Rs 80,000 crore worth defence projects cleared, 6 submarines to be built in India

[Omega007]

So this is the final tally of all that was cleared to be "MADE IN INDIA"

1. 6 new submarines to be MADE IN INDIA by private players which will create a whole new eco system of vendors and sub vendors who are tuned to military standards. A private Industrial-Military complex in other words. Rs. 50-53000 Crores for this.

2. Two Swimmer Delivery Vehicle for INR 2,017 Crores or 165 Million $ for each 150 Tons "mini Submarine". (This might be US govt 2 govt purchase)

3. 3,200 Crores for Spike launchers and missiles. 321 launchers and 8,356 missiles. This will involve total ToT for large scale indigenous manufacturing. Final production of this missile will be worth Rs. 20,000 Crores or 3.2 Billion $. Any Idea how many missiles that would be ?

4. 1,850 crores for 12 Dornier which are completely made in India, including its engine the TPE 331-5.

5. 1,800 Cr for 368 BMP-2 which is also completely made in India.

6. 740 Cr for 1,768 railway wagons to transport Tanks, missiles etc which is completely made in India.

7. 662 cr for 1,761 radio relay containers which is also made in India.

8. 1,436 crores for Russian Uran missiles for IN ships.

Which means 76,500 Crores is directly being pumped into India and not into any foreign countries.

Submarine plan was stuck with the UPA since 2007. Even the tender was not issued for the last 7 years under UPA

NDA govt. has directed the DAC to identify the potential shipyards within 6 weeks and issue RFP to them ....

......and then there are others who continue to lament there is no difference between UPA and NDA

This ToT thing is a joke to be honest.

 

[Sahasranama]

This ToT thing is a joke to be honest.

Only when made to a govt. org. When you give it to a private player, you kick start an entire Industrial sector.

There is an interesting old case study of how in the early days, both Premier Padmani and Toyota brought an Fiat engine with ToT. That engine kick started the entire Japanese Automotive industry while Premier padmani shut down.

 

[Omega007]

It's a drop in the ocean for a weapon that is insufficient in numbers and expensive . Looks like India is buying show case technology for its largely ceremonial army just to look good. This will not make a significant dent in China or Pakistan.

Besides Pakistan has locally own made ATGM, equally in par, and cheaply produced and in thousands of numbers.

You mean that ancient wire guided junk you call Baktar Shikan or something.Well,then I've got a news for you,Indian Army already posses an arsenal of 25 thousand Milan 2T,an equal numbers of Konkurs M and about 6000 Kornet E ATGMs.And what do you mean by ceremonial you dumbfuck moron??This 'ceremonial' Army kicked the fucking skinny arses of your Army of supermen for countless times in the past,at least have some shame when you spew such bs.Oh and by the way,at least our 'largely ceremonial' Army personnel doesn't surrender to rag tag militants en-mass like what your so Professional Army guys including a Lt Colonel did back in 2007 when a company of 120 men in a convoy of 16 trucks surrendered to Taliban fighters without a fight!!What an achievement that was!!Really mind blowing..........APPLAUD!!

The Bakthar Shikan 2, Red Arrow, Bhathar Shikan TOW, TOW 2A Missiles, TOW 2A Fly-to-buy Missiles, are both updated, fire, observe and forget system, with some top attack capabilities. As per the TOW 2A which Pakistan purchased from US, uses Guidance signals from the guidance computer are transmitted along two wires, which spool from the back of the missile to the control system on the missile.

The Bakthar Shikan or HJ8 series are much better than MILAN and M47 Dragon missiles.

Multiguidance missiles is not yet on BK 1 & 2s or HJ-8 series. But definitely the Red Arrow ATGWs - Anti-tank Multi-Guided Weapons have the multi guidance system missile capability, serving with Pakistan.

The success of the Bhaktar Shikan ATGM system, can be made that Pakistan+China has exported its variant to many countries like Albania, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Egypt, Ecuador, Kenya, Malaysia, Morocco, Peru, Sri Lanka, Sudan, UAE, Uruguay and Zimbabwe.


