PAK pilots on Sukhoi's

[1000VA]

'Well brother, Su-30MKI is a good plane but it is not invincible. It is built by humans, flown by humans and maintained by humans. It is our strong belief that if anything is created by humans it can be countered by humans. We study our adversary in great detail and have developed different strategies as per situation. Even if we are pitted against stealth fighters like F-22 we would put up a fight. If we have the guts to stand up against the Raptor, and have raised our bars of training at the level of the Raptor, the Indian Su-30 is comparatively much easier to handle."

Never heard that story before any links to prove your claim.

 

[Dazzler]

Never heard that story before any links to prove your claim.

You will not find a link to a personal conversation.

Back on topic please. it was a useful exercise for both AFs especially for us as our pilots have learned quite a few tricks to overcome su-30 in different regimes. Also, as a saying goes, the bigger they are, the harder they fall, seems to be a case for this fighter because its huge size, payload, range, comes with a huge RCS. Our pilots were able to see it at very distant ranges through naked eye and RWR shouted way early! Even coupled with jammers, its hard to hide. Maneuverability is impressive but as santro mentioned, it suffers at transonic, low speed due to energy bleed, again the size becomes issue here. We liked it overall but as Indian friends keep worshiping it, from what i m told at least, it is far from perfect. Yes it is still an MKK not MKI, but general dimensions are pretty similar. Also, PAF contingent has been in China for quite some time now flying different PLAAF fighters including J-10, MKK etc so it is nothing alien to them anymore.

 

[Bossman]

bossman

Your comments re Sorties rates being higher for PAF than SU30MKI.

hAVE YOU EVER CONSIDERED SANCTIONS AND EMBARGOS on the F16 FLEET AND OTHER AMERICAN WEAPONS DURING THE NEXT INDO PAK WAR.

America is now a major Indian ally those F16 can be compromised by the double dealing yanks

A point raised by many members on this forum.

Unfortunately for both IAF & PAF they are too reliant on overseas suppliers so sortie rates can suffer both sides of the borders. NOBODY IS IMMUNE

Sanctions will have an impact if they have been in place much before the conflicts starts and reserves are already down. In a short war, which will be the case in any indo-pakistan conflict, normal level of reserve maintained by PAF should suffice. Once a war starts ongoing replinishment from any source for either of the countries will be very limited.

As far as things going wrong in war, many things can go wrong and impact either of the countries. For example much of Punjab is covered in a thick fog during winter, the usual time for a war in our region. If this happens the IAF numerical advantage and its ability to provide ground support will be greatly compromised atleast in the Punjab region. So the point is in the fog of war, many thingc can go wrong which could impact both qualitative or quantitative advantages, people talk about in peace time.

 

[Shinigami]

بعض ذرائع کا یہ بھی کہنا ہے کہ ایڈمرل مولن کو اس بھارتی ایس۔یو تیس جہاز کی تصاویر بھی دکھائی گئیں جو تمام اسلحے سے لیس پاکستان کے صوبے پنجاب کے مرکز میں واقع فوجی چھاؤنی کھاریاں کے اوپر سے پرواز کر رہا تھا۔

عسکری ذرائع کے مطابق جس جہاز نے بارہ دسمبر کے روز لاہور سیکٹر میں پاکستان کی فضائی حدود کی خلاف ورزی کی تھی اسے پہلے سے منتظر پاکستانی لڑاکا طیاروں نے اپنی ’فائرنگ رینج’ میں لے لیا تھا لیکن مار گرانے سے پہلے دی جانے والی تنبیہ پر اس طیارے نے واپسی کا راستہ اختیار کر لیا تھا۔ اس بھارتی طیارے کو مگ انتیس جہازوں کی ایک ٹکڑی کی پشت پناہی یا بیک اپ سپورٹ بھی حاصل تھی جو بھارتی فضائی حدود سے یہ منظر دیکھ رہے تھے۔

"Some sources have also mentioned that Admiral Mullen was shown the photos of an Indian Su-30, fully loaded with ordnance, flying over the Pakistani province of Punjab.....

According to military sources, the aircraft which violated Pakistani airspace in the Lahore sector on 12 December was locked on, however prior to it being shot down, it was given a warning upon which the aircraft returned. This aircraft was backed up by a flight of Mig-29s who were witnessing this event from within the Indian airspace."

Source



Our respected member retired Air-force Muradk


Indian Member - iamunique




'Well brother, Su-30MKI is a good plane but it is not invincible. It is built by humans, flown by humans and maintained by humans. It is our strong belief that if anything is created by humans it can be countered by humans. We study our adversary in great detail and have developed different strategies as per situation. Even if we are pitted against stealth fighters like F-22 we would put up a fight. If we have the guts to stand up against the Raptor, and have raised our bars of training at the level of the Raptor, the Indian Su-30 is comparatively much easier to handle."

PAF dogfighted with Raptor F-22 (via Su-30MKI try imagination)

Gen Kayani said in his famour word: ‘Next time, we’ll bring it down’

nobody is making any such claim. anybody with half a brain can figure out that MKI can be shot down just like any other jet.

