the Wisconsin Project.

France also launched sounding rockets from India, and in the late 1960s allowed India to begin building "Centaure" sounding rockets under license from Sud Aviation.

The aid of the United States and France, however, was quickly surpassed by substantial West German help in the 1970s and 1980s. Germany assisted India in three key missile technologies: guidance, rocket testing, and the use of composite materials. All were supposed to be for the space program, but all were also used for military missiles.

The cryogenic stage used in a recent failed satellite launch by India was a copy of the Russian cryogenic rocket engine and the cryogenic technology transferred to India in the 1990s. According to Non-proliferation review of 1997, it has emerged that Russia continued transferring rocket engine technology to India in 1993 after its agreements with the United States stop such transfer under MTCR. This reportedly resulted in the completion of 60 to 80 percent of the transfers to India.

North American Origins of India's Nuclear Bomb:

India's nuclear program would not have advanced without a lot of help from Canadians that resulted in Indian copies of Canadian reactors to produce plutonium for its nuclear bombs.

India conducted its first atomic bomb test in 1974. Indians used 40 MW Canadian Cirus reactor and U.S. heavy water both imported under guarantees of peaceful use and used them openly to make plutonium for its 1974 nuclear blast.

In 1972, Canadian-built 100 MWe Rajasthan-1 nuclear power reactor became operational, serving as the model for later unsafeguarded reactors. Another Rajasthan unit started operating in 1980 and two units in 2000. In 1983, India's 170 MW Madras-1, a copy of Canadian Rajhastan-1 reactor, became operational. A second Madras unit followed in 1985. According to the Risk Report Volume 11 Number 6 (November-December 2005), the heavy water and other advanced materials and equipment for these plants were smuggled to India from a number of countries, including the USSR, China and Norway, according to The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. Some of the firms, such as West German firm Degussa, were caught and fined by the United States for re-exporting to India 95 kg of U.S.-origin beryllium, usable as a neutron reflector in fission bombs.

In May 1998, India conducted two rounds of nuclear weapon tests. Last year, the media reports indicated that Kasturiranga Santhanam, the coordinator of India's 1998 nuclear tests, went public with allegations that India's Pokhran II test of a thermonuclear bomb in 1998 was actually a fizzle. The device, designed to generate 45 kilotons, yielded an explosion equivalent to only 15 to 20 kilotons of TNT.
You are giving a link to your own article to prove your own your point...Nice!

You are trying to create false equivalance here.

Here is difference between Indians and Pakistanis. Indian scientists didn't steal blueprints from a country they are working for.

Indian scientists did not have to proliferate nuclear tech to rogue nations to acquire missile technology.

There is a reason, why Pakistan has not been able achieve anything in space, after American Appolo missions ended.
 
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Let's explore the reality of the "indigenous" claim repeated ad infintum by Indian government and New Delhi's defense establishment.


US-European Origins of Indian Missile Program:

APJ Abul Kalam is credited with designing India's first satellite launcher SLV3. Its design is virtually identical to the American Scout rocket used in the 1960s. According to the details published in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, Abul Kalam spent four months in training in the United States in 1963-1964. He visited NASA's Langley Research Center in Virginia, where the U.S. Scout rocket was conceived, and the Wallops Island Flight Center on the Virginia coast, where the Scout was being flown. Soon after Abul Kalam's visit, India requested and received detailed technical reports on the Scout's design, which was unclassified.



US Scout and India's SLV3 are both 23 meters long, use four similar solid-fuel stages and "open loop" guidance, and lift a 40-kilogram payload into low earth orbit. The SLV's 30-foot first stage later became the first stage of the Agni.

The United States was followed by others. Between 1963 and 1975, more than 350 U.S., French, Soviet, and British sounding rockets were launched from India's Thumba Range, which the United States helped design. Thumba's first group of Indian engineers had learned rocket launching and range operation in the United States.

India's other missile, the "Prithvi" (earth), which uses a liquid-propelled motor to carry a one-ton payload 150 miles, resembles the widely sold Soviet Scud-B. Indian sources say that the Agni's second stage is a shortened version of the Prithvi, according to Gary Milhollin of the Wisconsin Project.

France also launched sounding rockets from India, and in the late 1960s allowed India to begin building "Centaure" sounding rockets under license from Sud Aviation.

