Pakistans Nuclear Arsenal ?? A Handicap OR Strength

[Jungibaaz]

At another forum, I dug up some articles from PDF while debating why we carried out the tests in 1998.
I conclude that we conducted them after uncalled for tests by India and reactions that came from Indian public, media and leaders.

So this from an old post of mine...

Do you remember after India acquired nukes, the kind of threats that came from India? It's stance towards Pakistan completely changed.

Aside from the celebrations in India and the 'middle-finger' to your enemies that goes with it, some sections of your media were not too 'friendly' to Pakistan, nor were the people on the streets celebrating.

On a more official level, Mr L. K. Advani the pro-nuclear Indian home minister made statements showing India's intention to cross the Line of Control in Kashmir under the pretext of 'hot pursuit'.

If that was not enough... These statements were supported and often repeated by Indian-occupied Kashmir's chief minister Dr Farooq Abdullah. The Indian Corps Commander in Kashmir Lt. Gen Kishan Pal addressed an unprecedented news conference to advocate his plans of attacking Azad Kashmir territory across the Line of Control. Again we can't just assume that this wasn't approved by some folks in New Delhi, can't say it was either.

If this wasn't enough, there was a confirmed report by the Pakistan Army intel that India had moved an extra infantry division. People who served at the time say that the Indian army was seen to dump artillery and other ammunition into forward locations.

Of course I strongly believe that there wouldn't have been a war, but for sure Indian Armed forces' morale was sky high, they felt powerful, superior and somewhat untouchable. Skirmishes could have led from one thing to another. Pakistan then had to test, but Pakistan too couldn't test until India did, we had the ability to do so many years prior to the actual test, but obviously we need to have the right conditions for us to test and a damn good reason to do so.

and we have that!

However. And this is the part where I'd like you to enlighten me (I usually try to be as neutral as a can, sometimes be a bit reasonable about Pakistan and remembering never to underestimate or misunderstand our adversary)....

What reason did India have to test nukes?

There was no threat to India from her much smaller neighbours, Pakistan possibly the only small neighbour out of the lto that coul cause any trouble at all, BUT there had been no change on the borders, no skirmishes, not even as much as a cold stare. Bangladesh, Lanka, Nepal? Nopes.

Now this is where you'd be thinking... China!
But the PLA's army Chief had visited India and there was an agreement for mutual reduction of troops along their common border.


Furthermore, by carrying out the nukes tests India demolished any defense parity in the region.
Since there were no visible ballistic missiles in the sub continent, there was an undeclared mutual capability for decades.
In 1998, this was all gone, India immediately emerged seeming like a superpower who could annihilate Pakistan at the push of a button. Remember that the activity along the border 27 years was oh so quiet compared to that of the 24 years following 1947's troubles.

So to sum up my argument...

India IMO had no reason to test the nukes, also it was done at a time where the tests seemed out of the blue and left Pakistan and it's citizens feeling rather vulnerable. Secondly, the response for the nuke test by some Indian ministers, media and general public were none too re-assuring to say the least. Then the intel reports on Indian activity and the sudden change towards it's stance on Pakistan.

We were right to test at the time.
Sanctions where there already, yes, they were made worse.
But folks lets not forget, sanctions did hurt, we lost an entire decade.

However, had we have not tested, India would have went to war with us in 98', and the US would play much worse in Afghanistan today.

 

[notorious_eagle]

India had the numbers but never hadtheinfrastructure to field them in the western border at once. We could never bring the majority of the military against Pakistan..only the corps already based in the west. PA was thus always an offensive force which even had the military capability to take Kashmir till the 60s and still make more than tactical offensives in Indian territory till a couple of decades back.

Today all that has changed. But notorious don't try to say that Pakistan army was ALWAYS a defensive force. That is a white lie

It appears that you are equating PA on the same level as Wehrmacht or the Red Army. PA Strike Corps indeed had the bite, they could take the fight to the Indian border but never had the resources nor logistical supply to sustain any thrust and hold on to the captured territory. Even today, PA Strike Divisions can take the fight inside Indian borders and capture Indian territory. But the problem is, they are likely to get roosted as the IA reinforce their positions and launch a counter attack, and constant enemy bombardment from air and artillery will not make things easy. PA will never constrain itself by augmenting to a strict doctrine, they will conduct a SWOT analysis and than proceed whether its defensive or offensive. PA is well aware of the fact that it can never compete with India. The budget of Indian Armed Forces exceeds the entire budget of Pakistan, thus it never is or was a competition. At best, PA in the past and present can fight area dominance battles but never strategic dominance battles due to our limited resources.

 

[arp2041]

We have enough nukes to turn India into a radioactive rubbish dump. Its, time to build our economy, provide education to our population, create jobs and industries.

These sort of comments doesn't SUIT a moderator, you are sounding a Zaid Hamid here. And what do you think India will be doing when Pakistan will be busy nuking the hell out of India??? Will India be waiting patiently just to see it's cities getting wiped out of the face of Earth one after another??? Boasting about one's nuclear capability is not a good IDEA when your adversary has them in equal (if not more) amount & has better capability to cause much more damage (nuclear triad).

