PA to recieve 20 more Cobra Helicopters

[Neo]

Thanks mate!

 

[fatman17]

Welcome - anytime!

 

[Ahassan]

PA has Iranian versions of AH-1J in its inventory do correct me if iam wrong.........

 

[Keysersoze]

PA has Iranian versions of AH-1J in its inventory do correct me if iam wrong.........

Nope as stated they are American

 

[blain2]

The original Pakistani ones were AH-1S and the recent ones AH-1Fs. All have been upgraded to AH-1F standard with CNITE now.

 

[Ahassan]

Nope as stated they are American

then please see this.......


AH-1 Cobra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

history operations..........

 

[EagleEyes]

US hands over 30 military helicopters to Pakistan

* Transfer part of $235m project to build Army Aviation’s capacity

Staff Report

RAWALPINDI: The US formally handed over 26 Bell-412 helicopters and four completely refurbished Cobra helicopters to the Pakistan Army at a ceremony held here on Monday.

US Ambassador Anne Patterson handed the helicopters over to Defence Secretary Kamran Rasool.

Rasool thanked the US government and said that the induction of these helicopters into the army would significantly enhance their operational capabilities.

Speaking at the formalising ceremony of the final acceptance and transfer of 25 Bell-412 helicopters to the army at Qasim Airbase, Patterson praised Pakistan Army Aviation and said that the induction of these helicopters would strengthen their efforts to fight extremism and bring peace and stability to the region. She said the day marked a new chapter in Army Aviation’s history.

“This event demonstrates the continued commitment of the US to cooperation with Pakistan,” Patterson said. “Our military assistance programme are for the long term. They are the foundation for cooperation and engagement, and a way to strengthen our bonds as partners and allies.”

Army Aviation helped: In 2004, Pakistan and the US embarked on a long-term $235 million project to help build Army Aviation’s capability. During the first phase of the project, Pakistan leased the helicopters while the US provided the resources, funding, training and support to help Pakistan establish a strong and reliable helicopter fleet.

“Today we celebrate the beginning of Phase-II. The Pakistan Army now takes ownership of these helicopters,” the senior American diplomat said. “The US will continue to provide support and training as Pakistan establishes a helicopter force capable of enhancing combat operations, providing security, and engaging in medical evacuations and humanitarian relief throughout the region.”

Earlier, Maj Gen Syed Taqi Naseer Rizvi, director general of Army Aviation, said he hoped the helicopters would “go a long way in fortifying the country’s capability to effectively combat the menace of terrorism,” AP reported.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[EagleEyes]

Add 39 + 4= 43. There is a very low chance that these four AH-1F Cobra Helicopters will be stored for spares.

 

[Keysersoze]

then please see this.......


AH-1 Cobra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

history operations..........

yes well if you can find a non -wikipedia source I'll be happy to listen....it sounds like rubbish to me. Why use Iranian aircraft when you have your own since 1984?

 

[Keysersoze]

Add 39 + 4= 43. There is a very low chance that these four AH-1F Cobra Helicopters will be stored for spares.

Webby those are part of the 20 new ones that were coming. They are not additional ones.

 

[falcone]

Same article from another source:

"U.S. Transfers 25 Combat Helicopters To Pakistan Army Aviation Wing
10/22/2007

Islamabad - The U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan, Anne W. Patterson, today paid rich tributes to the “courage and professionalism” of Pakistan Army aviation personnel and declared them “an asset to Pakistan Army Aviation and to our combined effort to fight extremism and bring peace and stability to the region.”

Speaking at the formalizing ceremony of the final acceptance and transfer of 25 Bell-412 helicopters to Pakistan Army at the Qasim Airbase, near Rawalpindi, Ambassador Patterson said that the day marked a new chapter in Pakistan Army’s aviation history.

“This event demonstrates the continued commitment of the United States to cooperation with Pakistan,” Ambassador Patterson said. “Our military assistance programs are for the long term. They are the foundation for cooperation and engagement, and a way to strengthen our bonds as partners and allies.”

