Proposal to get 56 transport planes cleared: Jaitley

[Rahul9090]

New Delhi:A proposal to procure 56 transport aircraft as replacement for AVRO aircraft through ‘Buy & Make’ route has been accorded approval by the Defence Acquisition Council, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley told the Lok Sabha today.

Forty of these aircraft will be manufactured in India by an Indian production agency from the private sector and the agency will be chosen by the original equipment manufacturer (OEM), he said in reply to a question.

http://s1.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/ArunJaitley380PTI2.jpg

The Council had taken the decision in a meeting on 23 July 2012.

The bid submission date has been extended up to 28 August this year, he said.

In another reply, he said the government is aware of Chinese participation in Indian Ocean Region (IOR) in development projects like ports as well as in anti-piracy operations and deep sea mining.

Government keeps a constant watch on all developments concerning national security and economic interests and takes necessary measures to safeguard them, in accordance with the prevailing security situation and strategic considerations, he said.


Proposal to get 56 transport planes cleared: Jaitley

 

[Abingdonboy]

New Delhi:A proposal to procure 56 transport aircraft as replacement for AVRO aircraft through ‘Buy & Make’ route has been accorded approval by the Defence Acquisition Council, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley told the Lok Sabha today.

Forty of these aircraft will be manufactured in India by an Indian production agency from the private sector and the agency will be chosen by the original equipment manufacturer (OEM), he said in reply to a question.



The Council had taken the decision in a meeting on 23 July 2012.

The bid submission date has been extended up to 28 August this year, he said.

In another reply, he said the government is aware of Chinese participation in Indian Ocean Region (IOR) in development projects like ports as well as in anti-piracy operations and deep sea mining.

Government keeps a constant watch on all developments concerning national security and economic interests and takes necessary measures to safeguard them, in accordance with the prevailing security situation and strategic considerations, he said.

C-27J likely to win but my personal wish would be to see 56 C-130XJ (the proposed cheaper C-130 version) with TATA already in a tie in with Lockhead Martin to produce parts for the C-130J it would be great to see this partnership expanded to full production level. In that case LM would set up full MRO facilities in India that would service the Indian fleet not to mention other Herc operated in the region (LM has said the minimum number of Hercs in Indian service for them to create such infrastructure in India would be 18) then the likelihood of the SC-130J for the IN would increase not to mention some Hercs for the ICG.

 

[IndoUS]

C-27J likely to win but my personal wish would be to see 56 C-130XJ (the proposed cheaper C-130 version) with TATA already in a tie in with Lockhead Martin to produce parts for the C-130J it would be great to see this partnership expanded to full production level. In that case LM would set up full MRO facilities in India that would service the Indian fleet not to mention other Herc operated in the region (LM has said the minimum number of Hercs in Indian service for them to create such infrastructure in India would be 18) then the likelihood of the SC-130J for the IN would increase not to mention some Hercs for the ICG.

US coast guard already uses the c-130 in numbers so Goes saying that it has great potential with the navy and coast guard.

 

[ANPP]

C-27J likely to win but my personal wish would be to see 56 C-130XJ (the proposed cheaper C-130 version) with TATA already in a tie in with Lockhead Martin to produce parts for the C-130J it would be great to see this partnership expanded to full production level. In that case LM would set up full MRO facilities in India that would service the Indian fleet not to mention other Herc operated in the region (LM has said the minimum number of Hercs in Indian service for them to create such infrastructure in India would be 18) then the likelihood of the SC-130J for the IN would increase not to mention some Hercs for the ICG.

Isn't c130 too much big requirment..........

 

[Abingdonboy]

US coast guard already uses the c-130 in numbers so Goes saying that it has great potential with the navy and coast guard.

Exactly, AFAIK LM have already briefed the ICG on the C-130J for both patrol and transport usage by the ICG whilst LM has launched the SC-130J and stated one of their main targets is the the IN's MR-MPA competition (will probably go to the P-8I "lite" though). The BSF have apparently shown interest too...


One large order for the MHA (CAPFs), ICG, IAF and IN would be preferred (to optimise delivery timelines and negate the risk of cost escalations).

Isn't c130 too much big requirment..........

How do you mean? In terms of the size of the C-130 or cost?

 

[IndoUS]

Isn't c130 too much big requirment..........

Yes but it will make a single platform rather than operating three different one. It would ease our operating costs and bring similarity between different wings of the military.