As for SPIKE, Only some variants of the missile are capable of making a top-attack profile through a "fire, observe and update" guidance method; but am not sure if India is buying these Missiles, generally the Spikes are 'fire and forget'.

Am not completely sure that Spike has the COMPLETE Multi-Guidance System Capable Missile though, as I assume its got some automatic guidance but its effectiveness is yet to confirmed.

Overall, SPIKE has a few advantages, but Pakistani updated ATGMs are more or less enough on par with Israeli Spikes, keeping the over all scope of battle scenario into context.

All of the missiles you mentioned are of older generation technology with the cumbersome wire guidance method which by today's standards are just obsolete junks.That's why we are replacing similar systems in our inventory with 3rd generation fire and forget Spike and Javelin fulfilling the shoulder launched category and Nag and Helina for vehicle launched one.

And Baktar Shikan is equivalent to Spike!!Really!!That is what I like to call madrassa logic.

 

[ROCK1NG]

Firstly,do not compare Spike with your Bakhtar Shikan(HJ-8). Both are generations apart. Also ,India has been producing varieties of ATGMs for years.

But does it get the job done??

 

[acetophenol]

But does it get the job done??

Even a giant stone catapult may get the job of killing a tank done for you if the conditions are favourable.

 

[Asian.Century]

Give link to your claims .

Complete info about Pakistani ATGMS : Pakistani ATGMs

Source of BKs much better than French MILAN and US, M47 Dragon missiles: HJ-8 :

"The performance of the "Hongjian-8E" is similar to the "TOW" anti-tank missiles of the US army, and is better than the German and French "Milan" anti-tank missile." while after HJ-8E, the BK 2, HJ-8L variants much upgraded to modern standards.

Red Arrow, Guided Weapons Anti-tank weapon: ATGWs still hit the spot: Anti-tank guided weapons ~ ASIAN DEFENCE

Quoted from link, "Most countries still deploy SACLOS ATGWs, while others have shifted to 'fire-and-forget' ATGWs such as the Raytheon/Lockheed Martin Javelin. The Israel Defense Force (IDF), for example, has deployed the RAFAEL Advanced Defence Systems "Spike" family that can be used in the fire-and-forget and fire-and-observe roles."

Just to give you an idea about Red Arrow 8 previous version of Red Arrow 9: "Red Arrow 8, which has also as a similar SACLOS guidance system", while Red Arrow 9 & 10 has shifted to fire and forget ATGWs serving with Pakistan Army.

Futher the upgraded Red Arrow 8 C variant: from link, "Red Arrow 8C a few years later with a tandem HEAT warhead and range increased to 3,500 m."The Red Arrow 8E has a digital guidance system and a tandem HEAT warhead with a maximum range of 4,000 m, while the Red Arrow 8F with two warheads - HEAT and HE - has been developed to defeat bunkers."

Some top attack capability, quoted again, " The Red Arrow 8 FAE (fuel air explosive) is being marketed as well as the latest Red Arrow 8H with a tandem HEAT warhead and a range of 4,000 m. The Red Arrow 8 has been exported to a number of countries including Bangladesh and also forms the basis for the Pakistani Institute of Industrial Control Systems Baktar Shikan ATGW. " Which Pakistan also exports to other countries in the shape of much upgraded Baktar Shikan 2 ARGW.

While, The Red Arrow 9A (which is also referred to as the SD-1 Lightning) features millimetre wave command guidance, while the Red Arrow 9B is a laser beam riding ATGW, which is similar in appearance to the Israel Military Industries MAPATS ATGW.

And, The Red Arrow 10 has a semi-active laser (SAL) guidance system and is claimed to have a maximum range of 8 km. Targets can be designated from the launcher itself, an associated target launching platform or from a tripod mounted man-portable system."

Quite alot of info, there.