In 2004, Pakistan and the U.S. embarked on a long-term $235million project to help build Pakistan’s army aviation capability. During the first phase of the project, Pakistan leased the helicopters while the U.S. provided the resources, funding, training, and support to help Pakistan establish a strong and reliable helicopter fleet.

“Today we celebrate the beginning of Phase-II. The Pakistan Army now takes ownership of these helicopters,” the senior American diplomat noted. “The U.S. will continue to provide support and training as Pakistan establishes a helicopter force capable of enhancing combat operations, providing security, and engaging in medical evacuations and humanitarian relief throughout the region.”

“The American and Pakistani armed forces have a long and rich history of cooperation,” Ambassador Patterson emphasized. “This relationship is represented by more than five billion dollars in military programs over the last six years.”

 

[blain2]

yes well if you can find a non -wikipedia source I'll be happy to listen....it sounds like rubbish to me. Why use Iranian aircraft when you have your own since 1984?

I can speak to that. Wiki says the following:

The Pakistan Army has also used the AH-1 as its primary gunship helicopter during the mid-1970s tribal uprising in Pakistan's Baluchistan province, where donated Iranian AH-1J were used against tribal insurgents. The recent insurgencies in the Waziristan regions has seen Pakistani AH-1s seeing action against Taliban & Al Qaeda fighters and their tribal allies, as well as operations against insurgents in another more recent Baluch tribal uprising recently led by armed Bugti and Marri tribesmen under the late Nawab Akbar Khan Bugti and the Balochistan Liberation Army since the mid-2000s.

Iranians did not donate the Cobras, rather assisted PA in these operations as they had a threat of Baluch insurgency spreading over to their Baluchistan/Sistan provinces. Based on what I know, the Iranian assistance was in the form of Bell UH-1Hs (not Cobras) with MGs mounted.

So PA relied on the Iranian firepower in certain joint operations. A close relative of mine was stationed in Quetta at that time so I know so of these operations involving the (non-Cobra) gunships.

The following is a very good article, very critical of the Fubars on Cobra induction and other in the PAA at PakDef (who says that Pakistani gloss over their screw-ups?):

Induction of Pumas

Early 1977 saw the beginning of post haste induction of 30 Pumas. There was no hangar available,no trained manpower, no office or living accn, no stores, no pilots, no technicians, no ground support equipment, no nothing, yet everyone seemed very keen to go to France and get the Pumas.

The airframes and components were old stock, which the French were palming off on us, and not new production as stipulated in the contract. The tech offrs reported this discrepancy and would not accept the hels at the factory in France, but were ordered to do so regardless. I recall Col Jalil ur Rehman, who was the first flt engr trained on the VIP Puma, saying that he had recommended during a briefing in GHQ that a tech team be placed in France during the assembly of our Pumas, but it was not agreed to. The sensible and logical way would have been to ensure that the hangars and accn were built, the pilots and manpower trained and in posn, tools, eqpt and GSE in place, the TO&Es approved, etc, before the hels arrived in the country. As a result of our lack of planning, the hels arrived and stood parked in the open, at the mercy of the elements, and 299 Bn told to look after them as best they could. There must have been many goof ups and much damage, besides the heavy damage incurred on the fleet during a hailstorm. The nation pays a heavy price for our ignorance, our petty self-interests and our greed.

Recovery of AC

Rec is one of the responsibilities of EME, incl rec of ac. All those offrs who had attended Ac Maint Offrs Course (AMOC) in USA must have been taught that the preferred form of rec is a fly-out rec, yet this golden rule was not applied at least in two instances. The first occurred soon after the Mi-8s were inducted. An O-1 force landed in the Muslim Bagh area. Some one decided to rec it by sling loading it under an Mi-8. After take off, since the wings had not been removed, the O-1 started swaying excessively and had to be jettisoned, shattering it to bits. The sec occurred in early 1977. Brig Amanullah Choudhry force landed north of the Ravi due to some mech problem with the O-1 when returning from Lahore. He made a perfect landing in a field, and the ac was unscathed. Next day I went to the site to assess how to rec it, and on return to Base, and advised the Comd that an engine should be sent down, fitted on the ac, and then the ac should be flown out. After some hesitation he agreed, but before we could start the ex, some one prevailed on him to rec it by sling loading under an Mi-8 without consulting me as CO of the bn responsible for the rec. An Mi-8 was accordingly sent off to the site, and the results were the same: the O-1 was jettisoned near the Ravi, the Mi-8 landed near the wreckage, picked up the pieces and del them to the sqn in Lahore!

