Rs 80,000 crore worth defence projects cleared, 6 submarines to be built in India

[kurup]

Ok, VLS for land attack and not for AsCM missile.

VLS can launch both

But there is another problem here, but launching a cruise missile from VLS and controlling the buoyancy level will be horrible for SSK.

Launch from a missile or torpedo tube will also affect buoyancy .

In enemy waters, where there will be lots of bugs around, it can easily disclose its location, and max. speed of 20 knots, anyone can intercept it, it will be like sitting duck.

Same is applicable for torpedo tube missile launch and even torpedo launch .

In my thinking SSK is not for cruise missile and not at all for VLS. By launching a cruise missile it easily give away its location.

So you are advocating that missile firing is not at all needed by a sub .

 

[temp1994]

VLS can launch both



Launch from a missile or torpedo tube will also affect buoyancy .



Same is applicable for torpedo tube missile launch and even torpedo launch .



So you are advocating that missile firing is not at all needed by a sub .

You are missing some important limitations that would come with a VLS launch.

1. A VLS tube could be used only for firing missiles while a torpedo tube could be used for firing missiles,torpedo,mine laying. This means that a VLS capable sub would also require torpedo tubes. Sheer wastage of space.

2. A missile in VLS launch has to be preloaded. This reduces the number of missile to that what VLS tubes could carry in a preloaded format. A torpedo launched cruise missile need to be loaded only at the time of firing.No of Cruise missile that a Sub could carry in a torpedo launch mode is limited by storage capacity of Sub.

 

[kurup]

You are missing some important limitations that would come with a VLS launch.

1. A VLS tube could be used only for firing missiles while a torpedo tube could be used for firing missiles,torpedo,mine laying. This means that a VLS capable sub would also require torpedo tubes. Sheer wastage of space.

2. A missile in VLS launch has to be preloaded. This reduces the number of missile to that what VLS tubes could carry in a preloaded format. A torpedo launched cruise missile need to be loaded only at the time of firing.No of Cruise missile that a Sub could carry in a torpedo launch mode is limited by storage capacity of Sub.

I am not advocating a VLS alone sub .

As you pointed out the drawback of using torpedo tube for missile launch is that it will reduce the number of torpedoes carried by the sub .

 

[sathya]

Indian MoD signs off on USD13 bn for Spike, submarine, ICV procurements

Key Points

• India's MoD on 25 October approved the INR32 billion purchase of 8,356 Rafael Spike ATGMs and 321 launchers.
• The MoD approved INR800 billion (USD13.33 billion) worth of acquisitions, including six new attack submarines, Kh-35 missiles, and BMP-2 ICVs.

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) opted on 25 October for Israeli over US anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) as it approved acquisitions worth INR800 billion (USD13.33 billion) to modernise the services and boost indigenous military industry.

The MoD's Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), headed by Defence Minister Arun Jaitley, cleared the INR32 billion purchase of 8,356 man-portable Rafael Spike Extended-Range (ER) ATGMs and 321 launchers.

 

[temp1994]

I am not advocating a VLS alone sub .

But the reality is that close to all VLS subs are SSBN's. The reason for that is because SLBM's are too bulky to be loaded in real time and they have to be preloaded.

I am not advocating a VLS alone sub .

As you pointed out the drawback of using torpedo tube for missile launch is that it will reduce the number of torpedoes carried by the sub .

I meant completely opposite of that.

See, a missile in VLS has to be preloaded into that VLS. This means that if a Sub has capability to carry and fire 500 cruise missiles, there need to be 500 VLS tubes ( considering 1 missile per tube , usually there are upto three ).

In comparison to that, all 500 cruise missiles could be fired from a single torpedo tube, a tube which could also be used to fire Torpedo and lay mines.Only limiting factor here would be capacity of ammo locker room.

A torpedo launch system saves space vis-a-vis VLS.

And i forgot to mention one important drawback of VLS: 3. It would take much more time to resupply a VLS sub than a normal sub.

 

[sathya]

India’s Project 75 SSKs: Too Late to Save the Submarine Force?

DAC clears Project 75i, but conditions set by India’s political class have cut the throat of their future submarine force structure.

Oct 24/14: Project 75i. India’s top-level Defence Acquisition Council clears INR 900 billion in acquisitions, including INR 530 billion for Project 75i to build 6 AIP submarines in India. The government intends to identify capable shipyards for the foreign partnership within the next 2 months, from among 7 major shipyards (4 of which are state-owned).

Wouldn’t it be better to have the outside partners identify their preferred shipyards, since their primary incentive is directed toward contract performance rather than the results of political lobbying? One might add that if the chosen submarine vendor ends up disagreeing with India’s shipyard choice, it’s only going to prolong negotiations whose late timing and contract structure already guarantee a force crisis for India’s submarine fleet.

