The India Pakistan geographical divide is at least 1600 years old

[Pakistani E]

Don't take it seriously. It's just a punchline.

Like a Maratha passing off as a Baloch.

Cheers, Doc

I once had a doctor laugh at me when I described a symptom. Is this normal?

 

[padamchen]

I once had a doctor laugh at me when I described a symptom. Is this normal?

No man. That was rude and elitist.

Sadly in this day of hi fi (and commercially rewarding) batteries of investigations, history taking and a thorough system based clinical examination is a lost art.

As most oldies will tell you, I don't do rude and elitist ...

Cheers, Doc

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hehe, it was simple enough (to see). I even wrote the original post mentioning you were one of the posters who was universally respected here, including by myself. But then I thought, what the hell, let's get some interactions out of you first. It's not every day that one gets to converse with such a titan of PDF such as yourself.

I'm ANGUISHED.

And to think that you are a respectable banker

 

[Pakistani E]

respectable banker

An oxymoron as big as a "Liberal extremist".

But thank you, I read your reply to my post on your birthday thread and it's very encouraging to see someone like you following my posts!

No man. That was rude and elitist.

Sadly in this day of hi fi (and commercially rewarding) batteries of investigations, history taking and a thorough system based clinical examination is a lost art.

As most oldies will tell you, I don't do rude and elitist ...

Cheers, Doc

He was nearing retirement, so I let it go, he was a family doctor for over a decade and otherwise a thorough professional. And I don't think 40s is old.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I believe this divide is much more older than 1600 and goes all the way back to the Indus Valley Civilization.

Even if you look in the Mahabharata, there are many examples, one being of how it speaks about how the three main kingdoms of the Indus and some Central Asian tribes share the same cultural affinity.

"The Prasthalas, the Madras, the Gandharas, the Arattas, those called Khasas, the Vasatis, the Sindhus and the Sauviras are almost as blamable in their practices." (8:44)

To a man with a hammer, every problem in the world looks like a nail. If you are really serious and are not twitching out factoids to make an all too specious a case, you will be able to discern in these descriptions the gradually increasing space, cultural, religious and linguistic, between the tribes who had stayed behind, the tribes who migrated but stayed in touch and the tribes who also migrated but were gradually, steadily gravitating to the increasing attraction of the powerful, iron-wielding eastern lands. The Mahabharata still describes an upper Indian political scenario where the great power centres were roughly centred about Delhi, the older regions to the north-east, the west and the south-west were known, and seen to be drifting away, and the power of the eastern states, that of the hero Krishna's maternal uncle, Kamsa, being an example, the gift of the powerful kingdom of Anga to the hero Karna being another, was slowly increasing. This was a prelude to the growth of the menacing power of the Magadhan state, that in time crushed all others and built the first not-from-epic-sources Indian empire, perhaps some nine hundred years later.

The relationship between the events - if ever they existed - and individuals of the Mahabharata and the great period of Sandracottos/Chandragupta and the rise and rise of the Magadhan state might be compared to the relationship between the probably Mycenaean heroes of the Iliad and the Odyssey of Homer, forebears of the Greeks of the Battle of Marathon, or the Battle of Salamis, or the glorious and lesser-known Battle of Plataea.

To return to your point, what you found described was not the inherent and permanent difference between two racial stocks but the slow drifting apart of friends and neighbours increasingly separated by time and space. The Gandhara that you cite gave the imperial family a daughter, Gandhari, and an astute but crooked manipulative brother-in-law to the High King, the uncle of the Kauravas, Shakuni. They were not different stock, just far-distant kinfolk living too far away to keep in touch with the politics of the centre.

Later, during the battle proper, we are introduced to the ferocious horse-borne warriors, the Parama Kamboja, hard-riding cavalry that could be staved off only with great difficulty, only by the united efforts of several of the heroes. Already these kinfolk were drifting away for each generation spent away; by 600 BC, Panini the grammarian, reputedly from those same parts, was able to discuss verbs and verb-forms that were 'archaic', and no longer belonged to the rigidly-defined derivative of the Indo-Aryan in which the Vedas were composed, a derivative which came to be known as 'the polished tongue', Sanskrit.

Again, it needs to be emphasised: what has been singled out and described is the natural linguistic phenomenon of formation and differentiation of dialects of the same language. In much the same way, Indo-Iranian had split into Iranian and Indo-Aryan, so close even within the Avesta and the Rg Veda forms of each that scholars of the one could follow the other, indeed, so close that knowledge of the Avestan form of Iranian was helpful for a full understanding of the Vedas, and could guide one through the rapids and shoals of Vedic Indo-Aryan, and precisely the same situation holding for knowledge of Indo-Aryan, the matrix from which Sanskrit was derived.

It is the same situation, with regard to social custom, ritual practice and with regard to use of language, that may be seen in real life in the differences in dialect between the one that is native to me, the dialect presently spoken in Dhaka, and the over-cultivated one spoken by the gentry of Calcutta.

These differences are not good enough to serve as a dividing mark between neighbouring ethnicities.

