Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Metallurgy and blade design preferably single crystal is the biggest issue for most countries. But most countries have no R and D budgets

Luckily for Turkey, their top bosses and engineers in the military industrial facilities like TAI, TEI, ROKETSAN, ASELSAN, STM, Baykar etc. were educated and trained in the US universities and defense companies! For example TEI boss Prof. Dr. Faruk Aksit* had his PhD in turbo aero engines from the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, and worked in the same field at the GE where he rose up to the executive VP level! Then, he returned to Turkey, and started his academic career at a top Turkish university where he produced a large #of masters and PhD students doing research in the similar fields! Then he joined TEI as it's CEO, and the rest is history....

*The son of a top Turkish Islamic scholar of Fikh and a graduate of a Imam Hatip High School (a modern version of Madrasa, where the religious and physical sciences are taught together). He was badly poisoned a couple of years back, but by HIS MERCY he survived.

 

[Imran Khan]

why this thread is still open ?

 

[[--Leo--]]

Pakistan should develop its own copter and should start developing sub systems and we are not getting T129 before 2025 - 26 PA have to test performance after new engine so we are way behind but drones can cover the gap of helicopter for now

 

[Tornado23]

why this thread is still open ?

For people that have that smidgeon amount of hope left inside them

 

[Imran Khan]

For people that have that smidgeon amount of hope left inside them

i must say they should be awarded most optimistic humans on planet earth then

 

[dBSPL]

The hull of the helicopters produced for Pakistan were shared on social media last year. While this problem was about to be resolved, as far as I can understand, the US negotiations on Afghanistan came into play. These hulls were probably later completed for the TAF.

How could this problem was overcamed? The two countries could form a joint force command and deploy a fleet of T-129s within Pakistani borders. Thus, a stop-gap solution could be created until Pakistan's engine problem of the T-129 is resolved or until it acquires as many attack helicopters as it needs from other alternative manufacturers. The issue here is not Turkey's arms sales but Pakistani army able to get through the process.

Gas turbines of Babur class corvettes are also of USA origin. However, while the Pakistan-MILGEM project continues at full speed without any interruption; The fact that the US has created such a barrier to Pakistan's acquisition of T-129 attack helicopters also suggests that the access of the Pakistani Armed Forces to this system raises some concerns on the US side.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Project died ages ago, Pakistan didn’t lose any money on it, only time. US blocked the engines, Turkey can’t make its own engine in time. Pakistan will buy an alternative, Likely Chinese.

That’s all there is to it, why the continued Discussions going in circles and the frankly unrealistic proposals are continuing, I don’t understand, it’s not that good of a helicopter anyways compared to what else is in market now.

 

[araz]

The hull of the helicopters produced for Pakistan were shared on social media last year. While this problem was about to be resolved, as far as I can understand, the US negotiations on Afghanistan came into play. These hulls were probably later completed for the TAF.

How could this problem was overcamed? The two countries could form a joint force command and deploy a fleet of T-129s within Pakistani borders. Thus, a stop-gap solution could be created until Pakistan's engine problem of the T-129 is resolved or until it acquires as many attack helicopters as it needs from other alternative manufacturers. The issue here is not Turkey's arms sales but Pakistani army able to get through the process.

Gas turbines of Babur class corvettes are also of USA origin. However, while the Pakistan-MILGEM project continues at full speed without any interruption; The fact that the US has created such a barrier to Pakistan's acquisition of T-129 attack helicopters also suggests that the access of the Pakistani Armed Forces to this system raises some concerns on the US side.

The hull production was never in question. The provision of a full fledged system remains the responsibility of the provider not the vendor. So if there is a deficiency it is a problem with the Turkish acquisition of the engines not with PAA.
What had not been understood is that with one masterly stroke the US has dealt a blow to Turkish collaboration with PAA. It seems that the blow was against this collaboratoon as sales of engines to Phillipines was:approved. Iam sure the Turk brothers:will get over this hurdle and although PAA programme has been delayed it has not died completely. What eventuay transpires is difficult to see but I suspect the next Turk PAA deal will:be a lot more robust with local manufacturing/assembly of helos in Pakistan.
A

 

[araz]

Project died ages ago, Pakistan didn’t lose any money on it, only time. US blocked the engines, Turkey can’t make its own engine in time. Pakistan will buy an alternative, Likely Chinese.

That’s all there is to it, why the continued Discussions going in circles and the frankly unrealistic proposals are continuing, I don’t understand, it’s not that good of a helicopter anyways compared to what else is in market now.

If PAA wanted to buy the Chinese helo it would have happened by now. PAA has remained very quiet about its plans and it seems it wants to revisit this issue in future. I think the idea is to use this platform as a launchpad for local assembly of helos in Pakistan. There is a demand but not enough to justify going it alone. As to tech transfer the Chinese appear to be in no mood to share the platform with PAA for local manufacturing. On the other hand the PAA/Turkish project will have enough numbers to justify viability with both sides coming out winners from it. This in my view is the only reason for PAA to want to wait on the progress of the T129/ATAK. The Chinese option will always remain as an off the shelf buy but does not provide PAA with any incentive in the long run to go for it.
This remains my view point but open to correction/viewing an alternative point of view.
The only way we can have a viable helo programme will be to have a baseline platform with military/commercial use and a joint venture with job sharing.
A

 

[Irfan Baloch]

i must say they should be awarded most optimistic humans on planet earth then

I am one of them. hoping the Turks will pull it off and bring a military grade and equally efficient Local engine
OR ..the Americans will s have a change of heart and give waiver to export these copters with their engines to Pakistan.

