Pakistan's New F-16 Block 52 vs SU 30 MKI.

[Peshwa]

And This one for your beloved Phalcon.

FT-2000 with Anti radiation Missiles and a range of 200km with the detection range of 350 km. ( I know that you know that we do not have them but it could be wrong who knows?)

Thats definitely a no go......

You dont expect us to take our AWACS into enemy territory to become target practice for the SAMs do you? Defeats the whole purpose of having depth into enemy territory dont you think?.......

Besides, I think Pakistan is yet to possess any long range SAMs in the category of S-300/400...not those that Im aware of anyways....

Offtopic but just wanted to point out.....

 

[ptldM3]

In a BVR fight F-16 Block 52+ with a range of 300kms and SAAB Erie AWACS and AIM-120D will shoot down an SU-30 way before.

The SU-30MKI N011M radar has a rang of atleast 350km...are you sure the F-16 will shoot down the MKI "way before"

But the issue is Pakistan has ordered a AIM-120C variant which has a range of only 105km so Pakistan must buy a D variant or it " could " be on our order already.

R-77 has a range of 175km and the Novator K-100 has a range of 400 km both can pull 12 g's.

AIM-120C has got no IR seekers while R-77 has got both radar homing and IR seekers. Even with if Pakistan does aquire the AIM-120D it will still lack in range.

In a dogfight.

PAF pilots is one of the Most experienced air forces which has used F-16 . Over 30+ years of Pilot experience with Vipers mean something!!

SU-30MKI pilots get about 300 flight hours a year, they're the elite. Moreover, they have trained against the best, American, British, ect.

Su-30 is highly maneuverable but F-16 can beat its TVC advantage by smart electronics and Infrared guided weapons and not to forget JHMCS.

Regards:

I don't know if the SU-30MKI comes with HMC but the SU-30mki has everything else you listed.

 

[Kompromat]

Black blood, I think you're still not getting the picture or you just want to answer my statements with another condradicting one. You're statements don't come as a suprise nore do they actually fill my knowledge.
While I do mantian that Pakistan will indeed purchase ballistic missiles and produce their own artillery units and ammunition. They still can not produce or purchase the vast numbers India can. There is a military gap between the two and both armies are aware of it.
India has more missiles, and will only build more, more than Pakistan.
India has more of everything and will only build more of everything, more than Pakistan.

The SAMs you've listed are SPADA, and FT-2000. I believe that the SPADA is short ranged and the FT-2000 has too many RUSSIAN components. The system itself recieved Russian assistance and this system Pakistan has not recieved and is prone to sanctions even if Pakistan WAS INTERESTED in it.

On top of that the Indian military even doesn't purchase S-300 or relatives anymore because they are too unreliable and costly. The Indian military only purchased a few systems for protection of very important military installations. The rest is medium and short range sams that have a higher kill probability because of their inherent shorter range. Which helps guidence radars to be more accurate at these shorter distances.
They future the Indian military will have longer range SAMS, up to 80 km and they are training their pilots to counter the threat of S-300 SAMS.
So how will the Pakistani side counter Indian military SAMS....? they can't and they won't. They may just aim for the airfields but the sams are too nuemerious. PAF's only reliable aircraft capable of jamming older or newer SAMS is the F-16 and they have too few of them.
The Indian military can counter Pakistani SAMS with MBRL or Missiles. although the MBRL and artillery will be most likily. Anything else can be done with Jags, and Flankers. Both of which exceed in SEAD.
IAF will also hunt and dystroy Pakistani armour clearing the way for for Indian infantry and armour. The T-90/72 doesn't need to be shot at. Leaving the T-90 to deal with bunkers and moving the line forward to Pakistan's rear artillery which with mines would have dystroyed alot of the Indian military tanks.
Alkhalid and T-80 are tanks that are best suited to attack during night with a preamptive attack in mind. During the day, they are fair game for even the basic T-72 since both tanks share the same major flaw.

But this above is just the possibility. They actual action would involve alot more infantry after 2 weeks of war than this. The initial strike will always be airstrikes and artillery as seen in the previous wars. India and Pakistan, have always managed to fight a respectable war, which is largerly different to what the PLA have been use to.

Your point are considerable but unfortunately off topic so i would suggest better open a new thread and i will give you my answer .

If i would do it here there is a huge chance that Moderators will bang us!

 

[Kompromat]

=Peshwa;635705]Thats definitely a no go......

Its good for me if you think this way.

You dont expect us to take our AWACS into enemy territory to become target practice for the SAMs do you? Defeats the whole purpose of having depth into enemy territory dont you think?