 

[sancho]

C-27J likely to win but my personal wish would be to see 56 C-130XJ (the proposed cheaper C-130 version) with TATA already in a tie in with Lockhead Martin to produce parts for the C-130J it would be great to see this partnership expanded to full production level. In that case LM would set up full MRO facilities in India that would service the Indian fleet not to mention other Herc operated in the region (LM has said the minimum number of Hercs in Indian service for them to create such infrastructure in India would be 18) then the likelihood of the SC-130J for the IN would increase not to mention some Hercs for the ICG.

The C130 is not a contender in this competition and the XJ is a less capable J, therefore only more cost-effective because less capable. IAF would simply order more MTAs' if they would think the Avro replacement should be a 20t class aircraft, which it obviously don't want.
The MTA also is the main reason that will speak against the C27J, since the latter is aimed at similar capabilities in cargo hold, short take off and landings and rough airstrips, which also will increase operational costs, one reason the US want to get rid if their C27Js. Just as the Avro replacement has no tactical aim, but is mainly used for cost-effective utility transports.
The C295 on the other side would offer a good hi lo combo with the MTA, complementing eachother at cost and capability and it's the only platform that offers already operational versions for IAF's, BSF's, IN's and ICG's requirements.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The MTA also is the main reason that will speak against the C27J, since the latter is aimed at similar capabilities in cargo hold, short take off and landings and rough airstrips, which also will increase operational costs, one reason the US want to get rid if their C27Js. Just as the Avro replacement has no tactical aim, but is mainly used for cost-effective utility transports.
The C295 on the other side would offer a good hi lo combo with the MTA, complementing eachother at cost and capability and it's the only platform that offers already operational versions for IAF's, BSF's, IN's and ICG's requirements.

C-27Js will offer compatibility with the IAF's C-130J-30s (same engines). Also the C-27J has a lot of benefits over the C-295 vis a vis loading capacity:

The C-295 is also underpowered as compared to the C-27J (travels slower, has a lower service ceiling and requires a longer runway to take off from) which does matter especially when looking at the IAF's area of operations (high altitude areas specifically).

Will offer a more versatile transport platform to the IAF than the C-295.

The C130 is not a contender in this competition and the XJ is a less capable J,

Indeed, and that is ideal- there is no need to go for the top-spec J version for the Avro replacement.

 

[sancho]

C-27Js will offer compatibility with the IAF's C-130J-30s (same engines).

Which isn't a point, since we will operate only 12 x C130Js in IAF, the avro replacement in much higher, therefore reduced costs of that will have a higher impact to the total costs than the commonality to C130Js

Also the C-27J has a lot of benefits over the C-295 vis a vis loading capacity

Yes, but only if you have such requirements! But that's the point, IAF doesn't since it will have a fleet of medium class C130Js and MTAs for that, not to mention the heavy class transporters.

The C-295 is also underpowered as compared to the C-27J (travels slower, has a lower service ceiling and requires a longer runway to take off from) which does matter especially when looking at the IAF's area of operations (high altitude areas specifically)

That's why the new C295W with improved hot and high capabilities is offered.

Will offer a more versatile transport platform to the IAF than the C-295.

Again, not the issue when you have medium class tactical airfcafts.

Indeed, and that is ideal- there is no need to go for the top-spec J version for the Avro replacement.

Wrong, because the XJ remains to be a medium class aircraft, a class above the Avro! It is just aimed as a cost-effective solution in competition to other coming medium class aircrafts like the KC390 or MTA.

 

[sudhir007]

@Abingdonboy @sancho I read that usa navy want to sell their c-27J

 

[Kaalapani]

The C130 is not a contender in this competition and the XJ is a less capable J, therefore only more cost-effective because less capable. IAF would simply order more MTAs' if they would think the Avro replacement should be a 20t class aircraft, which it obviously don't want.
The MTA also is the main reason that will speak against the C27J, since the latter is aimed at similar capabilities in cargo hold, short take off and landings and rough airstrips, which also will increase operational costs, one reason the US want to get rid if their C27Js. Just as the Avro replacement has no tactical aim, but is mainly used for cost-effective utility transports.
The C295 on the other side would offer a good hi lo combo with the MTA, complementing eachother at cost and capability and it's the only platform that offers already operational versions for IAF's, BSF's, IN's and ICG's requirements.

any TOT involved in this?

Bhai we have Hal medium transport aircraft in pipeline.

so more c-130 are out of question atleast for now.this is for lower class not c-130 class so c-27 will be the winners i think.

also C-130 are too costly and expensive.

 

[sancho]

@Abingdonboy @sancho I read that usa navy want to sell their c-27J

They are from the air force and they tried to get rid of them somehow, because they are too costly to operate, trying to find other parts of the US forces to take them over, or to find foreign customers.

any TOT involved in this?