 

[Akh1112]

If PAA wanted to buy the Chinese helo it would have happened by now. PAA has remained very quiet about its plans and it seems it wants to revisit this issue in future. I think the idea is to use this platform as a launchpad for local assembly of helos in Pakistan. There is a demand but not enough to justify going it alone. As to tech transfer the Chinese appear to be in no mood to share the platform with PAA for local manufacturing. On the other hand the PAA/Turkish project will have enough numbers to justify viability with both sides coming out winners from it. This in my view is the only reason for PAA to want to wait on the progress of the T129/ATAK. The Chinese option will always remain as an off the shelf buy but does not provide PAA with any incentive in the long run to go for it.
This remains my view point but open to correction/viewing an alternative point of view.
The only way we can have a viable helo programme will be to have a baseline platform with military/commercial use and a joint venture with job sharing.
A

But what is there to say this is what they want?

Look, local production is great when youre buying in large numbers, i.e the JF-17, K8, Al-Khalid/VT4.

When in smaller numbers it ends up being more of a headache than a positive, costs start to balloon, it isnt realistic, if we were after, say, 100 units, perhaps its sensible, however, for 20-30 i question the rationale behind ToT. At the end of the day, if PAA ACTUALLY wanted to JV on a project, the Italians want a partner for their heavy attack helo, develop a pak specific variant, problem solved.

 

[Imran Khan]

I am one of them. hoping the Turks will pull it off and bring a military grade and equally efficient Local engine
OR ..the Americans will s have a change of heart and give waiver to export these copters with their engines to Pakistan.

why not amercan just handed over cobras sir ? they will not give us anything and we must move on now .

 

[iLION12345_1]

If PAA wanted to buy the Chinese helo it would have happened by now. PAA has remained very quiet about its plans and it seems it wants to revisit this issue in future. I think the idea is to use this platform as a launchpad for local assembly of helos in Pakistan. There is a demand but not enough to justify going it alone. As to tech transfer the Chinese appear to be in no mood to share the platform with PAA for local manufacturing. On the other hand the PAA/Turkish project will have enough numbers to justify viability with both sides coming out winners from it. This in my view is the only reason for PAA to want to wait on the progress of the T129/ATAK. The Chinese option will always remain as an off the shelf buy but does not provide PAA with any incentive in the long run to go for it.
This remains my view point but open to correction/viewing an alternative point of view.
The only way we can have a viable helo programme will be to have a baseline platform with military/commercial use and a joint venture with job sharing.
A

I highly doubt PA wants any type of local manufacturing given the small numbers, the Chinese Helo is both better and got the same interest as the T-129B. Imo There could have simply been no other reason for PAA to pick T-129B over Z-10M than performance, the Z-10M simply didn’t have the best engine performance, However the ME looks to be better than both it’s predecessor and the T-129B.
PAA also showed zero interest in JV or local manufacturing of T-129B.
The PAA made its interest as clear for Z-10 as it did for T-129, Wether they actually buy it or not is another story.

I am one of them. hoping the Turks will pull it off and bring a military grade and equally efficient Local engine
OR ..the Americans will s have a change of heart and give waiver to export these copters with their engines to Pakistan.

The Turks can pull it off, but it will take 3+ years. If the PAA is willing to wait that long and risk lives in AH-1s and also stay massively unprepared in case a conflict starts in those 3-5 years, then we can Wait for T-129B. In my opinion it’s been too long already. The T-129B will need a capability upgrade by the time PAA can get them in service.

 

[araz]

But what is there to say this is what they want?

Look, local production is great when youre buying in large numbers, i.e the JF-17, K8, Al-Khalid/VT4.

When in smaller numbers it ends up being more of a headache than a positive, costs start to balloon, it isnt realistic, if we were after, say, 100 units, perhaps its sensible, however, for 20-30 i question the rationale behind ToT. At the end of the day, if PAA ACTUALLY wanted to JV on a project, the Italians want a partner for their heavy attack helo, develop a pak specific variant, problem solved.

I understand fully what you are saying. I understand that at best our attack Helo requirement is 60 to 80 units max. I understand that at this rate you will not go for anything with local input. My idea was:
A. For the Turks to share production facilities which would be sensible as our labour costs are much lower as compared to the Turks. So we manufacture some components, perhaps the air frame (or parts of it) for us, the Turks and any other vendors:who want the helo.
B. Use a common platform basis for civilian use which would make enough numbers to make the project worth while.
Is there any evidence of this happening. In short NO. Is it a viable project? I would say keeping our combined needs in mind it would be.
This is the only way we would be able to get things going to establish something locally.
As to the Italians, we will not be able to make enough units on our own for it to be financially viable. This is:why the common needs of Pakistan and Turkey make the deal viable. There is no right or wrong here and a lot of imponderables but at least to me it makes sense.
A

 

[dBSPL]

The hull production was never in question. The provision of a full fledged system remains the responsibility of the provider not the vendor. So if there is a deficiency it is a problem with the Turkish acquisition of the engines not with PAA.
What had not been understood is that with one masterly stroke the US has dealt a blow to Turkish collaboration with PAA. It seems that the blow was against this collaboratoon as sales of engines to Phillipines was:approved. Iam sure the Turk brothers:will get over this hurdle and although PAA programme has been delayed it has not died completely. What eventuay transpires is difficult to see but I suspect the next Turk PAA deal will:be a lot more robust with local manufacturing/assembly of helos in Pakistan.
A

I think we're talking about different things. My question is why did the US specifically choose to undermine PAF attack helicopter program? Well, isn't PAK-TUR cooperation in the navy more strategic?

From the perspective of Pakistan-Turkey defense cooperation, the US Senate seems to have targeted the Land army, not the Pakistan navy. Why?