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Retired U.S. general on how to handle IS and why we lost in Iraq, Afg

But there is also logic in saying that the Nations who've achieved something don't always cry about the lack of opportunities in front of them or how life isn't fair but that they work through these shortcomings and these grave....grave misgivings to achieve something.

Sadly we're not that Nation whether we're within or with-out Pakistan !

Thank you for elaboration, I understand your narrative, but I may gently reiterate that moving and then staying abroad is not all about self preservation and materialism just like willingly opting to stay back home is not all due to nationalistic reasons.

And I think we already agreed on this that individuals make choices not just as per ambitions and prosperous opportunities but also as per ideals and perspectives.

So depending on situation one may find oneself more functional and capable of contributing in an alternative situation, (analogy back stage) as compared to being all at front with the effort....
bottom line, front or behind, inside or out, we could all still be working to realize the same dear dream!

A little example of my idea of serving is: community I belong to has sponsored 7 TCF (The Citizens Foundation) schools in Pakistan in last 5 years, all schools are quality schools in the unpriviledged areas of Pakistan, maintaining 50% ratio for girls, hiring teachers on merit and providing proper training to teachers and facilities to students.

I want to keep doing what is possible in current capacity, doing more inshaAllah with time, although there is nothing like being with your own people and family, smelling the soil of your own land.......

Sorry that I have got off the topic of original thread, I'll stop here and catch up again when I see a thread more relevant to nationalism etc..... Thanks for sharing the perspective!
 
Thank you for elaboration, I understand your narrative, but I may gently reiterate that moving and then staying abroad is not all about self preservation and materialism just like willingly opting to stay back home is not all due to nationalistic reasons.

And I think we already agreed on this that individuals make choices not just as per ambitions and prosperous opportunities but also as per ideals and perspectives.

So depending on situation one may find oneself more functional and capable of contributing in an alternative situation, (analogy back stage) as compared to being all at front with the effort....
bottom line, front or behind, inside or out, we could all still be working to realize the same dear dream!

A little example of my idea of serving is: community I belong to has sponsored 7 TCF (The Citizens Foundation) schools in Pakistan in last 5 years, all schools are quality schools in the unpriviledged areas of Pakistan, maintaining 50% ratio for girls, hiring teachers on merit and providing proper training to teachers and facilities to students.

I want to keep doing what is possible in current capacity, doing more inshaAllah with time, although there is nothing like being with your own people and family, smelling the soil of your own land.......

Sorry that I have got off the topic of original thread, I'll stop here and catch up again when I see a thread more relevant to nationalism etc..... Thanks for sharing the perspective!

What does that have anything to do with what I wrote ? :what:

Besides if its not self-interest that drives people to move abroad then what is it ? Because after all saying that 'So depending on situation one may find oneself more functional and capable of contributing in an alternative situation' is a politically correct way of saying 'Self-Interest' and then 'Rationalizing' ones decision.

Its a little like how ex-pats endlessly mention how its their remittances that sustain the Pakistani Economy when if truth be told they don't send money back home because they are bleeding heart patriots; they send it home because they've got dependents back home in Pakistan. The day the dependents leave for foreign shores is the day when those remittances will dry up substantially.

And these small acts of charity are a part of those rationalizations not because of some genuine desire to do something for one's country.
 
What does that have anything to do with what I wrote ? :what:

Besides if its not self-interest that drives people to move abroad then what is it ? Because after all saying that 'So depending on situation one may find oneself more functional and capable of contributing in an alternative situation' is a politically correct way of saying 'Self-Interest' and then 'Rationalizing' ones decision.

Its a little like how ex-pats endlessly mention how its their remittances that sustain the Pakistani Economy when if truth be told they don't send money back home because they are bleeding heart patriots; they send it home because they've got dependents back home in Pakistan. The day the dependents leave for foreign shores is the day when those remittances will dry up substantially.

And these small acts of charity are a part of those rationalizations not because of some genuine desire to do something for one's country.

IMHO Locals pursuing careers back home and working hard for it are also pursuing self interest largely...what makes one say it is totally nationalistic?

Best one can do is to put ones sincere efforts professionally and stay clean morally, if someone has only done that much, I'd consider the credit of contribution is earned by that individual, while acts of charity are our religious obligation anyways where ever we live, but our feelings guide us to whom, when and how we contribute, it is not rationalization by any means.

If you feel that we are a nation that can not sacrifice inside or out, then sorry I don't agree, but if you say we are torn, losing spirit, fail to sing the same song, lack direction, leadership and inspiration then yes I do agree with you..

And who claimed expats sustaining economy, I only mentioned expats can be equally contributive if they want to be....

So many I know already have dependents with them, only extended families back home.... But even if the day comes and the whole family aboards then the attachment with the place one grew up would go away?
 
IMHO Locals pursuing careers back home and working hard for it are also pursuing self interest largely...what makes one say it is totally nationalistic?

Best one can do is to put ones sincere efforts professionally and stay clean morally, if someone has only done that much, I'd consider the credit of contribution is earned by that individual, while acts of charity are our religious obligation anyways where ever we live, but our feelings guide us to whom, when and how we contribute, it is not rationalization by any means.

If you feel that we are a nation that can not sacrifice inside or out, then sorry I don't agree, but if you say we are torn, losing spirit, fail to sing the same song, lack direction, leadership and inspiration then yes I do agree with you..

And who claimed expats sustaining economy, I only mentioned expats can be equally contributive if they want to be....

