Soldiers don't hate soldiers.....

[Joe Shearer]

I'm lazy. And digging is strenuous work.

But I am loving it.

Just looking forward to someone whacking that 28 year old "student"

Anybody denying the Indian Constitution while being an Indian citizen, and opposing the rule of law under that Constitution, is an anti-national. These simplistic formulations, ".....looking forward to someone whacking that 28 year old 'student'...." for instance, make you an anti-national.

Ironic.

Someone uses a Pakistani forum to express his opposition to the Pakistani way of doing things by himself doing things or supporting the doing of things the Pakistani way - lawless and violent and in breach of its own constitution and of the rule of law. Not just ironic, downright brilliant in its obtuseness, and cosmic in its timing, just when Pakistan is climbing out of that pit.

 

[doppelganger]

Anybody denying the Indian Constitution while being an Indian citizen, and opposing the rule of law under that Constitution, is an anti-national. These simplistic formulations, ".....looking forward to someone whacking that 28 year old 'student'...." for instance, make you an anti-national.

Ironic.

Someone uses a Pakistani forum to express his opposition to the Pakistani way of doing things by himself doing things or supporting the doing of things the Pakistani way - lawless and violent and in breach of its own constitution and of the rule of law. Not just ironic, downright brilliant in its obtuseness, and cosmic in its timing, just when Pakistan is climbing out of that pit.

What's wrong with a good old fashioned whacking?

Have you never been whacked?

Have you never whacked someone?

Every man (I believe) needs a good proper solid whacking (preferably no-break bones and teeth) at least once in his life for him to actually grow up and realize he's no longer a kid and this the real world.

@Color_Less_Sky

 

[Icarus]

Anybody denying the Indian Constitution while being an Indian citizen, and opposing the rule of law under that Constitution, is an anti-national. These simplistic formulations, ".....looking forward to someone whacking that 28 year old 'student'...." for instance, make you an anti-national.

Ironic.

Someone uses a Pakistani forum to express his opposition to the Pakistani way of doing things by himself doing things or supporting the doing of things the Pakistani way - lawless and violent and in breach of its own constitution and of the rule of law. Not just ironic, downright brilliant in its obtuseness, and cosmic in its timing, just when Pakistan is climbing out of that pit.

I would concur, I understand that this is an Indian matter and what I say does not account for much. However, I feel that I should say this. I do not have much to be envious of when I think of India, except for the forests of the South and their slightly more tolerant approach to the variability of opinion. A trait that seems to be receding. You might not feel so right now, but you will come to regret this, it is easy to sacrifice liberty in search for temporary security but only afterwards do you realize that going back is easier said that done.
And that is how we came to be the way we are, Pakistan was not always intolerant, it was not always bigoted, we started off fairly liberal at one time, one could say even more than India itself. But then in the aftermath of 1971, when we desperately needed something to anchor on to, we decided to trade in our liberty for some psychological security that 'whacking'' offered. And so we whacked everyone, from separatists, to leftists and right down to the shopkeeper who did not pull down his shutter when it was time for prayer. This was almost 3 and a half decades ago but the effects of these actions and the psyche it generated continues to haunt us to this day. To the point that you can kill a Governer for talking about amending laws and still become the hero. Voicing a dissenting opinion is somehow a greater vice than murder. That is what we have become and now, you are walking the same path that we did. It does not lead to any place where I would wish even my worst enemy to find themselves.
On the surface, everything will be fine, if you conform, you will belong. But then again, an artificial calm has a more violent and spontaneous breakdown.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What's wrong with a good old fashioned whacking?

Have you never been whacked?

Have you never whacked someone?

Every man (I believe) needs a good proper solid whacking (preferably no-break bones and teeth) at least once in his life for him to actually grow up and realize he's no longer a kid and this the real world.

@Color_Less_Sky

THAT'S different!

I would concur, I understand that this is an Indian matter and what I say does not account for much. However, I feel that I should say this. I do not have much to be envious of when I think of India, except for the forests of the South and their slightly more tolerant approach to the variability of opinion. A trait that seems to be receding. You might not feel so right now, but you will come to regret this, it is easy to sacrifice liberty in search for temporary security but only afterwards do you realize that going back is easier said that done.
And that is how we came to be the way we are, Pakistan was not always intolerant, it was not always bigoted, we started off fairly liberal at one time, one could say even more than India itself. But then in the aftermath of 1971, when we desperately needed something to anchor on to, we decided to trade in our liberty for some psychological security that 'whacking'' offered. And so we whacked everyone, from separatists, to leftists and right down to the shopkeeper who did not pull down his shutter when it was time for prayer. This was almost 3 and a half decades ago but the effects of these actions and the psyche it generated continues to haunt us to this day. To the point that you can kill a Governer for talking about amending laws and still become the hero. Voicing a dissenting opinion is somehow a greater vice than murder. That is what we have become and now, you are walking the same path that we did. It does not lead to any place where I would wish even my worst enemy to find themselves.
On the surface, everything will be fine, if you conform, you will belong. But then again, an artificial calm has a more violent and spontaneous breakdown.

