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Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

Does anybody know what the outcome of the senate debate on U214s was? Secondly, what is the current status with regards to PN ordering U214s. Are we still likely to hear about it at IDEAS 2008 or not? If there is a financial crunch and we are unable to order it, is there any plan to build further Agossta 90Bs?
Thanks in advance
WaSalam
Araz
 
Does anybody know what the outcome of the senate debate on U214s was? Secondly, what is the current status with regards to PN ordering U214s. Are we still likely to hear about it at IDEAS 2008 or not? If there is a financial crunch and we are unable to order it, is there any plan to build further Agossta 90Bs?
Thanks in advance
WaSalam
Araz

Sorry, no information on the Senate debate but on the other side it appears that TKMS is awaiting the status and requirements of the IN tender through back channels before making a bid for the PN tender-of which no RFP has been yet issued, making it very difficult for TKMS to make a move.

Furthermore the Indians and Israelis are putting a lot of pressure on the German Gov not to approve the sale so don't expect any sale at IDEAS 08 although funds are not really a problem as they can be diverted from less pressing priorities. I agree it would be a good idea to place orders for 1-2 Agostas to keep Karachi busy until the tender is finalised to keep total fleet strength at 7-8.
 
Regardless of the U214 deal, also recognize that the Chinese are increasingly acquiring German shipbuilding technology - namely propulsion - for their own usage. China's next generation AIP-SSK is presently under development...being a 4500-ton design, it could even be the basis for a new set of SSNs.
 
Still i would go for French Marine Expertise...

Go for DCN.

The whole industrial base, TRADOC and support infrastructure is in place so it would be unusual not to progress to the next level of French designs.

That said, comparing French offerings with what is out there in the market, the Scorpene and the proposed Marlin do not exhibit a clear technological lead in any parameter over the others. In Pakistan's case, only France is willing to offer such a product for such a price....
 
The french option should be availed for 2 reasons.
1) We already have the infrastructure to handle the French technology
2) France is a more reliable arms supplier after china then any other including the US.
 
Regardless of the U214 deal, also recognize that the Chinese are increasingly acquiring German shipbuilding technology - namely propulsion - for their own usage. China's next generation AIP-SSK is presently under development...being a 4500-ton design, it could even be the basis for a new set of SSNs.

I'll believe it when I hear of it.

So far there have been no indications of a Type 041 'Yuan' follow on-all indications are that the next generation will be incremental spiral blocks of the baseline 041 design.

Please explain what you mean by the SSN comment or is it speculation?
 
will some one , tell me,
if U214 deal approve, this will be with transfer of technology or just sale.
and one thing more, can we say now, U214 is better then Agossta ?


plz with detail.
waiting.

What exactly do you mean by "better"?

Cost, technology, design....?

It doesn't take a genius to decipher that the newer plaform is much more advanced in all relevant design and technical parameters.

The Agosta is one whole generation behind contemporary Western designs so the point is moot. A more relevant comparison would be between the U214 and the Scorpene and its French and Spanish evolutions.
 
Not much difference in anything if you compare Scorpene, U-209 and Agosta 90B.

Remember that Agosta 90B with MESMA AIP is better than U-209 with IN and Scorpene without Mesma AIP.

If DCN was willing to built a new sub for PN by incorporating some features from its known SSN (Baracudda) PN should not have given second thought for U-214.

U-214 Comparisons with DCN Designs have been made several times in other threads.

For me PN has Agosta 90B and going for Scorpene is rather a Name change then technology. Scorpene, U-214 and Agosta 90B can be compared in all aspects.

U-214 has its advantages but in our case with our Infrustructure built around Agosta they are not favorable. One with the knowledge of Infrustructure should understand that. MESMA is a better choice in alot of aspects then Fuel Cells thou Fuel Cells are Better but have handing issues.

DCN and PN should be the order of the coming year.
 
Not much difference in anything if you compare Scorpene, U-209 and Agosta 90B.

Remember that Agosta 90B with MESMA AIP is better than U-209 with IN and Scorpene without Mesma AIP.

Care to provide evidence in support of your claims?

Due to Pakistan's lack of strategic depth and ports (Karachi+Gwadar) AIP for the IN is simply not necessary for their Scorpenes which will be based on their Western coast. The sole purpose of an AIP system is to prolong the submersion length of an ssk before snorkeling and in regards to your second point the Scorpenes may be easily fitted with an MESMA system within a month should the IN wish due owing to the modular design.

The 209s and baseline Agostas are of the same design generation (70's) while the 90Bs incorporate lessons gained from the baseline design and is a baseline design modified with leading technology in sensor fit of the time (late 80's). The design heritage of the Scorpene stems from the Rubis SSN and is externally similar as well as sharing the same sensor fit (upgraded baseline DMUX 20 combat system, modified DRUA sonar with feedback capability....etc) as well as being vastly hydrodynamically superior to the 70's designs. In effect the Scorpene is two and a half decades ahead on the technology spiral so the belief that there is no difference cannot be further from the truth.

In addition when a customer orders an ssk it usually requests specific fit to fit the mission profile. From personal experience the IN is a very fussy end user due to the elite nature of their UWC squadrons so their Scorpenes will be fitted with certain customised quipment such as a unnamed Israeli EW suite from either Elbit or IAI giving it a considerable edge over the standard French hardware found in the 90Bs. I caution you against claiming one sub arm is 'better" than another without informed knowledge. The Indian undersea arm is rated by most to have capabilities second only to the JMSDF in Asia.