OH-13S Serviceability

Much of the credit for keeping the fleet of 11 hels flyable must go to Maj Sohail Qureshi, an EME pilot who served in 199 for several years. His dedication to the task kept the hels in the air for many years, and as soon as he got posted out via a Cobra course, the hels started getting grounded, till none was flyable. Four Years in P-751

Four Years in P-751

With the induction of Mushak MFI-17 ac, a Project Dte P-751 was established under the Ministry of Defence for its local assembly and manufacture. It comprised an Assembly Plant at PAF Risalpur, and a Project Dte at Rawalpindi which was tasked to set up manufacturing facilities at Kamra, where rebuild factories were already being raised for Mirage 3 and F-6 fighters with French and Chinese collaboration. In mid 1977 I got another punishment posting, this time to P-751 Project Dte, probably because the senior aviators and EME bosses considered me too independent-minded. While my avn experience was limited to flying and maint, I was put in charge of planning the facilities at Kamra. I did not like the posting and initially found it difficult to adjust to a purely desk job, but gradually got used to it. I kept up my flying connections and got a CAA CPL on Cessna 150, which added to my knowledge about flying.

While at P-751, I got a chance to delve into the files and find out how SAAB MFI-17 Mushaks got selected for PAF and Army Avn. PAF was looking for a replacement for their aging T-6G trainer ac, while the Army was looking for something to replace O-1s. I don’t know about the PAF, but the Avn carried out trials of the ac in Pakistan, and gave it a glowing report it did not merit. For example, in the summary of the trial report sent to GHQ, Comd Qasim Base stated in clear words that “the short field takeoff and landing performance of Mushak is equal to or better than O-1”. This was a blatant lie, since it is well-known that O-1 needs no more than 200 yds while Mushak needs at least 600 yds and has a very poor climb out rate. Mushak also has a very low rate of climb, especially in high density altitude, and in the summer it gets extremely hot in the cockpit due to large perspex canopy and poor ventilation. The ac was designed for use in the cold Scandinavian climate, not the extremely hot climate of Pakistan, and its engine was underpowered for our conditions. It was claimed that it could carry armts under the wings, and came wired accordingly, but could never be utilised for that purpose. It was supposed to be capable of a third seat in the cargo compartment, but no one ever saw such a seat. (I once flew a Mushak with a passenger seated on the floor in the cargo area and one in front seat from Risalpur to Lahore in April 1981. It took off after a very long roll, and took about fifteen minutes to climb 3000 ft). Only a couple of ac were in svc in Nigeria, none in any of the armed forces of any Scandinavian country. It could therefore be concluded that some nifty salesmanship, if not improprieties, must have influenced the decision to induct it. Neither was it a good ac for basic trg, being too expensive; a much cheaper civilian ac like Cessna 150/152 or similar, with half the fuel consumption and readily aval spare parts at very economical prices would have served the purpose in a much more cost effective manner (it can still be done). Strange logic was used; the PAF said that since the Army was inducting the ac, the PAF should also induct it, while the Army used the reverse logic that since the PAF was inducting it, the Army should also do the same. The deal involved 15 ac in flyaway condition for the PAF, 10 in the form of SKD kits and about 20 or so in CKD kits, to be assembled locally, materials for local manufacture of 25 ac, etc, along with a license fee of about a million dollars.