--
bravo.. pakistan
--
can you just bit explain in details and data about your claim of ,

but Pakistani updated ATGMs are more or less enough on par with Israeli Spikes, keeping the over all scope of battle scenario into context

Basically I donot claim, Pakistan or China has in their inventory, better than Israeli Spike, BUT rather I call it "on par" to the Spike system. What I mean is, if ATGMs are offensive and defensive weapons...with multiplex of ATGMs, and ATGWs Pakistan has in its inventory it is enough to get the capability and purpose of use. For example targetting and detruction of Indain artillery, armoured carries and T-90 tank series, including anti-strutucre, anti-armour, can be taken out with Pakistan or China ATGM / ATQWs, where SPIKE does not offer something too special apart from few new advatages. And since with a combination of battle weapon system, the tactics and targets of ATGMs can easily be neutralised as what the SPIKE capability does.

So Isreali Spike does not offer anything really a generation ahead, better than what Pakistan or China currently has in its inventory. Remember BK in Syrian rebels hands took out tanks.I hope it explains more, if you read the links and comments I posted above.

 

[narcon]

Russian nuclear sub test-fires Bulava strategic missile (VIDEO) — RT News

With an operational range of 10,000 kilometers, Bulavas are able to carry 10 hypersonic, individually guided, maneuverable nuclear warheads with a yield of 100–150 kilotons each.

India is preparing for such underlined (above) yield MIRVs

 

[narcon]

Complete info about Pakistani ATGMS : Pakistani ATGMs

Source of BKs much better than French MILAN

Baktar Shikan is old tech = wire guided SACLOS which Pakistan is selling cheap = 2500 USD
Wire guided ATGMs have their own limitations. Wire snaps or ATGM works only upto the length of it. Can not work in vegetated/forest area....

Baktar Shikan launcher weight alone is 60 KG plus missile weight
Whereas whole spike system is 43 KG..

 

[pursuit of happiness]

Complete info about Pakistani ATGMS : Pakistani ATGMs

Source of BKs much better than French MILAN and US, M47 Dragon missiles: HJ-8 :

"The performance of the "Hongjian-8E" is similar to the "TOW" anti-tank missiles of the US army, and is better than the German and French "Milan" anti-tank missile." while after HJ-8E, the BK 2, HJ-8L variants much upgraded to modern standards.

Red Arrow, Guided Weapons Anti-tank weapon: ATGWs still hit the spot: Anti-tank guided weapons ~ ASIAN DEFENCE

Quoted from link, "Most countries still deploy SACLOS ATGWs, while others have shifted to 'fire-and-forget' ATGWs such as the Raytheon/Lockheed Martin Javelin. The Israel Defense Force (IDF), for example, has deployed the RAFAEL Advanced Defence Systems "Spike" family that can be used in the fire-and-forget and fire-and-observe roles."

Just to give you an idea about Red Arrow 8 previous version of Red Arrow 9: "Red Arrow 8, which has also as a similar SACLOS guidance system", while Red Arrow 9 & 10 has shifted to fire and forget ATGWs serving with Pakistan Army.

Futher the upgraded Red Arrow 8 C variant: from link, "Red Arrow 8C a few years later with a tandem HEAT warhead and range increased to 3,500 m."The Red Arrow 8E has a digital guidance system and a tandem HEAT warhead with a maximum range of 4,000 m, while the Red Arrow 8F with two warheads - HEAT and HE - has been developed to defeat bunkers."

Some top attack capability, quoted again, " The Red Arrow 8 FAE (fuel air explosive) is being marketed as well as the latest Red Arrow 8H with a tandem HEAT warhead and a range of 4,000 m. The Red Arrow 8 has been exported to a number of countries including Bangladesh and also forms the basis for the Pakistani Institute of Industrial Control Systems Baktar Shikan ATGW. " Which Pakistan also exports to other countries in the shape of much upgraded Baktar Shikan 2 ARGW.

While, The Red Arrow 9A (which is also referred to as the SD-1 Lightning) features millimetre wave command guidance, while the Red Arrow 9B is a laser beam riding ATGW, which is similar in appearance to the Israel Military Industries MAPATS ATGW.

And, The Red Arrow 10 has a semi-active laser (SAL) guidance system and is claimed to have a maximum range of 8 km. Targets can be designated from the launcher itself, an associated target launching platform or from a tripod mounted man-portable system."

Quite alot of info, there.




