Refuelling?

[Zeeshan S.]

I was wondering with refuelling capability this can give Pakistan a very good way to save money and keep the PAF in the air during the war time as much as possible, because note since we dont have many aircrafts compare to India, it would be really hard to deal with such situation, since the enemy's aircrafts will be entering every 10 minutes with a surprise.

What do you guys think? Should Refuelling make the list of being acquired in PAF or not? Considering the importance of improving the capability of other things like acquiring a new type of aircraft to meet the needs, creating a more improved air defence system such as modern SAMs, and so on.

Share your opinions.

 

[Thunder]

I guess that PAF is infact thinking of having a few refuellers in it's inventory cause the JF-17 has/will have air to air refeuling capabilaty. So will the F-16C/D. And i think F-16's MLU

 

[Sid]

At this point in time, given the current situation that the PAF is in; air-to-air refueling capability is certainly NOT a priority since there are more important things to worry about.

1. Frontline fighter aircrafts: Which the PAF desperately needs in order to bridge the gap with IAF's Su-30s.

2. Bulk of the PAF force: This includes the Jf-17s and the F-16s that will be procured.

3. Advanced SAMs: PAF currently uses obsolete Crotales and HQ-1s and HQ-2s. In order to guarantee the security of the Pakistani airspace; drastic measures are required in obtaining the most up-to-date air defense systems.

4. Radars: There are certain 'gaps' in the radar coverage that the PAF currently employs that need to be plugged. They're still using 80s vintage radars!

5. AWACS: Erieyes are needed as soon as possible to counter the threat posed by IAF's Israeli AWACS, the first of which would be delivered soon enough.

After all this serious business has been taken care of, then the PAF might go for the air-to-air refueling capability which is certainly not a necessasity at this point in time.

Cheers.

 

[Kaiser]

1. Pakistan currently operates an advanced version of the HQ-2 called the HQ-2B which will last us atleast untill 2020 counting on SU-30MKI's humongious RCS. It is also said that Pakistan had bought FT-2000 SAMS from China and is looking into the super advanced HQ-18.

2. Pakistan is using advanced radar under license production these include the Grifo M, Grifo p, and the future Girfo 2000, grifo S7 and advanced AESA version of the S7 under developement.

3. Pakistan has also shown interest in the Chinese AWACS (forgot its name) which is said to be a copy of the Phalcon from israel.

 

[Sid]

Pakistan does not have any proper long range SAMs. Su-30s, as far as I know have a higher max. ceiling than the HQ-2 missiles which means they can evade the missiles with little difficulty.

FT-2000 was initially an anti-radiation missile which was designed to target AWACS with passive radar. The SAM version of it FT-2000A was in development with an active radar on board. Pakistan had shown interest in both but so far there have been no credible reports suggesting that a purchase agreement has been signed.

When I talked about radars, I meant ground-based radars that act as warning systems against intruders, not the radars onboard fighter jets.

Pakistan's interest in the Chinese AWACS is old news. Right now discussions are in advanced stages for the Swedish Erieye which is the next best option after E-3 Sentry and Phalcon (both of which PAF cannot get owing to political considerations).

 

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by myst@Feb 21 2006, 11:39 PM
Pakistan does not have any proper long range SAMs. Su-30s, as far as I know have a higher max. ceiling than the HQ-2 missiles which means they can evade the missiles with little difficulty.

As I have said pakistan operates an advanced version of the HQ-2 and the SU-30MKI in not a Super fighter that it cant be hit by SAMS :stupid:

FT-2000 was initially an anti-radiation missile which was designed to target AWACS with passive radar. The SAM version of it FT-2000A was in development with an active radar on board. Pakistan had shown interest in both but so far there have been no credible reports suggesting that a purchase agreement has been signed.

Yes but it is also capable of attacking aricrafts with High RC's (su-30, mirage 2000, jaguar, whole mig family) and has Semi-Ballistic missile attack capabilities, it just so happens that all the aircraft in the IAF have an RC's over 4 which is alot! Pakistan is also eyeing the HQ-18 which is said to be based off the russian S-400 which is better than the PAC-3.

When I talked about radars, I meant ground-based radars that act as warning systems against intruders, not the radars onboard fighter jets.

If you have been reading news then you would know that pakistan just bought 4-8 of the most advanced ground based radar system in the world and has leased the VERA system which can detect stealth aircrafts from far away.

Pakistan's interest in the Chinese AWACS is old news. Right now discussions are in advanced stages for the Swedish Erieye which is the next best option after E-3 Sentry and Phalcon (both of which PAF cannot get owing to political considerations).

The deal for the Eireye has been signed we are recieving 8 of them. Why would pakistan go for the E-3 when we can go for the Chinese system which is alittle inferior but, has no political strings attached and no where in hell are we gonna go for the phalcon.

 

[ISI2003]

America is planning to retire many of the KC-135E refuelers (each used plane would sell for around $47 Million), Because they are procuring the KC-767

Information on the KC-135

these planes would be old, but pakistan could retire them when chinese options come online
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Pakistan could procure enough KC-135 to maintian sortie rates, and sortie rates will be a force multiplier, there needs to be enough fuel to keep all the planes up to exceed the sortie rate of the indians, in order to maintian air cover

The Indian Air Force has around 1500 planes to pakistan's 450, and the fact that india would have refuler's would mean they would have the ability to field four times as many planes as pakistan

so pakistan nned to maintian at least the sortie rate of the IAF; 1800 planes in the air

this would require alot of calculations to find out this number (fuel for 1800 planes a day)
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I guess this number should be around 9 KC-135E (3 planes in each of the three regions, and enough to always have two up in the air at all times)

@$47 Million each, 9 KC-135 would cost $423 Million with all the other stuff, we can say about $600 Million

A Modest Price for a Decent capability

 

[Sid]

Its useless to argue on the HQ-2J vs Sukhoi issue in the face of your blind patriotism.