Other DAC clearances today include 2 SDV underwater commando delivery vehicles; up to INR 32 billion to buy and license-build about 300 Spike family launcher systems and 8,000 missiles; INR 20 billion to have the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board build about 360 more BMP-2 tracked IFVs under license; and INR 18.5 billion for 12 more license-built Do-228NG short-range transport and maritime surveillance aircraft from HAL. Sources: NDTV, “6 Made-in-India Submarines for Navy for 53,000 Crores” | IANS, “Defence ministry clears Israeli anti-tank missile, six submarines”.

 

[sancho]

Well... This concept is certainly a great one. And i dont think any Sub. was named in this new RFI. So we may very well see a competition between 216 and this one. Afterall $1.5 Bill is too much for a Scorpene or, 214 sized sub..

Not necessarily, since the MoD only scrapped the older tender to implement the privat industry production part, not to change the operational requirements of IN. So it's likely that they take the same subs that were on offer already, but insist that Indian and foreign partners team up first and make a joint offer. Btw, the larger and newly designed U216 and Barracuda SSKs will be more expensive than U214 and Scorpene, but I wouldn't give too much about the speculated costs in the media.

 

[Asian.Century]

It's a drop in the ocean for a weapon that is insufficient in numbers and expensive . Looks like India is buying show case technology for its largely ceremonial army just to look good. This will not make a significant dent in China or Pakistan.

Besides Pakistan has locally own made ATGM, equally in par, and cheaply produced and in thousands of numbers.

 

[acetophenol]

It's a drop in the ocean for a weapon that is insufficient in numbers and expensive . Looks like India is buying show case technology for its largely ceremonial army just to look good. This will not make a significant dent in China or Pakistan.

Besides Pakistan has locally own made ATGM, equally in par, and cheaply produced and in thousands of numbers.

Firstly,do not compare Spike with your Bakhtar Shikan(HJ-8). Both are generations apart. Also ,India has been producing varieties of ATGMs for years.

 

[sathya]

Let's get barracuda and help ourselves in arihant ..

 

[Asian.Century]

Firstly,do not compare Spike with your Bakhtar Shikan(HJ-8). Both are generations apart. Also ,India has been producing varieties of ATGMs for years.

LoL! Pakistan has many variants of BKs, Red Arrows and the most modern ATGMs it produces itself, while BK HJ-8 series is Chinese variant, let me put them for convenience and the last ones in the list are in par to anything Spike ATGM can provide in capabilities. while Baktar Shikan TOW-Capable like the BK TOW-BILAAM and Bakthar Shikan 2 are most effective :

Pakistan also has the latest Red Arrow 9 and Red Arrow 10 ATGWs - Anti-tank Guided Weapons, which it produces, in its in inventory.

Pakistani ATGM Weapon:


Baktar Shikan-1
Baktar Shikan-2

Baktar Shikan (HJ-8)
Baktar Shikan (HJ-8A)
Baktar Shikan (HJ-8C)
Baktar Shikan (HJ-8E)
Baktar Shikan (HJ-8L)

Baktar Shikan (TOW-1)
Baktar Shikan (TOW-1A )
Baktar Shikan (I-TOW )
Baktar Shikan (TOW-2 )
Baktar Shikan (TOW-2A)
Baktar Shikan (TOW-2B)
Baktar Shikan (TOW-2C)

Baktar Shikan (TOW-BLAAM)

Red Arrow 9
Red Arrow 10

 

[acetophenol]

LoL! Pakistan has many variants of BKs, Red Arrows and the most modern ATGMs it produces itself, while BK HJ-8 series is Chinese variant, let me put them for convenience and the last ones in the list are in par to anything Spike ATGM can provide in capabilities. while Baktar Shikan TOW-Capable like the BK TOW-BILAAM and Bakthar Shikan 2 are most effective :

Pakistan also has the latest Red Arrow 9 and Red Arrow 10 ATGWs - Anti-tank Guided Weapons, which it produces, in its in inventory.

Pakistani ATGM Weapon:


Baktar Shikan-1
Baktar Shikan-2

Baktar Shikan (HJ-8)
Baktar Shikan (HJ-8A)
Baktar Shikan (HJ-8C)
Baktar Shikan (HJ-8E)
Baktar Shikan (HJ-8L)

Baktar Shikan (TOW-1)
Baktar Shikan (TOW-1A )
Baktar Shikan (I-TOW )
Baktar Shikan (TOW-2 )
Baktar Shikan (TOW-2A)
Baktar Shikan (TOW-2B)
Baktar Shikan (TOW-2C)

Baktar Shikan (TOW-BLAAM)

Red Arrow 9
Red Arrow 10

What do you mean by 'TOW Capable'? And which variant of Bakhtar Shikan is -fourth generation
-fire and forget
-top attack
-Multi guidance system capable missile?