People keep telling me about how peaceful and quiet it is, in Gujarat, in Rajasthan, in Madhya Pradesh, in Chhatisgarh, and in Haryana, or in Goa. That is a frightening silence. The silence of the graveyard. And they're trying to get it like that in other parts as well. They've just done a brilliant job of polarising India. Right across the middle.

 

[doppelganger]

They've just done a brilliant job of polarising India. Right across the middle.

There is no middle.

The middle shifted while you were still atop your ivory tower.

Quite some time ago.

Some of you just didn't get the memo.

 

[Desertfalcon]

I would concur, I understand that this is an Indian matter and what I say does not account for much. However, I feel that I should say this. I do not have much to be envious of when I think of India, except for the forests of the South and their slightly more tolerant approach to the variability of opinion. A trait that seems to be receding. You might not feel so right now, but you will come to regret this, it is easy to sacrifice liberty in search for temporary security but only afterwards do you realize that going back is easier said that done.
And that is how we came to be the way we are, Pakistan was not always intolerant, it was not always bigoted, we started off fairly liberal at one time, one could say even more than India itself. But then in the aftermath of 1971, when we desperately needed something to anchor on to, we decided to trade in our liberty for some psychological security that 'whacking'' offered. And so we whacked everyone, from separatists, to leftists and right down to the shopkeeper who did not pull down his shutter when it was time for prayer. This was almost 3 and a half decades ago but the effects of these actions and the psyche it generated continues to haunt us to this day. To the point that you can kill a Governer for talking about amending laws and still become the hero. Voicing a dissenting opinion is somehow a greater vice than murder. That is what we have become and now, you are walking the same path that we did. It does not lead to any place where I would wish even my worst enemy to find themselves.
On the surface, everything will be fine, if you conform, you will belong. But then again, an artificial calm has a more violent and spontaneous breakdown.

There are a lot of great lessons to be learned in this. A painfully honest assessment.

 

[doppelganger]

@Desertfalcon @Icarus @Joe Shearer

There is a fly in the self congratulatory doomsday ointment.

Hinduism is not Islam.

You can run narratives around that simple fundamental fact.

Now.

But the four of us will know who was right and who wrong twenty years from now as retired men.

 

[Desertfalcon]

@Desertfalcon @Icarus @Joe Shearer

There is a fly in the self congratulatory doomsday ointment.

Hinduism is not Islam.

You can run narratives around that simple fundamental fact.

Now.

But the four of us will know who was right and who wrong twenty years from now as retired men.

Well, I'm already retired and I don't think it has much to do with Hinduism vs. Islam. Perhaps you should read through Icarus' post again.

 

[Icarus]

@Desertfalcon @Icarus @Joe Shearer

There is a fly in the self congratulatory doomsday ointment.

Hinduism is not Islam.

You can run narratives around that simple fundamental fact.

Now.

But the four of us will know who was right and who wrong twenty years from now as retired men.

If you keep telling yourself that, pretty soon there won't be much to justify either. If you remember, the Thags were not muslims either. The propensity for violence exists in all human beings, it is innate, we merely need to find something to channel it into a form where we can hope to justify it. Any ideal can be mutilated in a bid to justify terrible acts.
When this all started, we also consoled ourselves that we are essentially of Sufi stock and that violence will not be able to permeate our social fabric. Well, guess what, we were wrong.
But you are entitled to make your own mistakes doc. There's a special kind of maturity that comes with falling into the ditch you had been warned off for yourself and then feeling the horrid taste of blood and dirt in your own mouth. That is something that you can experience, but not comprehend through forewarning.

 

[doppelganger]

Well, I'm already retired and I don't think it has much to do with Hinduism vs. Islam. Perhaps you should read through Icarus' post again.

Sir, in this part of the world, it's only about Hinduism and Islam.

The bigger picture.

The rest floats at the periphery.

Flotsam. Jetsam.

Don't let it cloud the view.

If you keep telling yourself that, pretty soon there won't be much to justify either. If you remember, the Thags were not muslims either. The propensity for violence exists in all human beings, it is innate, we merely need to find something to channel it into a form where we can hope to justify it. Any ideal can be mutilated in a bid to justify terrible acts.
When this all started, we also consoled ourselves that we are essentially of Sufi stock and that violence will not be able to permeate our social fabric. Well, guess what, we were wrong.
But you are entitled to make your own mistakes doc. There's a special kind of maturity that comes with falling into the ditch you had been warned off for yourself and then feeling the horrid taste of blood and dirt in your own mouth. That is something that you can experience, but not comprehend through forewarning.