P-751 proved to be a great learning experience, but come to think of it, one pays dearly for one’s ignorance and learning on the job. It would have been much better if initially some people had been attached to an ac production facility to learn the ins and outs of the industry before trying to set up one’s own ab initio. But that is not how things work in government organisations where both buyer and seller are eager to clinch the deal, pocket the kickbacks and the profits, consequences be damned. The financial analysts in the MoD were of the view that the project wasn’t viable, after the deal was signed, sealed and paid for. The DG Kamra was a farsighted, pushing man. We had a little money left in our budget, so he got us to start work on the factory by erecting a boundary wall worth a couple of lac rupees around the selected site, which later proved to be unsuitable because of low load bearing pressure of the soil. Once the boundary wall came up, no body could obstruct further construction. A new site was selected, and a group of buildings came up in due course and the requisite machinery was installed. Several pers had to be sent abroad, and I ensured that the Army got a fair share amongst the trainees. There was one other thing I was able to do after some struggle. The PAF and Army pers have a different ration scale. I was able to get a govt letter issued entitling Avn techs to get the same scale of rations as long as they served alongside PAF techs. Many of our men got substantial arrears. (Avn should try to get the PAF ration scales for its men). When the new estbs were auth the army, being the maj customer of the ac, also got a fair share of the appts.

I was to learn yet again that it does not pay to work too hard. In Jan 1980 I was incl in a panel for selecting an EME lt col for deputation to Saudi Arabia, which was setting up its own Army Avn. One of the senior offrs on the selection board asked whether it was the right time for me to leave the project in midstream. I wonder whether he was that interested in the project, or was he trying to make room for some favoured candidate although I was far senior to the other two candidates with much more experience, including flying quals. For whatever reason, they did not select me. Then I was nominated for the 1980 War Course, but my bosses quietly, on their own, without telling me, got my name removed, “because I had valuable knowledge”. I represented to the COAS, who ruled that I should be incl in the 1981 course. I ended up completing four years in P-751, and joined NDC just when the factory was about to start production. A couple of years later, I was privileged to make the first test flight on the first locally manufactured Mushak at Kamra: the flight was fine, but the perspex of the main canopy was highly distorted, resulting in a splitting headache. After some experimentation, the distortion problem was resolved.

Six Years in 503 Avn Base Wksp

Towards the end of the War Course, I attended a farewell dinner for Brig Amanullah Choudhry, a stalwart of Avn who was about to retire. He asked where I expected to go after the course, to which I replied without hesitation that while I had been out for a long time, my heart had always stayed in Avn. Not that he could influence MS Branch; I was posted to503 as Dy Comdt in 1982. Some significant events during the six years that I spent in 503 are briefly narrated below.

Hiding Accidents

One day I noticed a CAF JetRanger undergoing structural repair in the Wksp. Enquiry revealed that it had met a minor accident in Baluchistan, and had been flown to Qasim for repairs without any accident report having been filed or an inquiry carried out. The old buddy network had come into play, but this does not bring any comfort to those pilots who are honest about reporting incidents or accidents and have to pay a price. To my knowledge, nobody has been hanged, flogged or stripped for reporting an accident, so why hide it?
Cobra Induction