Sir you did not get my point , or may be my opinion was not clear beg you a pardon.

Phalcon is believed to have a detection range of 400km , and to have all of that range where would they be operating? Its common sense that they would be operating with in 400 km from Pakistan Indian border inside Indian air space am i right?

Now if we deploy F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B ( Its a new system ) on our border with India what does it means is for 200kms Phaclon cant fly and it would have to fly 200km away from FT-2000 range which means its all 400km detection range is of no use and it can not look into Pakistan or if it can that would be limited to the border areas which would not help , Got my point?

Now look at this.

"There has been speculation that Pakistan acquired an HQ-9 variant called the FT-2000 some years ago as a short-term countermeasure against India’s airborne early warning and control aircraft, but no such missile has been seen in the country, and some sources say the FT-2000 was never actually produced"
Link:ASIAN DEFENCE: Pakistan May Seek Chinese Interceptor Missile Defense by 2012

Besides, I think Pakistan is yet to possess any long range SAMs in the category of S-300/400...not those that Im aware of anyways....

I have answered it and i would not confirm or deny it.

Offtopic but just wanted to point out.....

We also may buy AIM-120's Ground variant which is going to hurt a lot.

Short range SL-AMRAAM.

Regards:

 

[Kompromat]

The SU-30MKI N011M radar has a rang of atleast 350km...are you sure the F-16 will shoot down the MKI "way before"

Sir if you read my post again my humble opinion was about AWACS backed Vipers which brings it to the same range and with a lot more details which can be entered into F-16 Core mission processing computer and it would decide how to shoot the flanker down.
(BTW MKI can be detected from 400kms through AWACS or ground stations due to its bulky size )

R-77 has a range of 175km and the Novator K-100 has a range of 400 km both can pull 12 g's.

Indeed this is an MKI advantage but Let me tell you Russian missiles are not very trust able and F-16's will make sure they are safe , Thanks to their Advanced Electronic countermeasures.

AIM-120C has got no IR seekers while R-77 has got both radar homing and IR seekers. Even with if Pakistan does aquire the AIM-120D it will still lack in range.

* Correction my friend.

AMRAAM uses two-stage guidance when fired at long range. The aircraft passes data to the missile just before launch, giving it information about the location of the target aircraft from the launch point and its direction and speed. The missile uses this information to fly on an interception course to the target using its built in inertial navigation system (INS). This information is generally obtained using the launching aircraft's radar, although it could come from an infrared search and tracking system (IRST), from a data link from another fighter aircraft, or from an AWACS aircraft.

AIM-120D's Range


AIM-120's range is 130 Miles = 209.17km
app ( real range is classified )

SU-30MKI pilots get about 300 flight hours a year, they're the elite. Moreover, they have trained against the best, American, British, ect.

Yes we have a great knowledge of Indian pilots .
I know they train against the best and we tie down our pilots with their beds

Honestly the real flight hours of our " Each " pilot is classified but if even i would tell you what is an estimate , i am sure that would be enough for you to keep quite.

Opppssssssss!
Tail of a soviet SU-25 shot down by Sqn. Ldr. Athar on August 4, 1988.



PAF F-16 Pilot : Sqn. Ldr. Athar Bukhari who shot down Soviet SU-25.

I would not say the number But we are " thought" to be giving our Pilots more training hours than anyone else behind US.

Our Pilots have flown , F-16's , most of the Sukhoi's , Mig-29's , SU-27's , F-15's , F-16E , and possibly by now EF-2000 too and soon will be Rafale eveluated.
Dont ask me where !

BTW we have been training with Americans ( the best air force in the world ) for over a period of 40+ years.

PAF Viper at Anatolian Eagle.


PAF at Bright Star Eygpt.

Dude we practice against/with : USAF , TUAF , RSAF , UAEAF , PLAAF , RJAF and in Anatolian eagle , Indus viper , Saffaron bandit , High mark and more.

I don't know if the SU-30MKI comes with HMC but the SU-30mki has everything else you listed.

JHMS&CS is a greater advantage for Block 52 which literally undermines the TVC of an MKI.

Regards:

 

[Kompromat]

An Afghan/Soviet Su22 shot down by F-16 pilot (Late/Shaheed) Sqn. Ldr. Abdul Hameed Qadari.



A PAF F-16 Pilot Flt. Lt. Khalid Mehmood of No. 14 Squardon (PAF Minhas) shot down 3 Afghan/Soviet fighters (2 MiG-23s and 1 Su-22)



An Afghan Air force MIG-21 stored in Pakistan which was " Forced to Land " by PAF F-16 Pilots.