Basically I donot claim, Pakistan or China has in their inventory, better than Israeli Spike, BUT rather I call it "on par" to the Spike system. What I mean is, if ATGMs are offensive and defensive weapons...with multiplex of ATGMs, and ATGWs Pakistan has in its inventory it is enough to get the capability and purpose of use. For example targetting and detruction of Indain artillery, armoured carries and T-90 tank series, including anti-strutucre, anti-armour, can be taken out with Pakistan or China ATGM / ATQWs, where SPIKE does not offer something too special apart from few new advatages. And since with a combination of battle weapon system, the tactics and targets of ATGMs can easily be neutralised as what the SPIKE capability does.

So Isreali Spike does not offer anything really a generation ahead, better than what Pakistan or China currently has in its inventory. Remember BK in Syrian rebels hands took out tanks.I hope it explains more, if you read the links and comments I posted above.

--
i just wanted to say when you say on par/better than
then please put data
views cant be consider valid for deciding who is better.
so pleae prove with data

 

[narcon]

Spike's penetration rate is 1000 MM against which Baktar does not come close...
While Spike is 4th generation. Bakter is 2nd generation ..

 

[Hareeshu IA MBT]

The Navy currently has 13 operational submarines and the target set in 1999 IN will have 24 subs by 2030 ????
Bloody hell. Why are we not realise the the present scenario changing shapes even now and then . In 1999 we had threat from different prospective. Its 2014 and we are going towards 2015 . Its nearly 16 years or will be 20 yrs when the new P75I starts delivery. In 1999 Pakistan had some 6/7 submarines . Our only threat in 1999. But look at today's situation . Pakistan them self ordered to 6 chinese submarines. Which will make their total to 12/14... They retire their old subs even by 2025 or 2020 unless they get replacement from China or in future from other nations like Iran or some one ... My point is this 24 subs for Indian navy is ok by 2030 . If we have to fight a war or to punish Pakistan . But can we fool ourself by en or in China's 60 submarines threat ? We need to match with numbers . Submarine fleets are most effective but th same time anti submarine warfare is been upgraded day by day . So it will be irrelevant if our MOD wish to have 24 submarine by 2030. I put more trust on our new PM Modi ... He is a wise man himself. I expect numbers should be 30 in case of war with Pakistan and China . And another batch of 20+ to safe gaurd our waste cash rich Richie rich Indian Waters. We need at least 50 by 2030 . And we need to maintain this strength for the next decades as well . Increase our fleet if needed . But not less than 50 if we have enemy or not . Doesn't matter . Just have it

 

[sathya]

We can ramp up the numbers only when indigenous submarine Is developed..
Otherwise all money will go elsewhere ..

Once arihant is proved, I believe subs will be ramped up..

 

[Hareeshu IA MBT]

E="kaku1, post: 6339052, member: 28825"]No, I heard the news that German and Russian want to jump in P-75 A/I , dont know many names. First the in 2005 MoD did the disaster selecting Scorpene instead of Type 212/214. It strained the MDL, which created a production line for German, they have to convert it to French.

But now if we go, again German and Russian, dont know, what would happen, then its much better that we give contract to L&T for designing and manufacturing new sub.[/QUOTE]
Rightly said . Its the time to develop our submarine building capacity. Let go ahead with p75i . If needed increase the numbers of scorpion subs . But let's start building new grown submarines .
In three categories . Small , medium , large conventional subs. Rope in 2 or three private players . Start the work with govt funding . We need he'll lot of submarines for the next 50 years.

But stop being the cheapest but spend the full amount which we might pay to get new subs. The same amount should be invested . If we succeed we can export to nations of our interest .

Three things can be achieved. 1) Submarines for navy 2) Geopolitical advantage of being a weapon exporter
3) It will create a road for futuristic submarines for the future . And we can improve our underwater warfare ccapabilities as building and mass production of sub will give us the knowledge of rival's sub capacity

 

[Hareeshu IA MBT]

TE="shaheenmissile, post: 6339609, member: 157862"]View attachment 138105[/QUOTE]
Rafale looks massive