Just 2 bombs were suffice 67 years ago to wipe two big cities of Japan from the face of Earth, the nuclear weapons capability have certainly increased manifold over the time, so now even one bomb either from India or Pakistan is enough to bring catastrophe on one of the countries & start the bloodiest chain reaction ever happened in the history of Earth. Nuclear war will not be in THE interest of anyone - Pakistan/India/world/Humanity.

This sort of aggressive posture is not at all helping in bringing PEACE b/w the two countries.

As for your sane advice on Pakistan building economy rather than nukes, i don't think your govt. is following this path:

Pakistan has world's fastest-growing nuclear stockpile: Experts - Economic Times

 

[genmirajborgza786]

@notorious_eagle

India is not 7 times bigger then Pakistan in fact India is only 3.6 times bigger !

link

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...es-ahead-india-usa-report-25.html#post3822126

 

[Storm Force]

A WORD OF ADVICE FOR ALL TRIGGAR HAPPY POSTERS.

A lot of you talk about parity in WEAPONS including nuclear.

UNFORTUNATELY this is not the PARITY you people need OR DESIRE.

TO have real parity YOU NEED to match INDIAN economic might, which in turn gives you military might ,,, WHICH LEADS TO massive political MIGHT/CLOUT

YOUR nukes have brought you nothing from these KEY AREAS.

ECONOMICALLY Pakistan is weak.
Conventional military power is weak espically in the air & and sea
Politically you have no voice loud enough to make nations listen (importantpowerful nations)

VERY SIMILAR TO THE NORTH/SOUTH KOREA situation imo.

i find it strange that you better educated pakistanis are BLIND to these major weaknesses.

YOUR NUKES have got you nothing. YOU HAVE HAD NUKES SINCE 1999 and ever since you have decsended into a downward spiral of internal war/ diplomatic isolation espcially the WEST. and no movement by INDIA to open dialogue.

THE INDIAN GOVT just wont budge

 

[tarrar]

PDF Admin’s should not allow such baseless & brainless people to start these kind of posts, which are only started to target Pakistan always.

Pak Nukes are Pakistan’s strength not handicap, GOD forbid if Pakistan did not had Nukes then the enemies of Pakistan would had attacked Pakistan.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Real strength of a nation is its people

And their economic condition.



When you hold a Samsung phone, watch an LG TV, or drive Hyundai car, you have to accept that South Korea and its people have made it. they are strong, and confident.

But do they sing songs like bumba bumba bumb, bolo subha shaam, Haray Qadeer, Haay bumb

Heck no. they don't have no fing bomb. They are the a power in the world without one.

OK. Japan. Now tell us if they are not strong. Do they have bumba bumba bum bum?


North Korea the poverty stricken pit of hell country. They do have bumba bumba bum bum. But then majority of them are living like a bum too.


So I hope by such comparison you all can see that nuclear bomb is no strength in itself.

It is just a small part of a much larger system for a country.

And it should not be considered as the "go to" weapon.

It is the "very last last last last last last resort" weapon.


If 2-bit Mullahs can attack and destroy our key bases in Karachi, Islamabad etc.

then what kind of strength are we talking about nuki toy or not, our forces and more importantly our society appears to be just a bunch of Islamist nincompoops who can't even protect their few bases let alone the whole fing country.

So now you all understand that

Pakistani nukie toys are neither a handicap nor a strength.

Strength of nations should be looked at other factors and not some pesky bumba bumba bomb bombs.


peace

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

There are 3 different threads strarted bt People celebrating Pakistanis NUCLEAR weapons success.

Some claim nuclear advantage over India ONE even states NUCLEAR advantage over UK.

it seems people FEEL this is some HUGE achievement which has GIVEN PAKISTAN great clout and strength globally.

I ASK THE QUESTION has it made any difference to the PAKISTAN of the 1960S ???

1. Is pakistan considered a more important nation now
2. Does it carry more clout especially in islamic world
3. will it bring india into negotation table
4. HAS IT MADE more countries want to trade with you

I SAY THIS BECAUSE i think the opposite has happened . I think the pakistan without nukes was a far stronger nation

1. Not isolated has they seem now esp from the WEST
2. Stronger econmoically
3. Far more FDI
4. usa ALLY
5. Conventional superior weapons than INDIA


i think nuclear weapons as brought you as much as nukes have brought NORTH KOREA

IE A ISolated and unpredictable state which the GLOBAL FAMILY fears could lead to allsorts of caos..

WORRYING THING IS PAKISTANIS cant see his themselves !!!!!!!!!

simple answer , we feel more safe now , a country like yours will think thousand time before attacking us .... atleast no full scale war .........

Real strength of a nation is its people

And their economic condition.



When you hold a Samsung phone, watch an LG TV, or drive Hyundai car, you have to accept that South Korea and its people have made it. they are strong, and confident.

But do they sing songs like bumba bumba bumb, bolo subha shaam, Haray Qadeer, Haay bumb

Heck no. they don't have no fing bomb. They are the a power in the world without one.

OK. Japan. Now tell us if they are not strong. Do they have bumba bumba bum bum?