'Eyeing' a system and sitting down with a purchase agreement on hand with a pen in hand to sign it are two totally different things. And then there is the delivery period and integration in to the current network to form a cohesive defensive mechanism, all that takes time.

4-8 of the most advanced radars in the world? Please provide more information on that as I think you are referring to TPS ones. The VERA once again is a stop-gap measure which is proved by its leasing and not 'buying'.

About the AWACS, the agreement signed was for 6 systems and once again, given the secrecy level surrounding Pakistani purchases of defence equipment, I'll believe it when I see it being delivered to Pakistan which is so far not the case. About the Chinese AWACS, I'm sure you're not advising PAF to waste its meagre resources over something that is inferior and doesn't meet its requirements.

 

[ISI2003]

The Indian IL-78 costs $25-35 Million and carries 48,000 kg of Fuel
The KC-135 costs $47 Million and carries 68,000kg of Fuel

So Each KC-135 carries 42% More Fuel than the IL-78, So 9 KC-135 would be equal to about 13 IL-78, in terms of amount of fuel carried

 

[Sid]

Yes IMHO, the KC-135 would be a good choice but like I said, other issues need priority at the moment and then refuelling could be looked at certainly.

 

[ISI2003]

Originally posted by myst@Feb 21 2006, 09:24 PM
Yes IMHO, the KC-135 would be a good choice but like I said, other issues need priority at the moment and then refuelling could be looked at certainly.

[post=6012]Quoted post[/post]​

Refuelers would increase sortie rates, and if before one f-16 made two sorties a day, and now does four a day, then that plane is almost like two planes

I agree we have more pressing concerns, but we hould do this alongside F-16 Procurement and JF-17 Construction

Refuelers Would allow (if this is added) AWACS planes to stay up long, and therefore allow siz planes to act as more, as they would be up longer.

A very Important aspect; Refueling in the air would allow time to be saved as planes would not have to land and takeoff again, wasting fuel that way
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In the end, the money saved by the multiplier affect of these planes would allow these planes to pay for them selves over their 10-15 year lives

 

[Sid]

Yes you are correct but the scenarios you are describing are not peace-time scenarios. Refuellers would be most handy in times of tension and war where every minute is important.

The present day situation between Pakistan and India suggests that Pakistan should take advantage of this and fulfill other pressing concerns and then go for the refuellers so that it will be better prepared for times to come.

 

[ISI2003]

Originally posted by myst@Feb 22 2006, 12:36 AM
Yes you are correct but the scenarios you are describing are not peace-time scenarios. Refuellers would be most handy in times of tension and war where every minute is important.

The present day situation between Pakistan and India suggests that Pakistan should take advantage of this and fulfill other pressing concerns and then go for the refuellers so that it will be better prepared for times to come.

[post=6017]Quoted post[/post]​

@$47 Million each, a fleet of 9 would be real force multipliers, no matter what planes they refuel, they keep them up, and in the fight if needed

of course this would be useful in war, as the rest of the air fleet would be useful in war, and almost useless in peacetime

i agree there are other priorities, but we should not leave this, as it will be important, on th elist of things after the actual fighter procurements

we should start the procurements, and once we have most of the f-16's deleivered, and the JF-17 entering the fleet (around 2009-2010) then we should go for this, as we would be spending around $600 Million
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we could try to get these as excess defense articles, as they are used and are going to be replaced with KC-767's

 

[Neo]

Originally posted by myst@Feb 22 2006, 05:36 AM
Yes you are correct but the scenarios you are describing are not peace-time scenarios. Refuellers would be most handy in times of tension and war where every minute is important.

The present day situation between Pakistan and India suggests that Pakistan should take advantage of this and fulfill other pressing concerns and then go for the refuellers so that it will be better prepared for times to come.

[post=6017]Quoted post[/post]​

I don't full agree here Mysty.
Peace situation can change easily, specially in our region.
All it took was an terrorist attack on the Indian parliament and we all know how the situation deteriorated by the hour resulting in a huge build up on each side of the border.
So, I rather be prepared then surprised for a situation.
India already has a numeric advantage, if 9 tankers can multiply our sorties than $600 million is a bargain.

 

[Bull]

Originally posted by Neo@Feb 22 2006, 01:49 PM
I don't full agree here Mysty.
Peace situation can change easily, specially in our region.
All it took was an terrorist attack on the Indian parliament and we all know how the situation deteriorated by the hour resulting in a huge build up on each side of the border.
So, I rather be prepared then surprised for a situation.
India already has a numeric advantage, if 9 tankers can multiply our sorties than $600 million is a bargain.

[post=6030]Quoted post[/post]​

force multipliers is the norm of the day,pgms,night vision devices,in board computers,smart ballestics all are crucial additons to a force and so will be refuellers.

However it wont be as glamorous as adding a few squadrons of brand new fighters.