Regards:

 

[RobbieS]

@Blackblood

I am not qualified to answer on most of the other aspects discussed in this thread, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I did find the following a bit strange-

Now if we deploy F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B ( Its a new system ) on our border with India what does it means is for 200kms Phaclon cant fly and it would have to fly 200km away from FT-2000 range which means its all 400km detection range is of no use and it can not look into Pakistan or if it can that would be limited to the border areas which would not help , Got my point?

So you are saying the F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B have a range of 200km. Am I right?
So if they are at the border and the Phalcon has to avoid it and assuming it keeps a distance of 20-30 km out of the missiles range. Wouldnt it still cover an area of 170-180 kms inside Pakistan? That would mean major cities and bases in Sialkot, Islamabad and Rawalpindi besides Lahore which is the closest. That's still not so bad, is it? In all probability by India's aims, the battle wouldn't probably extend beyond these cities.

 

[Kinshuk]

Your point are considerable but unfortunately off topic so i would suggest better open a new thread and i will give you my answer .

If i would do it here there is a huge chance that Moderators will bang us!

Thank You Sir for staying on the topic. This looks like more of a professionalism.

And everyone is doing the same.

Sorry to interrupt, please continue.

 

[Kinshuk]

But Please do not mention, India and Pakistan both, regarding the piolet superiority.

 

[antartica]

No need to engage F16 with Su-30 .

JF17 is enough to take down Su-30 .

Indians beware one JF17 is equal to 10 Su30's .

 

[Kinshuk]

No need to engage F16 with Su-30 .

JF17 is enough to take down Su-30 .

Indians beware one JF17 is equal to 10 Su30's .

TROLL- IGNORED ,


No need to Reply anyone.

 

[desimorty]

The Su-30MKI have HMS. In close range the F-16 is formidable but only limited by its pilot. For the Falcon to come into close range with the Flanker, wouldn't be wise as the Flanker possess the thrust vectoring, and the HMS and an extra pair of eyes in the cockpit. For the Flanker, there would be no point in going in for WVR combat eithier. Its a much more capable machine that can be used in other areas and to risk itsself for a lone F-16 is not logical either. The Flankers BVR capability comes from its longer reach and heavier punch. Flanker pilots would most definitly would just want to get thier machine home. Although they have trained with the Falcons from singapore and USAF. For the Flanker, it would be wise to leave the Falcon for Falcrums and Bisons which are limited to the Air to air role.

 

[ptldM3]

Sir if you read my post again my humble opinion was about AWACS backed Vipers which brings it to the same range and with a lot more details which can be entered into F-16 Core mission processing computer and it would decide how to shoot the flanker down.
(BTW MKI can be detected from 400kms through AWACS or ground stations due to its bulky size )

Firstly, this thread is about F-16 vs. MKI, not AWACS, but if you want to go there, then India has AWACS too. Is AWACS always an option?

Indeed this is an MKI advantage but Let me tell you Russian missiles are not very trust able and F-16's will make sure they are safe , Thanks to their Advanced Electronic countermeasures.

Not trustable, are we compairing Russian technology from 30 years ago?

Russian missle are not easily fooled by counter measures:

This is in line with the Russian practice of attacking targets by firing pairs of missiles with different homing systems. This complicates end-game defensive actions for the target aircraft, as it needs to successfully defeat two homing systems.

Vympel R-77 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

* Correction my friend.

AMRAAM uses two-stage guidance when fired at long range. The aircraft passes data to the missile just before launch, giving it information about the location of the target aircraft from the launch point and its direction and speed. The missile uses this information to fly on an interception course to the target using its built in inertial navigation system (INS). This information is generally obtained using the launching aircraft's radar, although it could come from an infrared search and tracking system (IRST), from a data link from another fighter aircraft, or from an AWACS aircraft.

Is this AIM-120C, AIM-120D, or something else? Please post your link, so i can see for myself.

AIM-120D's Range


AIM-120's range is 130 Miles = 209.17km
app ( real range is classified )

Again please post a link. My reasearch got me a different estimate:

Formerly known as AIM-120C-8, the AIM-120D has a two-way data link, more accurate navigation using a GPS-enhanced IMU, an expanded no-escape envelope, improved HOBS (High-Angle Off-Boresight) capability, and a 50% increase in range, bring it to the 180 km class. The AIM-120D is a joint US Air Force/US Navy project.

Raytheon (Hughes) AIM-120 AMRAAM - Scramble

That is about the same range as the R-77, but no where near the Novator K-100 range of 400 km. Also the AIM-120D is suppost to have 50% greater range then the standard AIM-120, so 209 km is probably an over estimate.