The aid of the United States and France, however, was quickly surpassed by substantial West German help in the 1970s and 1980s. Germany assisted India in three key missile technologies: guidance, rocket testing, and the use of composite materials. All were supposed to be for the space program, but all were also used for military missiles.

The cryogenic stage used in a recent failed satellite launch by India was a copy of the Russian cryogenic rocket engine and the cryogenic technology transferred to India in the 1990s. According to Non-proliferation review of 1997, it has emerged that Russia continued transferring rocket engine technology to India in 1993 after its agreements with the United States stop such transfer under MTCR. This reportedly resulted in the completion of 60 to 80 percent of the transfers to India.

North American Origins of India's Nuclear Bomb:

India's nuclear program would not have advanced without a lot of help from Canadians that resulted in Indian copies of Canadian reactors to produce plutonium for its nuclear bombs.

India conducted its first atomic bomb test in 1974. Indians used 40 MW Canadian Cirus reactor and U.S. heavy water both imported under guarantees of peaceful use and used them openly to make plutonium for its 1974 nuclear blast.

In 1972, Canadian-built 100 MWe Rajasthan-1 nuclear power reactor became operational, serving as the model for later unsafeguarded reactors. Another Rajasthan unit started operating in 1980 and two units in 2000. In 1983, India's 170 MW Madras-1, a copy of Canadian Rajhastan-1 reactor, became operational. A second Madras unit followed in 1985. According to the Risk Report Volume 11 Number 6 (November-December 2005), the heavy water and other advanced materials and equipment for these plants were smuggled to India from a number of countries, including the USSR, China and Norway, according to The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. Some of the firms, such as West German firm Degussa, were caught and fined by the United States for re-exporting to India 95 kg of U.S.-origin beryllium, usable as a neutron reflector in fission bombs.

In May 1998, India conducted two rounds of nuclear weapon tests. Last year, the media reports indicated that Kasturiranga Santhanam, the coordinator of India's 1998 nuclear tests, went public with allegations that India's Pokhran II test of a thermonuclear bomb in 1998 was actually a fizzle. The device, designed to generate 45 kilotons, yielded an explosion equivalent to only 15 to 20 kilotons of TNT.


Didn’t the recent advancement in Indian SLVs come from a transfer of Russian cryogenic engine technology.

If the Indians can get ToT, I’m sure Pakistan can find a way to do the same. But what the point if it’s not part of a whole system change. Why waste the resources on a prestige project unless we are going to do real science.
 
I think , now days going to space is not difficult. If pakistan starts with even modest budgest, can do it within 10yrs .

Why?

1.Because all the hard work and technology inventions have been already done.
2. With the advent of 3D printing, testing the concept and theories is relatively easy.
3. It is becoming cheaper to go to space, Pakistan just needs to send small satellite to prove the concept.
Later can scale up the engines etc - which will take time but is doable with time.

Indian/Chinese efforts are worthy of praise , but they are not that extraordinary. Media just making money by milking the news.

Right now nothing is done Extra ordinary when it comes to space. It's same old repeat of space flights. Not a single new thing is being invented right now.

Ofcourse research is still on.

Real deal will be humans going to another planet.
SpaceX, Blue Origin, Virgin Galactic have all done space missions. It is not impossible to launch a lander in 10 years with about $10 Billion. It is a matter of intensity of dedication and focus. It is most difficult to do it the first time. Next time, it is a lot of hard work and perseverance.
 
ballistic missiles ≠ space launch vehicles
Didn’t the recent advancement in Indian SLVs come from a transfer of Russian cryogenic engine technology.
When did that happen? USA literally threatened sanctions on India preventing us to buy it from Russia due to which we built our own cryogenic engines. Nowadays our private space companies have also built their own cryogenic engines.


 
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Didn’t the recent advancement in Indian SLVs come from a transfer of Russian cryogenic engine technology.

If the Indians can get ToT, I’m sure Pakistan can find a way to do the same. But what the point if it’s not part of a whole system change. Why waste the resources on a prestige project unless we are going to do real science.

What you say is true in theory how does it work out in practice ?

Whether it is Indians in USA, or the Indian IT exports, overall literacy rate of India Pakistan lags behind.
 
What you say is true in theory how does it work out in practice ?