If DCN was willing to built a new sub for PN by incorporating some features from its known SSN (Baracudda) PN should not have given second thought for U-214.

Nobody builds subs for others. A design is drawn up and standardised then the marketing begins. The reason the PN decided to go for the U214 is still unclear at this stage we in the Australian UDT community (and the Americans, Israelis and Indians) believe it has something to do with modifications to suit Babur integration-which is why the Indians and Israelis are putting pressure on the German gov to veto any sale. Also because the U214 is such an excellent design in key parameters.

U-214 Comparisons with DCN Designs have been made several times in other threads.

Those comparisons are so childish at times that they are completely irrelevant. Just because Platform X has a greater numerical value in this aspect, say diving depth, than Platform Y then it is superior or "better"?

Undersea warfare between subs is a like a knife fight in the dark with the one possessing greater sensory awareness and "stealth" prevailing. Without going into specifics the U214 is comparable with the the Scorpene and possibly Scorp evolutions in terms of acoustic signature management. Far superior to the acoustic sig man fitted to the Agostas which are roughly comparable to IN 877 pre-reft Kilos. The Marlin is largely unknown in terms of all the above but as a platform incorporting advances from the Barracuda program as the Scorpene did with the Rubis then I would expect it to match the U214.

U-214 has its advantages but in our case with our Infrustructure built around Agosta they are not favorable. One with the knowledge of Infrustructure should understand that. MESMA is a better choice in alot of aspects then Fuel Cells thou Fuel Cells are Better but have handing issues.

No, in trials conducted with all Western AIP systems for the RAN the MESMA came in dead last. But for countries traditionally French in their purchases what other choice do you have?

DCN and PN should be the order of the coming year.

You got that one right.
 
Sorry, no information on the Senate debate but on the other side it appears that TKMS is awaiting the status and requirements of the IN tender through back channels before making a bid for the PN tender-of which no RFP has been yet issued, making it very difficult for TKMS to make a move.

Furthermore the Indians and Israelis are putting a lot of pressure on the German Gov not to approve the sale so don't expect any sale at IDEAS 08 although funds are not really a problem as they can be diverted from less pressing priorities. I agree it would be a good idea to place orders for 1-2 Agostas to keep Karachi busy until the tender is finalised to keep total fleet strength at 7-8.

i think the germans want this tender and will ignore indian and israeli pressures (news to me). the bundestag (or whatever its called) has already given the green light for this business.
 
i think the germans want this tender and will ignore indian and israeli pressures (news to me). the bundestag (or whatever its called) has already given the green light for this business.

Provide a link please!!!
 
i think the germans want this tender and will ignore indian and israeli pressures (news to me). the bundestag (or whatever its called) has already given the green light for this business.

In order for a response to a RFP made by the customer, a proposed sale must comply with German law (made by the Bundestag) and then the National Security Council made up of the German executive so the 'green light' is actually just a stop sign.

Now the deal is currently stalled in the Pakistani Senate with no RFP in sight for the next year or so. Without even an RFP TKMS cannot do anything even if they wanted to as I have mentioned earlier and the NSC will almost certainly kill the deal given the right amount of leverage by India, Israel and other countries. What I mean by leverage are arms sales. India will be the world's largest importer of arms beginning next year and no country especially Germany wants to lose on market share while in contrast Pakistan has procured enough arms in the past 'lost' decade that can be counted by using your fingers. Just this year a Indo-German MoU was signed regarding arms transfers and U214s were at the top of the list for 'discussion'. The Germans wouldn't dare annoy the Indians given the amount of sales to be made.

It's not hard to realise that while bidding for the 3 boat PN tender (assuming it materialises soon given the change of government and Senate review) might be attractive, the 6 boat Indian tender upcoming this year will be even more attractive in terms of $$$ with support and maintenance for the boats' useful life....the IN after all has traditionally operated German designs. The French on the other hand have no such caveats which is about all there is to it.
 
In order for a response to a RFP made by the customer, a proposed sale must comply with German law (made by the Bundestag) and then the National Security Council made up of the German executive so the 'green light' is actually just a stop sign.

Now the deal is currently stalled in the Pakistani Senate with no RFP in sight for the next year or so. Without even an RFP TKMS cannot do anything even if they wanted to as I have mentioned earlier and the NSC will almost certainly kill the deal given the right amount of leverage by India, Israel and other countries. What I mean by leverage are arms sales. India will be the world's largest importer of arms beginning next year and no country especially Germany wants to lose on market share while in contrast Pakistan has procured enough arms in the past 'lost' decade that can be counted by using your fingers. Just this year a Indo-German MoU was signed regarding arms transfers and U214s were at the top of the list for 'discussion'. The Germans wouldn't dare annoy the Indians given the amount of sales to be made.

It's not hard to realise that while bidding for the 3 boat PN tender (assuming it materialises soon given the change of government and Senate review) might be attractive, the 6 boat Indian tender upcoming this year will be even more attractive in terms of $$$ with support and maintenance for the boats' useful life....the IN after all has traditionally operated German designs. The French on the other hand have no such caveats which is about all there is to it.

i guess u must have real inside information for being so self-assured about the outcome.
 
i guess u must have real inside information for being so self-assured about the outcome.

It's my job to be informed.

All I have told you is OSINT. No "insider information" whatsoever on public forums. My insight into this may be wrong but given all the indications that I have listed I am rarely wrong on situations such as these.
 

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