Anyways if you're not even sure that Pakistan uses the AIM-120D then why are you bringing it into the discussion?

Yes we have a great knowledge of Indian pilots .
I know they train against the best and we tie down our pilots with their beds

Honestly the real flight hours of our " Each " pilot is classified but if even i would tell you what is an estimate , i am sure that would be enough for you to keep quite.

Your opinions won't keep me quiet . 300 hours a years is around what US and Israeli pilots get, can Pakistan afford to blow that kind of money on fuel? For what it's worth a member by the name of X-man calculated PAF flight time to 220 hours a year, of course this is just an estimate, don't take it serious.

Opppssssssss!
Tail of a soviet SU-25 shot down by Sqn. Ldr. Athar on August 4, 1988.

Wow, you shot down a ground attack aircraft, congradulations!

PAF F-16 Pilot : Sqn. Ldr. Athar Bukhari who shot down Soviet SU-25.

Are you trying to prove the superiority of US aircraft? Because Pakistan Mig-21 pilots shot down Israeli pilots flying US and French aircraft. And Russian pilots humiliated American pilots in Korea.

I would not say the number But we are " thought" to be giving our Pilots more training hours than anyone else behind US.

And what about Nato pilots? What about Israeli pilot?

Our Pilots have flown , F-16's , most of the Sukhoi's , Mig-29's , SU-27's , F-15's , F-16E , and possibly by now EF-2000 too and soon will be Rafale eveluated.
Dont ask me where !

You want to provide a link please. Mig-29's did i read that correctly?

BTW we have been training with Americans ( the best air force in the world ) for over a period of 40+ years.

Yes, Pakistan has good pilots, and you did very well against the Indians. However, times change. Now Indians pilots are getting the flight time and training against the best.

JHMS&CS is a greater advantage for Block 52 which literally undermines the TVC of an MKI.

Regards:

I guess the MKI has HMS too if (i'm wrong correct me):

OLS-30 laser-optical locator system to include a day and night FLIR capability and is used in conjunction with the helmet mounted sighting system

Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HMC would not undermine TVC, the MKI would still be in control, the F-16 pilot would have his hands full trying to shake the MKI off his ***, and if the F-16 and MKI get into a vertical scissors, for example, then the F-16 pilot might as well eject.

 

[Kompromat]

@Blackblood

I am not qualified to answer on most of the other aspects discussed in this thread, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I did find the following a bit strange-

Now if we deploy F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B ( Its a new system ) on our border with India what does it means is for 200kms Phaclon cant fly and it would have to fly 200km away from FT-2000 range which means its all 400km detection range is of no use and it can not look into Pakistan or if it can that would be limited to the border areas which would not help , Got my point?

So you are saying the F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B have a range of 200km. Am I right?
So if they are at the border and the Phalcon has to avoid it and assuming it keeps a distance of 20-30 km out of the missiles range. Wouldnt it still cover an area of 170-180 kms inside Pakistan? That would mean major cities and bases in Sialkot, Islamabad and Rawalpindi besides Lahore which is the closest. That's still not so bad, is it? In all probability by India's aims, the battle wouldn't probably extend beyond these cities.

Good question!

You are Talking about Flying away from FT-2000's 200km (as
assumed) Range?

ok lets analyze.

Total range of Phalcon approximate 400kms Radius .

Effective Range of FT-2000 = 200 Kms

Detection range of FT-2000 = 350kms

Phalcon's Effective Detection Range when flying away from FT-2000's Range : 400-220 = 180 kms.

So tell me why have you spent 1.1 Billion dollars for such a system which can only Detect and Track for only 180 kms??
And you only would have 3 of them so it is a huge risk and wastage of money you have spent .

Another risk for Indian Ground Radar stations stands out as Pakistan bought Brazilian MAR-1 ARM's.

And another " Huge threat to Ground Radar Stations "

RA'AD ALCM.

This "Stealth " Cruise missile would most likely be used for precision air strikes on enemy command centres, radars, surface to air missile launchers, ballistic missile launchers and stationary warships.

Operational range 350 km
Speed Subsonic
Guidance system INS, TERCOM, DSMAC, GPS, COMPASS
Launch platform Combat aircraft
Warhead Conventional HE or Nuclear



Regards:

 

[Kompromat]

Thank You Sir for staying on the topic. This looks like more of a professionalism.

And everyone is doing the same.

Sorry to interrupt, please continue.

Its a thread about hardware so i would not include Pilots but to a small extent because it is not the machine that flies its the man behind him.

I am enjoying talk with ptldm3.

I am leaving the discussion till tomorrow ....Goodbye