Soon after joining 503, I was appointed as tech member of the Cobra Induction Cell. Ten AH-1S Cobras had been ordered, with an order for another ten in the pipeline. This proved to be another interesting learning experience. First and foremost question was how Cobra had been selected for induction. No user trials were carried out; in fact apparently no one had even seen the hel till after the sale had been agreed upon with the US Army. The hels are extremely expensive, in excess of ten million dollars per copy, and therefore merited a thorough evaluation before selection. In Dec 82, I was a member of a team that went to USA to review the induction programme and got to visit the US Army Avn School at Fort Rucker, 6 Air Cav Bde at Fort Hood, and Bell Helicopters before going on to St Louis for a Programme Management Review. In this brief visit we got some idea of what Cobra induction involved, and we altered the contract to incl a lot of things not incl in the initial offer. We also discussed the trg requirements in the US for pilots and tech pers. Looking back, I think it would have been much better if initially some people had been imbedded with a Cobra unit of the US Army for a month or so that a real feel for the hel was developed before we entered into a deal to buy Cobras. This, however, is not how our government works; it will spend millions without hesitation but is shy of spending pennies. Perhaps there were other forces behind the deal. The US Army, however, has a much more systematic way of inducting maj items of eqpt. For example, they sent a large multi-disciplinary team to Pakistan to survey our facilities and assess our needs, for which we were billed about two lac dollars, before they agreed to the sale. Then they emp some people at St Louis to deal exclusively with our programme. Later on a team came shortly before the Cobras were to arrive to ensure that the required facilities were in place. They wanted that one team deal with the induction from start to finish, but since foreign visits were involved, some very senior offrs wanted the team changed every six months so that others could get a chance to visit the US. Against much envy and resistance, we made two more trips to the US before the Cobras arrived in early 1985. Amongst other things, I was able to get maint test pilots trained, and two offrs placed at the Bell factory during the assembly work for a year so that they could see and learn in the process. Two were also sent for the second batch of ten hels. However, although Cobras are supposed to be emp in pairs along with a scout hel, no scout hel was selected before the Cobras arrived.

During the visit to Bell factory, we by chance saw some Cobras being assembled for delivery to Israel; these had special sand filters, which were not incl in our deal. I got these incl because of our highly sandy and dusty conditions, but the delivery schedule was such that they could not be fitted in the factory on the first batch, so they had to be inst at Multan. The sec batch came factory-fitted with filters. These filters should have contributed greatly to enhance engine life in our op conditions. We had sent a very large no. of our best tech offrs and men to USA for trg and atts, and I was confident that they would be able to handle the Cobras on their own. The US military wanted to send a six-man team for one year to Multan, which I opposed and GHQ even agreed to my viewpoint, but then some other forces came into play and the US team was invited at a cost of a million dollars.

I became Comdt 503 in June 1984, and contd in this appt till Aug 1988. In early 1985 a Cobra induction ceremony was held in Qasim Base, although the Cobras were loc at Multan, probably to facilitate the senior offrs. Part of the planned ceremony was that a Cobra would make a concealed approach along a stream and then suddenly emerge in front of the spectators. Brig Nauman, Qasim Base Comd, was flying an Alouette along with a Cobra pilot to show the latter the approach route. Due to some misjudgement, he crashed into the stream; all on board survived without injuries. This was perhaps the only maj accident in Avn history where an inquiry was not held; Brig Nauman said that it was his own mistake, pure and simple, he was to blame, and no inquiry was needed to estb the causes. This is in sharp contrast to most accidents, where flyers and maint alike try to cover up their mistakes, and try to pass on the blame. Incidentally, Riffat Beg, the Cobra pilot, almost drowned because he could not undo the French seat belt; some body realised that he head not surfaced and managed to rescue him.

A US team participated in the ceremony. Amongst them was a lady who used to participate in our meetings in USA. She remarked to me that it must be a very proud day for all of us, to which I replied, “Yes, but my children, and their children will never be able to repay the cost of these hels.” She was left speechless.

AB-205/UH-1H Refurbishment

Iran had provided a lot of helicopters and crew for the Baluchistan ops in the seventies. At some stage it took back the Chinooks but left the ten AB-205s to be flown by Pakistani crews who had been trained on UH-1H. Iran also continued provided spare parts sp, but the sup was sporadic. Some of the spare parts funded by Cabinet Division that were meant for UH-1H were quietly diverted to keep the 205s flying, but eventually the hels got grounded for lack of spares, which brings up the question as to why acquire equipment if you do not have the means to operate and support it, knowing full well that Avn is a very expensive business. The answer could well lie in our craze to acquire expensive equipment, raise more and more organisations, and let them then go to the dogs after the commissions, kickbacks and the courses have been availed. Anyhow all the 205s got grounded, and some of the UH-1s too. It was then decided that a refurbishment programme be undertaken in 503 to make the hels flyable, for which a one-time allotment of funds was made. This was started in 1984 with collaboration of Agusta of Italy, and the first hel was completed in 1985, fol in quick succession by the rest. The irony is that no estb was auth to fly and maint these refurbished hels, and they must have started deteriorating soon thereafter. In fact in 1987 Cabinet Division expressed inability to provide funding at the previous level for its UH-1s, so the maint estb was drastically reduced to just about ten men for four or five hels, with no tools, no vehs, no GSE, no nothing. With ten men, it is not possible to maint even one hel over an extended period.
Overhaul of Mi-8 Hels