 

[Ahmad Sajjad Paracha]

Even without going in history difference in skin tones, complexion or habits is evidence

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Here are DETAILED Military maps of the three Most powerful empires in the Post Mauryan cum pre-Islamic period
You see time and again either they are stopped way before Sutlej or they are stopped in the Sialkot,Gujarat area....All of them failed to take Indus

Starting with Harsha vardhana of the Pusyabhutis ...One of the most celebrated rulers of Ancient India who is known even to this day

Now the mighty Guptas---The Greatest of Hindu Empires and possibly the only time when a Hindu empire was as mighty as any other contemporary empire or nomadic confederacy in the world..They also could extend to Sialkot and no further

Third The Rajput Empire of the Gurajara Pratiharas..they extended to just a few miles west of Silakot, and that's it....but Gujarat,Sialkot sector was not under their command during the time of their greatest extent between 890 and 920 AD

@Joe Shearer Thank you for your Massive contributions...are you a professional Historian? This level of knowledge seems out of reach of even the most dogged of amateur historians


Can we please have an Ask @Joe Shearer on History Thread? A single thread where your answers to all the questions are collated and where industrious members will always link others to if any questions regarding history were to come up?

 

[U-571]

what are we even kidding?

racially and historically the so called Pakistan or north west india was always part of sub continent history, india was never one single united kingdom but an aggregate of kingdoms

north indians including pakistan always had some type of commonality when it comes to historic kingdoms but the south india never had one

the gupta and maurya ruled pakistan and afghanistan but never ruled south india

entire pakistan was hindu and buddhist before arrival of islam, buddhism extended back all the way to afghanistan

i have seen many videos and one afghani guy did his DNA test and ound that he had more indian part in him than the caucasian part

afghans are ethnically also mixed historically with indians as well

culturally the entire south east asia is under the influence of indian culture

including burma, thailand, malaysia, indonesia, old indian hindu temples can be seen in combodia (angor wat)

before arrival of islam, sanskrit was the lnguage of malay people

kingdoms dont dictate shared history the culture does and pakistan is culturally, socially, and geologically linked with india

west of indus river is not so much

 

[Ahmad Sajjad Paracha]

Could u kindly elaborate the point that how historical east of river indus pakistan can be linked to norsemen?and who are actually norsemen ? So a better insight could be gained regading this thread.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Could u kindly elaborate the point that how historical east of river indus pakistan can be linked to norsemen?and who are actually norsemen ? So a better insight could be gained regading this thread.

Norsemen are Northern Vikings who settled later in France,Italy,England..Converted to Christianity and gave up their raiding warlike ways for the most parts


East of River Indus till Mathura had been always settled by nomadic warlike tribes who gave up their nomadic lifestyle and took up agriculture......These are the Indo-Greeks from Balkh, Scythians,Kushanas,Yuezhis,Wusuns,Alchon Huns,Kidarites .....A wild guess but educated guess would be that around 20% of the paternal lineages in the Punjab,Sindh region descend from these settled nomadic tribes

 

[xyxmt]

In a country where travelling west of Satluge river was a pop for centuries thinks people on the other side are same as us, nice fantasy

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

In a country where travelling west of Satluge river was a pop for centuries thinks people on the other side are same as us, nice fantasy

crossing west of Indus was Paap for centuries, not west of Sutlej

 

[Ahmad Sajjad Paracha]

Norsemen are Northern Vikings who settled later in France,Italy,England..Converted to Christianity and gave up their raiding warlike ways for the most parts


East of River Indus till Mathura had been always settled by nomadic warlike tribes who gave up their nomadic lifestyle and took up agriculture......These are the Indo-Greeks from Balkh, Scythians,Kushanas,Yuezhis,Wusuns,Alchon Huns,Kidarites .....A wild guess but educated guess would be that around 20% of the paternal lineages in the Punjab,Sindh region descend from these settled nomadic tribes

Thank you so much for your input but if ahmad shah abdali was huns descendent then it makes durranis norsemen too and they live in west of indus river and belong to pakhtun background.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Thank you so much for your input but if ahmad shah abdali was huns descendent then it makes durranis norsemen too and they live in west of indus river and belong to pakhtun background.

No that make them like Vikings

Norsemen are the ones who gradually lost their pagan warlike raiding ways and became ruling Christian class in civilized parts of Europe


Cognate of Norsemen in Indian subcontinent would be the ruling elite of Punjab,Sindh in Pre-Islamic times..they used to be warlike nomadic horsemen..crossed the Indus..conquered it..and then settled down to rule and perform agriculture and build forts and castles.....The Fort at Bhatinda being a prime example...built by the Kushans around 100 AD

 

[Ahmad Sajjad Paracha]

No that make them like Vikings

Norsemen are the ones who gradually lost their pagan warlike raiding ways and became ruling Christian class in civilized parts of Europe


Cognate of Norsemen in Indian subcontinent would be the ruling elite of Punjab,Sindh in Pre-Islamic times..they used to be warlike nomadic horsemen..crossed the Indus..conquered it..and then settled down to rule and perform agriculture and build forts and castles.....The Fort at Bhatinda being a prime example...built by the Kushans around 100 AD

If i am not wrong there is conflict on kushan's orgin some say they were indo european and some say they settled from gansu (which is in china) so according to you they were indo-european right ?