 

[Asian.Century]

What do you mean by 'TOW Capable'? And which variant of Bakhtar Shikan is -fourth generation
-fire, and forget
-top attack
-Multi guidance system capable missile?

The Bakthar Shikan 2, Red Arrow, Bhathar Shikan TOW, TOW 2A Missiles, TOW 2A Fly-to-buy Missiles, are both updated, fire, observe and forget system, with some top attack capabilities. As per the TOW 2A which Pakistan purchased from US, uses Guidance signals from the guidance computer are transmitted along two wires, which spool from the back of the missile to the control system on the missile.

The Bakthar Shikan or HJ8 series are much better than MILAN and M47 Dragon missiles.

Multiguidance missiles is not yet on BK 1 & 2s or HJ-8 series. But definitely the Red Arrow ATGWs - Anti-tank Multi-Guided Weapons have the multi guidance system missile capability, serving with Pakistan.

The success of the Bhaktar Shikan ATGM system, can be made that Pakistan+China has exported its variant to many countries like Albania, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Egypt, Ecuador, Kenya, Malaysia, Morocco, Peru, Sri Lanka, Sudan, UAE, Uruguay and Zimbabwe.


As for SPIKE, Only some variants of the missile are capable of making a top-attack profile through a "fire, observe and update" guidance method; but am not sure if India is buying these Missiles, generally the Spikes are 'fire and forget'.

Am not completely sure that Spike has the COMPLETE Multi-Guidance System Capable Missile though, as I assume its got some automatic guidance but its effectiveness is yet to confirmed.

Overall, SPIKE has a few advantages, but Pakistani updated ATGMs are more or less enough on par with Israeli Spikes, keeping the over all scope of battle scenario into context.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

The Bakthar Shikan 2, Red Arrow, Bhathar Shikan TOW, TOW 2A Missiles, TOW 2A Fly-to-buy Missiles, are both updated, fire, observe and forget system, with some top attack capabilities. As per the TOW 2A which Pakistan purchased from US, uses Guidance signals from the guidance computer are transmitted along two wires, which spool from the back of the missile to the control system on the missile.

The Bakthar Shikan or HJ8 series are much better than MILAN and M47 Dragon missiles.

Multiguidance missiles is not yet on BK 1 & 2s or HJ-8 series. But definitely the Red Arrow ATGWs - Anti-tank Multi-Guided Weapons have the multi guidance system missile capability, serving with Pakistan.

The success of the Bhaktar Shikan ATGM system, can be made that Pakistan+China has exported its variant to many countries like Albania, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Egypt, Ecuador, Kenya, Malaysia, Morocco, Peru, Sri Lanka, Sudan, UAE, Uruguay and Zimbabwe.


As for SPIKE, Only some variants of the missile are capable of making a top-attack profile through a "fire, observe and update" guidance method; but am not sure if India is buying these Missiles, generally the Spikes are 'fire and forget'.

Am not completely sure that Spike has the COMPLETE Multi-Guidance System Capable Missile though, as I assume its got some automatic guidance but its effectiveness is yet to confirmed.

Overall, SPIKE has a few advantages, but Pakistani updated ATGMs are more or less enough on par with Israeli Spikes, keeping the over all scope of battle scenario into context.

--
happpy that asian country giving competition to israle for arms developemnt ..
bravo.. pakistan
--
can you just bit explain in details and data about your claim of ,

but Pakistani updated ATGMs are more or less enough on par with Israeli Spikes, keeping the over all scope of battle scenario into context

 

[kurup]

LoL! Pakistan has many variants of BKs, Red Arrows and the most modern ATGMs it produces itself, while BK HJ-8 series is Chinese variant, let me put them for convenience and the last ones in the list are in par to anything Spike ATGM can provide in capabilities. while Baktar Shikan TOW-Capable like the BK TOW-BILAAM and Bakthar Shikan 2 are most effective :

Pakistan also has the latest Red Arrow 9 and Red Arrow 10 ATGWs - Anti-tank Guided Weapons, which it produces, in its in inventory.

Pakistani ATGM Weapon:


Baktar Shikan-1
Baktar Shikan-2

Baktar Shikan (HJ-8)
Baktar Shikan (HJ-8A)
Baktar Shikan (HJ-8C)
Baktar Shikan (HJ-8E)
Baktar Shikan (HJ-8L)

Baktar Shikan (TOW-1)
Baktar Shikan (TOW-1A )
Baktar Shikan (I-TOW )
Baktar Shikan (TOW-2 )
Baktar Shikan (TOW-2A)
Baktar Shikan (TOW-2B)
Baktar Shikan (TOW-2C)

Baktar Shikan (TOW-BLAAM)

Red Arrow 9
Red Arrow 10

Give link to your claims .