So many I know already have dependents with them, only extended families back home.... But even if the day comes and the whole family aboards then the attachment with the place one grew up would go away?

Ma'am aaap tou naraaaz ho gaiiin ! :(

Sorry.....ghussaaa nahin karnaa ! :cry:
 
What does that have anything to do with what I wrote ? :what:

Besides if its not self-interest that drives people to move abroad then what is it ? Because after all saying that 'So depending on situation one may find oneself more functional and capable of contributing in an alternative situation' is a politically correct way of saying 'Self-Interest' and then 'Rationalizing' ones decision.

Its a little like how ex-pats endlessly mention how its their remittances that sustain the Pakistani Economy when if truth be told they don't send money back home because they are bleeding heart patriots; they send it home because they've got dependents back home in Pakistan. The day the dependents leave for foreign shores is the day when those remittances will dry up substantially.

And these small acts of charity are a part of those rationalizations not because of some genuine desire to do something for one's country.

Hi,

What a disgusting post----.

Actually the indian ex pats were treated and thought of in a similar manner till about 1997--98--99---and then india woke up and accepted them as an asset---realized what they brought to the table and what they could bring to the table---and all this development in india is purely thru all its expats investing in the nation and thus bringing more investment from outside----it all started with sending money home.

We had the desire of doing something for the country and we did---till your dear judge Justice Chaudhry made the judgement about expats----.
 
Hi,

What a disgusting post----.

Actually the indian ex pats were treated and thought of in a similar manner till about 1997--98--99---and then india woke up and accepted them as an asset---realized what they brought to the table and what they could bring to the table---and all this development in india is purely thru all its expats investing in the nation and thus bringing more investment from outside----it all started with sending money home.

We had the desire of doing something for the country and we did---till your dear judge Justice Chaudhry made the judgement about expats----.

And what exactly have the expats brought to the table ?

So your desire to do something for the country are pegged with the remarks of a controversial chief justice; such self-righteousness if there ever was !
 
Sorry...But no comparison.

The difference between the ACLU and the HRCP is that in the US, the ACLU swims WITH societal current while in Pakistan, the HRCP swims AGAINST societal current.

Take religious freedom, for example.

In the US, Americans believes in religious freedoms long before the ACLU came into existence. No, that evolution was not perfect, and in some respect, that journey needed an organization like the ACLU to keep Americans focused on the original idea of what make a country free from religious oppression. Today, the ACLU had to imagine religious oppression, or at least perceived oppression, in order to justify its going after things like suing stores that uses 'Merry Christmas' instead of 'Happy Holidays'. Whereas in Pakistan, what would happen if a Muslim accuses a Christian of 'desecrating' a Quran ? The Christian will most likely be dead before the HRCP can respond with its condemnation. There are all kinds of social, religious, and political issues that the HRCP have to fight against the people and their beliefs that really have no parallel in the US, at least not in this era, anyway. The HRCP do not have to imagine any issue to justify its needed existence while the ACLU in the US -- does.

and what you imply I agree with regarding the General's ideals. But at the same time, when you talk of clueless people discussing US policies one also has to look to congress where elected representatives exist who genuinely believe that the earth is 10000 years old.. and these people help MAKE policy.
Please...:rolleyes:

When I called someone 'clueless' about an issue, it is about the details of said issues, not of his/her general beliefs about the universe. But let us say that US Senator Joe Redneck is a literal interpreter of the Bible, how does that affect his analyses of Bremer's decision to disband the Iraqi Army ? No effects at all. But if you want to go there, what about djinns or the seven levels of heaven that Muslims believes in ?

Your fixation with the idea that somehow Pakistans actions, Pakistani policies or any third world policies are some yardstick to judge the United States by.. or should always be kept in mind whenever US policies are discussed seems a rather defeatist ideal. What possible comparison does the United States have with any 3rd world country to offer it as a counter example just for the heck of avoiding a debate on its policies?
Only if the person want to call US 'stupid' in making so-and-so decision. Calling US 'stupid' automatically imply that there is a smarter choice. I would like to know, not only what are those other choices, but how did that person came up with that argument. How would Pakistan or Japan or Russia could have done differently and produce a superior outcome.

Decisions have consequences and often leaders changes before those consequences came into being. If a Pakistani want to call US 'stupid' for the decision to disband the Iraqi Army, would that same person call Pakistan 'stupid' for getting involved with the US-Pakistan-Saudi triad after the Soviet invaded Afghanistan ? Decisions have consequences, correct ? Now one of them is that the Taliban have effective control of large parts of Pakistan and the Pakistani government is relatively helpless about it. But what were the alternatives back then for Pakistan ? Would doing nothing produce a different and more favorable outcome ? Who knows ? Plenty of Pakistanis would argue that 'Who knows ? ' and support that alliance. They would not call that decision 'stupid' but have no problems calling US 'stupid' for making our decisions in events that they know little to nothing of the details.

In either case, the General's contention is not incorrect, but there is no edict to take that as the final word and not discuss his conclusions further.
Please...:rolleyes:

Dismissing whatever we argued in our defense as 'whitewash' is discussion ?
 
We are still waiting for either the Russians or the Chinese to 'grow a pair' to take US on. After all, it was they who disagreed with US over Iraq. They could have sided with Saddam Hussein.

What...??? No pair ? :lol:
Look at Afghanistan and you will realize how bad you need a pair )
You are talking about china and Russia and can't deal with a bunch of malnourished ragheads :lol:
 

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