As we speak to each other, I have a best friend, who happens to be Muslim but has never been an issue before, who has not whatsapped or called me for over two weeks now because I gave him a piece of my mind about his obsession with Modi and the BJP and the Sangh.

That's all he talks and posts about on FB.

It has consumed him.

And I'm afraid it has changed him.

Should only Hindus always reach out?

What problem do Muslims have in India?

They will be the first to agree what India is vs the rest of the world when it comes to Muslims.

Then what's with the paranoia and victim complex?

 

[Desertfalcon]

Sir, in this part of the world, it's only about Hinduism and Islam.

The bigger picture.

The rest floats at the periphery.

Flotsam. Jetsam.

Don't let it cloud the view.

Icarus' answer just above you own post here is better than I could articulate.

You know in Ireland, Protestants and Catholics have a history of fighting and killing one another, for about 500 years. The history of that brutality is gut-turning. They were utterly convinced that they were of such different cultures, values, and ideas, that it would always go on until one side completely conquered and decimated the other. It never happened and yet, all of the sudden in the 1990's, the violence pretty much stopped. They are still religiously and politically divided. How did it happen? Education, economic development, more travel between the two halves of Ireland; all those things helped, but what really happened is that the first generation of Irish Protestants and Catholics came along....that just stopped hating. They just quit. They chose tolerance over fear. They chose the future over the past. Granted, an imperfect analogy for sure, but it can happen.

 

[Icarus]

As we speak to each other, I have a best friend, who happens to be Muslim but has never been an issue before, who has not whatsapped or called me for over two weeks now because I gave him a piece of my mind about his obsession with Modi and the BJP and the Sangh.

That's all he talks and posts about on FB.

It has consumed him.

And I'm afraid it has changed him.

Should only Hindus always reach out?

What problem do Muslims have in India?

They will be the first to agree what India is vs the rest of the world when it comes to Muslims.

Then what's with the paranoia and victim complex?

Politics gets the best of everyone, I don't think that its a religious issue, so to speak. I have friends who support the PTI, I supported the PTI but no longer do so. We don't talk, which is foolish but that's how they want it. We have no religious differences yet our situation is surprisingly similar to the one you chalked out for me.

 

[Joe Shearer]

There are a lot of great lessons to be learned in this. A painfully honest assessment.

But brilliant in its laconic terse way. I enjoyed reading it, and deeply envied them for their slow painful climb back to normalcy. Just when we are stumbling. Just when we happen to be on the verge of economic fast forward.

Looks like God has changed sides.

Icarus' answer just above you own post here is better than I could articulate.

You know in Ireland, Protestants and Catholics have a history of fighting and killing one another, for about 500 years. The history of that brutality is gut-turning. They were utterly convinced that they were of such different cultures, values, and ideas, that it would always go on until one side completely conquered and decimated the other. It never happened and yet, all of the sudden in the 1990's, the violence pretty much stopped. They are still religiously and politically divided. How did it happen? Education, economic development, more travel between the two halves of Ireland; all those things helped, but what really happened is that the first generation of Irish Protestants and Catholics came along....that just stopped hating. They just quit. They chose tolerance over fear. They chose the future over the past. Granted, an imperfect analogy for sure, but it can happen.

I firmly believe that this will happen. Some day. Maybe not in my life time, but I hope - I am certain - my daughter will live to see it and rejoice.

Well, I'm already retired and I don't think it has much to do with Hinduism vs. Islam. Perhaps you should read through Icarus' post again.

And I suspect I shade you a few years.....

 

[doppelganger]

@Joe Shearer

You call 10 polio vaccine workers being butchered (neither new nor unprecedented either) a "slow painful climb back to normalcy"

And India is stumbling.

Are using the same yardstick here?

 

[Icarus]

@Joe Shearer

You call 10 polio vaccine workers being butchered (neither new nor unprecedented either) a "slow painful climb back to normalcy"

And India is stumbling.

Are using the same yardstick here?

We didn't spontaneously land in a position where polio workers were being killed (btw, I'm pretty sure that's not fresh news). It took time and we got to it in small increments of time. As for the climb back to normalcy, sure it might seem like we're still pretty f-ed up and by all reasonable standards, we are. But consider the fact that just over half a decade ago, the Taliban were less than a 100km from the national rockets and Muslim Khan was boasting on TV about how he was soon going to be rolling into the capital with his men.