Whether it is Indians in USA, or the Indian IT exports, overall literacy rate of India Pakistan lags behind.
Priorities. India prioritized building up its cream of the crop and giving them the opportunity to perform.

As in VC funding, even if out of a 100 ventures one succeeds it can carry the portfolio. India took decades of investment to achieve this moment and within a limited budget. Hats off for that. Hopefully the shame of this will help Pakistan get its act together as it always seals to achieve some level of parity.

Considering it is a well worn path, and much of the tech has been “democratized” and so many international programs (especially the Chinese and Turkish ones) have opened up the possibility of joint ventures, especially in polar launches from Pakistan, dedicated efforts over the next 15-20 years could see Pakistan achieve the same feat, at the very least as part of a joint venture. It’s rocket science but it’s not rocket science :)
 
The question was possibility, not probability. Even there, Pakistan had fiscal problems in 1970's onwards when they relentlessly pursued nuclear and missile programs. If they really put their mind to it, they can do something similar with a lunar lander program. North Korea keeps launching sophisticated missiles. Nothing to prevent Pakistan from similarly pursuing a space program.

they should have persisted with space programme with limited funds, atleast by now they could have launched their own satellite with their own rockets without anybody's help and there by high skilled job opportunity could have developed.

I think , now days going to space is not difficult. If pakistan starts with even modest budgest, can do it within 10yrs .

Why?

1.Because all the hard work and technology inventions have been already done.
2. With the advent of 3D printing, testing the concept and theories is relatively easy.
3. It is becoming cheaper to go to space, Pakistan just needs to send small satellite to prove the concept.
Later can scale up the engines etc - which will take time but is doable with time.

Indian/Chinese efforts are worthy of praise , but they are not that extraordinary. Media just making money by milking the news.

Right now nothing is done Extra ordinary when it comes to space. It's same old repeat of space flights. Not a single new thing is being invented right now.

Ofcourse research is still on.

Real deal will be humans going to another planet.
+1

Didn’t the recent advancement in Indian SLVs come from a transfer of Russian cryogenic engine technology.

If the Indians can get ToT, I’m sure Pakistan can find a way to do the same. But what the point if it’s not part of a whole system change. Why waste the resources on a prestige project unless we are going to do real science.

You might have confused, India bought 7 Cryogenic Engine from Russia without any ToT or technical support in 80s. Whereas NASA directly invested in Pakistan rockets and what did you gain ? If India got such support we would have build CE in 90s itself not waited till 2000s.
 
they should have persisted with space programme with limited funds, atleast by now they could have launched their own satellite with their own rockets without anybody's help and there by high skilled job opportunity could have developed.


+1



You might have confused, India bought 7 Cryogenic Engine from Russia without any ToT or technical support in 80s. Whereas NASA directly invested in Pakistan rockets and what did you gain ? If India got such support we would have build CE in 90s itself not waited till 2000s.
It could be that a mix of geo-politics and tech limitations of ISRO only allowed India to benefit from clandestine ToT coupled with indigenous R&D in the last 20 years.

 
You are giving a link to your own article to prove your own your point...Nice!
You realised just now?
@RiazHaq is one of the few self claimed analysts who says - such and such is truth because @RiazHaq has written article in a prestigious blog owned by one @RiazHaq .

Basically @RiazHaq has been known to declare @RiazHaq a credible source by quoting @RiazHaq’s articles in a blog owned by @RiazHaq.
 
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You realised just now?
@RiazHaq is one of the few self claimed analysts who says - such and such is truth because @RiazHaq has written article in a prestigious blog owned by one @RiazHaq .

Basically @RiazHaq has been known to declare @RiazHaq a credible source by quoting @RiazHaq’s articles in a blog owned by @RiazHaq.

And Riaz Haq has just confirmed in another article how his views are quoted extensively on a reputable defence forum PDF and he is in the middle of writing another important article on Riaz Haq, the famous world renowned Analyst of all things.
 
And Riaz Haq has just confirmed in another article how his views are quoted extensively on a reputable defence forum PDF and he is in the middle of writing another important article on Riaz Haq, the famous world renowned Analyst of all things.

Teri maa ki phuddi Indian madarchod. When are you going to liberate Kashmir from Pakistan?
 

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