Ready to share most modern technology with India: Germany

[koushik]

And i suspect u have a source?

No country lets another airforce to see its jets inside out in an exercise......Nor can an airforce know a fighter jet inside out in an exercise .



In the end MKI is a modified SU-30........ Same engine,upgraded avionics,same airframe.

Su-30MKK uses the N001-VEP Radar which has only 150km range but MKI has N-011M Bars with around 350km range.the MKK uses AL-31F engines giving 123kn thrust whereas the MKI has AL-31FP 2D-TVC engines with 132kn thrust.The MKK is a modification of the Su-27SK whereas the MKI is a modification of the Su-30/Su-30MK.

 

[kingdurgaking]

This article shall be considered as a lube for pushing forward the EF which has not earned much foreign customers due to its complexity and expensive maintenance. Saudi Arabia already operates 72 EF and Pakistani hands are all over it.

do you think EFT consortium is that stupid?? first of all EFT has lot of US components and for alteast 5 years EFT consortium will be around to train and maintain them... No way they will allow PAF to come near them.... After that it will be hardly 1 or 2 pilots will be trained.. enough for India to have squadron of Tranche 3B incase they get selected... and these Birds will be entirely different for PAF to handle..

By that time LCA MK-2 will also be in air to keep a check on west which will be almost equal to your J-10B in payload ,avionics

 

[sancho]

Back to topic please!

 

[axisofevil]

- Brahmos
- FGFA
- MTA

Helicopter partnerships are on offer, just like tanks, or armored vehicles.

Russia was not only the first, but is still the only nation that gave us the opportunity to team up with them at such a large scale and so far not even the Israelis, or Europeans can even come close to that.



Regarding EF ToT, you have to take a closer look to see what ToT, or co-developments they mean and what the real aim behind their offer is!
With ToT of future upgrades they basically mean the upgrade to Tranche 3B, because that is the standard offered to India, but that also is not funded, nor ordered from the initial partners. IF we join as a partner, we have to pay a big part of the R&D from all changes that the T3B will have, like AESA radar, NG avionics, TVC, CFTs, integration of more A2G weapons, if needed more engine thrust. All this is not cleared yet and most of this will only come when we join, or might be developed for the EF only till 2020 as a retrofit upgrades for their older EFs.

The Rafale F3+ that is on offer for MMRCA instead, is completely funded and even ordered from France, which means we don't have to pay additional money for the techs and we still get ToT (full ToT + source codes of the RBE 2 AESA radar)!!!

Co-developments for EF are not going to be a big advantage for the Indian industry, except if we go for the Sea Typhoon. Why? Because most of the upgrades of T3B are already developed, the EF partners simply don't have the money to fully develop them. That's why they don't look for our industry to join the R&D stage, but to use the advantages of low production costs and our fundings to make this upgrades reality anytime soon.
The TVC for example was developed since 2000 and is available as a ground demo version and was on offer for the partners and their T3A. Eurojet the manufacturere even promised that the development costs will be covered by the benefits of lower fuel consumption (besides that it will make EF more maneuverable of course), but still no partner country wanted it and now they hope we will fund it if we join as a partner. The development is nearly done, so there isn't much that our industry will contrbute to the R&D, or where we can gain, we simply will get parts of the production of it, because that lowers the costs again. The same can be said, for AESA, CFTs, or avionics as well and only the Sea Typhoon might be a real co-development for India, because they only have studies so far and we are the only country (in the world!) that might have interest in an naval EF version. But what's the use? The Sea Typhoon will be less capable than comparable Rafale M, or F18SH versions, the development is so costly, that the UK prefered F35Bs and Cs instead. If we are the only operator of such an version, all upgrades of it must be paid by us alone and the by the time we developed it for such high costs, we already will have N-LCAs in service on IN carriers, that gave our country much more to gain in terms of naval R&D, or can start even to re-design a naval Pak Fa, AMCA version (Russia offers us to contribute, or even make the naval re-design).


Bottom line is, the EF partnership and ToT offer sounds good, but in reality they just search for an potent customer that can takeover parts of the fundings, that they can't at the moment. The gain for our industry is limited and the ToT offer in gerneral won't going to be much better as well (at least in fields that are important for us, like radar and engine).

The only fields where the EF really can offer more imo is at the ammount of offsets and maybe politics, but be it at the fighter itself, costs, ToT, or gain for our industry the French seems to have clear advantages.

Good analysis, but I would think the Indian gov't would make it a point to clarify what exactly our role would in this project. Obviously India will inject fresh funding and production will take place in india due to lower labor costs but I think germany statement reflects that it understands India's position. If the DoD is not guaranteed actual partner status and denied access to tech that has already been developed, then I say Rafale all the way.

Thanks for the Russian input. But seeing how Russia is reacting recently, it is a matter of time before things go furher sour due to Western countries winning contracts. I give Russia credit for helping us out but their failure at spares and their level of cooperation with China is not helping their position. I know at the end of the day, its all about money. That's why India needs access to tech that it will be able to grasp and incorporate into their industry, not like the Scorpion debacle.

 

[sancho]

Good analysis, but I would think the Indian gov't would make it a point to clarify what exactly our role would in this project. Obviously India will inject fresh funding and production will take place in india due to lower labor costs but I think germany statement reflects that it understands India's position. If the DoD is not guaranteed actual partner status and denied access to tech that has already been developed, then I say Rafale all the way.

Thanks for the Russian input. But seeing how Russia is reacting recently, it is a matter of time before things go furher sour due to Western countries winning contracts. I give Russia credit for helping us out but their failure at spares and their level of cooperation with China is not helping their position. I know at the end of the day, its all about money. That's why India needs access to tech that it will be able to grasp and incorporate into their industry, not like the Scorpion debacle.

Actual partner status doesn't mean equal paricipation in all developments. Spain for example is also a parter, but clearly the smallest and their industry can only participate to a certain extend, Indias stake might be bigger, but not because our industry is more capable, most likely because we order and fund more.

If you mean that they cancelled the exercises, I wouldn't take that too seriously. It might be just an reaction to our new policy to by spares for Russian aircrafts from western countries as well. They are offended, because with dismissing the Mig 35, this was the 2nd time within a few weeks, that we openly accused them for less quality and performance.
These exercises won't change much in regard to our business relations, or co-developments, because they need us just like we need them! Without our money they can't develop Pak Fa, they can't keep their docks running without our orders for subs and vessels and they knows it and even for exports they need us, because the Su 30 mainly was an success after the MKI development and the good reports about it in the western media.They also realised the importance of India in regard to customers in Asia, that's why Mig 29, or Su 30 maintenance might be done in India now, just like they offer the final assembly of helicopters for other Asian countries in India.
But we must be careful to not loose our main partner too, because they also know that it is not good for them to be too dependent on our money and our orders. That's why they also try to get Brazil as another partner in the Pak Fa development, or why they get closer and closer to the European aero and defence industry (shares on EADS, JV with EADS and Thales, possible procurement and licence production of French LHDs, or Italian APCs...).
Beeing cheap alone won't get them exports anymore, because China is at least as cheap. Now they want to get more quality as well to attract more countries in Asia, or South America again.

The Scorpene deal imo was even purly based on ToT and not on capability of the sub, cost advantages, or other benefits. They simply could offer things that the Germans couldn't, ToT of nuclear propulsions and the neccesary systems. Same reason why they won a similar deal in Brazil against the Germans.