North Korea the poverty stricken pit of hell country. They do have bumba bumba bum bum. But then majority of them are living like a bum too.


So I hope by such comparison you all can see that nuclear bomb is no strength in itself.

It is just a small part of a much larger system for a country.

And it should not be considered as the "go to" weapon.

It is the "very last last last last last last resort" weapon.


If 2-bit Mullahs can attack and destroy our key bases in Karachi, Islamabad etc.

then what kind of strength are we talking about nuki toy or not, our forces and more importantly our society appears to be just a bunch of Islamist nincompoops who can't even protect their few bases let alone the whole fing country.

So now you all understand that

Pakistani nukie toys are neither a handicap nor a strength.

Strength of nations should be looked at other factors and not some pesky bumba bumba bomb bombs.


peace

dear our economic failure is because of our political unstability and changing economic polices , neglection agricultural and power sector .................
south korea and japan have US on their back ... whom we have , who will counter threats being faced by us .... who came to help us in 1971 ?

 

[Contrarian]

It appears that you are equating PA on the same level as Wehrmacht or the Red Army. PA Strike Corps indeed had the bite, they could take the fight to the Indian border but never had the resources nor logistical supply to sustain any thrust and hold on to the captured territory. Even today, PA Strike Divisions can take the fight inside Indian borders and capture Indian territory. But the problem is, they are likely to get roosted as the IA reinforce their positions and launch a counter attack, and constant enemy bombardment from air and artillery will not make things easy. PA will never constrain itself by augmenting to a strict doctrine, they will conduct a SWOT analysis and than proceed whether its defensive or offensive. PA is well aware of the fact that it can never compete with India. The budget of Indian Armed Forces exceeds the entire budget of Pakistan, thus it never is or was a competition. At best, PA in the past and present can fight area dominance battles but never strategic dominance battles due to our limited resources.

The ability that PA had in the past to capture and hold areas in Indian territory -of a limited scale, no longer exists today as such. They had the ability to have area dominance inside limited areas in India. Today that ability is restricted to Pakistani territory , holding back or beating back Indian offensive in some regions.

So there has been a slow but constant tip in the scale of forces in India's favour over 2 decades.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

There are 3 different threads strarted bt People celebrating Pakistanis NUCLEAR weapons success.

Some claim nuclear advantage over India ONE even states NUCLEAR advantage over UK.

it seems people FEEL this is some HUGE achievement which has GIVEN PAKISTAN great clout and strength globally.

I ASK THE QUESTION has it made any difference to the PAKISTAN of the 1960S ???

1. Is pakistan considered a more important nation now
2. Does it carry more clout especially in islamic world
3. will it bring india into negotation table
4. HAS IT MADE more countries want to trade with you

I SAY THIS BECAUSE i think the opposite has happened . I think the pakistan without nukes was a far stronger nation

1. Not isolated has they seem now esp from the WEST
2. Stronger econmoically
3. Far more FDI
4. usa ALLY
5. Conventional superior weapons than INDIA


i think nuclear weapons as brought you as much as nukes have brought NORTH KOREA

IE A ISolated and unpredictable state which the GLOBAL FAMILY fears could lead to allsorts of caos..

WORRYING THING IS PAKISTANIS cant see his themselves !!!!!!!!!

LOL look who has opened this thread. An enemy Country's citizen. Whose own nation is soooooooooo scared of these nukes itself

And now a guy of the same enemy country is bothered with Pakistan having nukes n then when on to say that ''he thinks Pak was far stronger nation with out them.''

Height of fake sympathy n Concern.

The ability that PA had in the past to capture and hold areas in Indian territory -of a limited scale, no longer exists today as such. They had the ability to have area dominance inside limited areas in India. Today that ability is restricted to Pakistani territory , holding back or beating back Indian offensive in some regions.

So there has been a slow but constant tip in the scale of forces in India's favour over 2 decades.

Yeah

And in the other hand india is sooo powerfull that it can now Beat the likes of US,China.

stop living in yr cave mentality.

 

[MilSpec]

We have enough nukes to turn India into a radioactive rubbish dump. Its, time to build our economy, provide education to our population, create jobs and industries.

Nopes .. i think you guys should atleast have close to thousand... When you do attack ensure every inch of India is obliterated... Also lob a few in the ocean to hit submarines if any... Happy ??

 

[karan21]

Why no Pakistani commenting on this thread. They went ballestic on K15 launch and anti tank missile thread.

 

[Gentelman]

Why no Pakistani commenting on this thread. They went ballestic on K15 launch and anti tank missile thread.

wt do ya mean??
well i can sense troll winds are blowing here...:crazy_pilot5:

 

[Umair Nawaz]

The only person who can do that is Sunny Deol, but i don't think he has any sympathies with the TTP, I would definitely agree with Aeronaut here, 'Ignorance is a Bliss'.

u forgot their new face savior called Rajnikaant

 

[satishkumarcsc]

u forgot their new face savior called Rajnikaant

Dude he is there before Amitaabh Bachan was even introduced in bOLLYWOOD.

BTW I just read this a day back.

North’s missiles tied to Musharraf blunder | News | The Japan Times