Bhai we have Hal medium transport aircraft in pipeline.

so more c-130 are out of question atleast for now.this is for lower class not c-130 class so c-27 will be the winners i think.

also C-130 are too costly and expensive.

That's what I say too, any additional order for C130s apart of the 12 we already ordered, would automatically hit MTA orders, since they are in the same class.
The Avros are a class below, which is why the C130 and MTA don't play a role here, but makes the C295W and the C27J as the most likely contenders And as mentioned, the problem for the C27J is the high operational costs, which since it's more aimed at air forces that only have this class of aircrafts, to combine light utility transports with tactical operations, but that is not needed for IAF and that makes the cost-benefit ratio rather low for it.

 

[sancho]

India's Tender for Private-Sector-Built Airlifter May Not Take Off

India’s first attempt to operate a military aircraft-building program involving the domestic private sector appears to be a non-starter as only one potential foreign partner is likely to submit a bid, a Ministry of Defence source said.
With only Spain-based Airbus Defence and Space participating, the program would become a single-vendor contest, which MoD almost certainly would cancel...

...
Low Attendance
When the MoD decided to go ahead with the private-sector aircraft effort, only Airbus and Antonov participated in a pre-bid meeting in April, an MoD source said.

In May 2013, the global tender for procurement of 56 aircraft was sent to Airbus Defence and Space, Alenia Aeronautica, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Antonov Design Bureau, Ilyushin Design Bureau and Embraer.

Ukraine-based Antonov informally informed MoD that it could not transfer aircraft technology because a majority of the systems are sourced from Russia’s Voronezh Aircraft Production Association. Moscow has stopped export of these technologies to the Ukrainian company.

Antonov had negotiated with domestic private-sector major Tata Advanced Systems for licensed production of its An-148 aircraft.

No executive of Antonov was available for comment.

That leaves Airbus as the sole overseas bidder likely to be in the fray. Airbus has already teamed with domestic private company Larsen & Toubro for licensed production of the Airbus C-295 aircraft.

However, domestic industry has labeled the program as too small.

An executive of the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI), the lobbying agency of the domestic private sector, said it welcomes the government’s decision to allow private local companies as production partners. But because only 40 aircraft will be produced under license in India and the remaining 16 will be imported, the Avro replacement program is not economically viable for a private firm.

“An order for licensed production of at least 75 aircraft would be economically viable as the domestic company will have to set up production facilities worth over $500 million,” the FICCI executive said

India's Tender for Private-Sector-Built Airlifter May Not Take Off | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[Echo_419]

India's Tender for Private-Sector-Built Airlifter May Not Take Off | Defense News | defensenews.com

I said will not be economically Feasible,Order is simply to small who will setup a production line for that.Either Increase the number of planes or Give MTA Project to Pvt sector HAL Doesn't even seem interested in that project.

 

[sancho]

I said will not be economically Feasible,Order is simply to small who will setup a production line for that.Either Increase the number of planes or Give MTA Project to Pvt sector HAL Doesn't even seem interested in that project.

A 40 x aircrafts licence production is not a small order, that's why a licence production is even considered by the foreign vendors, otherwise they would just say we will produce it in our countries, but it's our privat industry that is not happy with it and wants more profit. That's the real problem and is also the main difference to PSUs like HAL. The private industry is mainly profit oriented and their first goal is their own interest, while HAL can be bound to the national interest, even if the profit is not as big. And the claim that this would not profitable is a myth, especially when you consider that the same privat company most likely will be contracted to build parts of the aircraft for other export customers too, to benefit from the lower production costs in India, not to mention that the company could also be a local maintenance hub. So we are talking about the greed for more, ignoring the potential of the deal for the privat industry.
Wrt ordering more, IAF can't order more aircrafts than they actually need, since that would result into waste of money of their budgets, be it for the procurement or the maintenance of the aircrafts. That is only done when it's about an indigenous development and the government orders more to help a company, see US government orders of C17 to keep Boeings productionline open, although USAF had no use of more aircrafts.
But depending on which aircraft will be chosen, the total requirement could be far higher if MoD would combine the requirement of other forces too. The Airbus C295 in fact fulfills the requirements of BSF, ICG and maybe even IN, although in other varients. That would bring the total requirement up to around 80, although I think ICG and IN need more MPAs. But as long as we maintain these seperate procurement competitions, we will remain inefficient and slow.
Btw why should MTA be given to privat industry? HAL is jointly developing it with the Russians, but since it is another class of aircraft, it doesn't fit to the Avro replacement.