Mi-8 hels, which had been inducted around 1968, had to undergo airframe overhaul after every five years, and since there were no overhaul facilities in Pakistan, from1973 onwards periodic ferries to Russia started, whereby a group of pilots and techs would take the hels to Tbilisi in Georgia via Iran and hand the hels to the Russian crew who would then ferry them to Leningrad. The Pakistani team would fly to Leningrad by commercial aircraft and then formally hand over the hels to the factory. They would then take over any hel that had been delivered previously, and the return journey would begin. This had become quite a racket, with some people claiming a monopoly of going on the ferries. The monopoly of the techs was broken after some time, but the few Mi-8 pilots had a jolly good time. Although the turn around time for a ferry was about six weeks, they would prolong their stay for on reason or the other. One ferry took three months, and the Defence Attaché in Moscow had to go to Leningrad to order the crew to go back! The flying was leisurely; whereas flying six to eight hrs a day in Pakistan is common and acceptable, they would not fly for more than about two hrs a day while transiting through Iran. The idea was to make as much money as possible, and bring back loads of cheap Russian goods. Living in Russia was very cheap because of the black market of US dollars (one EME lt col was later court martialled for dollar racketeering, but got acquitted). A team was sent to Russia for trg in overhaul of Mi-8s, and a lot of tools and equipment were acquired. An attempt was made to start Mi-8 overhaul in 503 in the early eighties, and several hels were put through overhaul, but the vested interests would have none of that; they wanted to continue their trips to Russia, never mind the cost to the State. In this tussle all the Mi-8s got grounded, till finally in1987 a Chinese team was invited to overhaul three airframes in 503 while the dynamic components were sent to China. The first overhauled hel was handed over in 1988, and in due course complete indigenous overhaul started. There seemed to be an element of undue haste in handing over the first hel to Avn Gp 2, so much so that the then DGEME fixed the date for the ceremony even before full flt testing and shake down had been completed, against my advice. A Chinese team was invited to the ceremony, while the COAS was the Chief Guest. Luckily, we were able to complete the testing before the ceremony, and the hand over went off successfully. However, a few days later, on a flt to Gujranwala, there was a hydraulic hose failure, and the team sent by Gp 2 for the repair mixed up the connections during replacement of hoses. Another malfunction took place soon afterwards, and the hel was damaged to considerable extent. The Chinese graciously agreed to share the cost of the repairs because they had supplied the defective hoses. We tried to be good hosts to the Chinese while they worked with us; this met with disapproval from the DGEME, who was not inclined to give them any creature comforts or courtesies. The Chinese seldom made any demands upon us, unlike Western technicians, but nevertheless they deserved better treatment

.

Link to the whole article:
http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/army/armyaviation/oldaviator.html

 

[Ahassan]

thanx for correcting............

 

[flameboard]

Aircraft the US is selling us these days may be good for anti insurgency but are downgraded so we cannot use them internationally like against India or anyone else that might think of attacking us. Pakistan should spend this money to upgrade the JF-17 and increase independence, for example Japan has advanced aircraft technology and probably would be willing to transfer technology. Even if it doesn't the JF-17 will be moving up.
I am totally against US technology unless its transfer of tech the stuff we get from them really isn't the advanced or great.
We have great aeronautical allies around the world and great engineers in Pakistan, we cannot just manage, we can beat.

 

[karan.1970]

dude.. you responded to a 3 year old thread