If we have the guts to stand up against the Raptor, and have raised our bars of training at the level of the Raptor, the Indian Su-30 is comparatively much easier to handle.

Guts? lol you dont need guts to take part in an exercise

 

[SQ8]

You will not find a link to a personal conversation.
.....

best to not expect any OPFOR supporter to believe personal observations.. so mentioning them for local consumption is better.. but to expect any acceptance from anybody else is folly.. moreover.. expect characteristic loads of cynicism on any "non-internet" based claims.

..ish
However.. as far the hearsay of the good Gen K uttering such bravado..(if this ever occurred)
I oft find myself at loss as to why Army personnel keep overestimating the PAF..
it would dawn on such assumption that while the Raptor can be brought down... a single raptor would probably take 5 or 6 4th gen fighters down with it.. ..and that too if its fighting without support.


The Problem with the MKI is.. simply because its the MK(India)..
I find the MKM a better sibling than the MKI.
The balance between guesstimating abilities .. and hype.. has never gone down well with certain sections of the forum...and probably never will.
A true gauge of the MKI.. was and still is in my view the much maligned red flag video, its shortcomings in flight and in maintainability were highlighted accurately...except where the radars and jammers never came into play..
The radar's abilities.. even half of it can be gauged from the Chinese.. after all.. they come from the same family.
Its the Israeli components that have to be overcome.
what has, and is being done about the latter.. is best left unsaid.

 

[kingdurgaking]

The F-22 was based on requirements back in the 80's..
The YF-23 did not need the TVC at all.. to achieve similar performance..
What TVC gives is the ability to point your nose faster.. and turn tighter..
however.. the new heatseekers combined with HMS.. have taken all this rapid turning out of the equation... which is why the JSF.. which is based on technology(not capabilities) superior to the F-22... has no need for it..
no longer does a pilot need to look through the HUD to target a fighter..
all he has to do is to look at it.. and shoot.
The other possible advantages of TVC would be maneuvering to avoid a missile..however with the newer crop of missiles capable of 50G+ maneuvers.. even that is irrelevant.
TVC offers immense advantages.. especially in WVR.. and slow speed flight.. it is however.. lost its leap due to newer missiles... almost all new missiles incorporate TVC in some form(apart from the ASRAAM)..
todays close combat.. wont be turning and burning..
in most cases.. 4 vs 4.. would lead to one survivor.. or none perhaps.. not a pretty prospect.
The advantage used to be with who could get their nose to bear on the enemy first.. the MKI will.. till the introduction of the FGFA.. always get its nose to bear first.. but that becomes irrelevant.. when the opposing fighter pilot only has to look at the MKI to shoot at it.
With a TVC equipped missile.. using a dual seeker.. even with IR jamming.. the MKI crew would have to be very lucky to survive.

technology has taken the fun out of air combat..

and the MKM.. along with the Su-35 BM.. also have TVC...

Not sure how much of HMS is useful for turning the missile to the direction.. The only fighter that employs this so far is JSF.. i dont think others cannot.. i feel even Raptor cannot do this.. it has to turn to some angle to fire the missile because JSF is the only fighter which showcased that Missile will be doing the turn not the fighter... so it contradicts some performance explained above with regarding to HMS

 

[John Doe]

Leading to more wear and tear and reduced engine life and smaller MTBO etc.

TVC technology is good for certain scenarios, however surviving 5th gen WVRAAM is not an easy task even for a TVC equipped aircraft.
So all of the above reductions in dependence on other control surfaces are achieved at the cost of putting considerable wear on the engine and having a pretty complex propulsion system with more parts that can break than other conventional engines. While from an RCS reduction standpoint you would be right had this capability been incorporated into a smaller airframe, however the Su-30 is a huge aircraft and the RCS reduction by any means would be marginal.

See, I am not aware that the MKI's engine life is negatively affected by TVC. You may be right, I hope that you will share your information with us.

Now for arguments sale, let say you are 100% right.

Now which part of a jet is routinely replaced? The Engine.

Which part of the airframe is routinely replaced. Nothing?

Why are so many A-5's and Mig 21's being retired? Because of the engine or because of the wear and tear of the airframe?

Therefore, if TVC reduces the life of the engine while saving wear and tear on the airframe, it can only be a good move, no?

 

[SQ8]

Not sure how much of HMS is useful for turning the missile to the direction.. The only fighter that employs this so far is JSF.. i dont think others cannot.. i feel even Raptor cannot do this.. it has to turn to some angle to fire the missile because JSF is the only fighter which showcased that Missile will be doing the turn not the fighter... so it contradicts some performance explained above with regarding to HMS

?????
I honestly have no idea what you just posted..
The JSf turns a missile and the others dont??
I thought the missile turns by itself to the target??..
if perhaps you talk about the missiles seeker..
every missile since the 80's has seekers that are slave-able to the target(can look in its direction)..
and the AA-11's seeker can look where the pilots looks 60 to 70 degrees from boresight(looking straight ahead)..

The JSF will use the Aim-9x.. which is operational on F-15C's today..
a F-15C pilot today can look behind him and shoot.. and the missile will turn around and go back towards the target.
What the JSF did was eliminate the need for a HUD.. which means that it no longer needs to point and shoot at the target.. even its AMRAAMs can be fired at 50 to 60 off boresight... all data that used to be in the HUD is now in the pilots helmet and its Aim-9X's wherever the pilot can look...
The F-22 raptor uses the Aim-9M.. and its pilots do not wear a HMS..
the day the raptor gets the Aim-9x and a HMS.. they will do the same as the JSF, the MKM, the J-11, the F-7PG and every other jet when it comes to targeting of boresight....
All jets equipped with HMS.. can look and shoot at targets not in their 12 o clock using heatseekers.. i.e they dont have to look through their Holographic Display or point their jets nose in the direction of the enemy to shoot.


If one was to take at face value what you are saying.. it would mean that MKi and the UPG.. and MMRCA pilots are being forced to wear useless headgear as a publicity stunt.
you do know what is being talked about right???

 

[kingdurgaking]

?????
I honestly have no idea what you just posted..
The JSf turns a missile and the others dont??
I thought the missile turns by itself to the target??..
if perhaps you talk about the missiles seeker..
every missile since the 80's has seekers that are slave-able to the target(can look in its direction)..
and the AA-11's seeker can look where the pilots looks 60 to 70 degrees from boresight(looking straight ahead)..

The JSF will use the Aim-9x.. which is operational on F-15C's today..
a F-15C pilot today can look behind him and shoot.. and the missile will turn around and go back towards the target.
What the JSF did was eliminate the need for a HUD.. which means that it no longer needs to point and shoot at the target.. even its AMRAAMs can be fired at 50 to 60 off boresight... all data that used to be in the HUD is now in the pilots helmet and its Aim-9X's wherever the pilot can look...
The F-22 raptor uses the Aim-9M.. and its pilots do not wear a HMS..
the day the raptor gets the Aim-9x and a HMS.. they will do the same as the JSF, the MKM, the J-11, the F-7PG and every other jet when it comes to targeting of boresight....
All jets equipped with HMS.. can look and shoot at targets not in their 12 o clock using heatseekers.. i.e they dont have to look through their Holographic Display or point their jets nose in the direction of the enemy to shoot.


If one was to take at face value what you are saying.. it would mean that MKi and the UPG.. and MMRCA pilots are being forced to wear useless headgear as a publicity stunt.
you do know what is being talked about right???

I was actually pointing to the phrase ‘Manoeuvre is irrelevant – let the missiles do the turning!’ which is the phrase of JSF... that was convinced beacause JSF is not much maneuvererable as per there report...
There are two reason
There is a limit to the angle where missile can lock on...
secondly...(i am not sure).. It is not possible to use HMS to rotate 360 degree angle and lock the target... this feature is not there in EFT which gives a 360 degree view but... the only fighter that employ this feature is JSF... Others have to maneuverer little bit here and there and get a lock... thought not such harder as it is used to be...

 

[SQ8]

Nope..
the HMS turns as much as the pilots head turns.. (in case of the JSF.. the pilot can even "see" targets inside his cockpit.. 360 degrees)...

the Aim-9x can target 180 degress off boresight.. i.e.. if a F-15 pilot armed with the Aim-9x.. cranks his head around and sees a target behind his wing.. he can keep flying the same.. and just press the trigger.. the missile will make a maneuver off the rail.. and go for the target .

 

[pakiboi]

keeep it up PAF pilots

 

[rockstarIN]

Nope..
the HMS turns as much as the pilots head turns.. (in case of the JSF.. the pilot can even "see" targets inside his cockpit.. 360 degrees)...

the Aim-9x can target 180 degress off boresight.. i.e.. if a F-15 pilot armed with the Aim-9x.. cranks his head around and sees a target behind his wing.. he can keep flying the same.. and just press the trigger.. the missile will make a maneuver off the rail.. and go for the target .

90 Degree is the maximum as of now..

 

[krash]

90 Degree is the maximum as of now..

Check out 1:30 onwards. Though the missile was fired while it was still in front of the launching aircraft but still pretty impressive.

Also Python-5 is one 180 degree off boresight missile currently in development as are many others.

 

[kingdurgaking]

Nope..
the HMS turns as much as the pilots head turns.. (in case of the JSF.. the pilot can even "see" targets inside his cockpit.. 360 degrees)...

the Aim-9x can target 180 degress off boresight.. i.e.. if a F-15 pilot armed with the Aim-9x.. cranks his head around and sees a target behind his wing.. he can keep flying the same.. and just press the trigger.. the missile will make a maneuver off the rail.. and go for the target .

yes the cranking to 180 is available only in JSF.... And i am not sure all HMS supports this by default.. as per my knowledge there is a limitation...

 

[kingdurgaking]

Check out 1:30 onwards. Though the missile was fired while it was still in front of the launching aircraft but still pretty impressive.

Also Python-5 is one 180 degree off boresight missile currently in development as are many others.

If you see in the video.. the TVC helps in overcoming this situation by providing the escape system in whisker unless the proximity fuse is very strong...