U.S. Helped Pakistan Get IMF Bailout With Secret Arms Deal for Ukraine, Leaked Documents Reveal

[FuturePAF]

My question is why you put yourself on sale so cheap...khan was asking we will not part any war. Was it wrong asking?
You are 250 millions as much as amaraicns. Why those fucking 280 millions make your their b.... **** that mentality


I agree we are fucking useless 250 millions bloody animals

My point is his advisors screwed him and basically set him up to take the fall. It’s either malice or incompetence.

Seriously what is the dollar value of Pakistani weapon shipments to Ukraine ? USA & Europe have sent in $100 billion in weapons & aid to Ukraine.

Total bilateral aid to Ukraine by donor & type 2024 | Statista

How much has each country given to Ukraine? The U.S. provided the highest bilateral aid to Ukraine as of May 2023, at nearly 71 billion euros.

www.statista.com

It’s not about the dollar amounts. If Pakistan had condemned alongside Afghanistan, we would have set ourselves apart from India. Look at how little Europe is contributing but claiming to be full partners of Ukraine. Equally, Pakistan could have used this to close the chapter on Afghanistan and move to a new relationship.

Financially, as the western ally on Russia’s southern flank, no saying how much FDI would have come up, but under a democratic government, the economic breakdown we have seen for the last year and a half would have even slower, and could have been salvaged more easily.

What Russia did was wrong. But more importantly, it would have been a way to pivot with little love lost from Russia. Even China would have given us a pass if we got CPEC up an running. The Arabs would be looking to go through Pakistan to invest in Central Asia and not looking for opportunities in India and Israel.

The central Asian nations would have thanked us to get western FDI and a trade route set up ASAP. We would have rebalanced our position in the region, and all with a democratically elected government working hand in hand with all its institutions.

Those that threw IK under the bus, couldn’t take the heat from China and Russia, even though it was Bajwa bad mouthing China to the west. He thought he could have it both ways. He flipped a coin and ensured both sides said “you lose”.

They have left us begging for a few billion that could have easily been raised domestically through property taxes on the rich. We sunk more then half our history being the US’ ally against the Soviets and sunk 50 years into mitigating the threat from Afghanistan to throw it all away, when we had a Pashtun PM and could have build mutually beneficial relationship that would last. We didn’t even have to bare the western wrath had we pivoted correctly. He had squandered out opportunities for decades, failed to build ourselves up independently , so at least we had to come back to the relationship Jinnah had set up with the US, with some planning, and not sold ourselves so cheaply.

Our shortsightedness is our undoing.

 

[Cash GK]

My point is his advisors screwed him and basically set him up to take the fall. It’s either malice or incompetence.


It’s not about the dollar amounts. If Pakistan had condemned alongside Afghanistan, we would have set ourselves apart from India. Look at how little Europe is contributing but claiming to be full partners of Ukraine. Equally, Pakistan could have used this to close the chapter on Afghanistan and move to a new relationship.

Financially, as the western ally on Russia’s southern flank, no saying how much FDI would have come up, but under a democratic government, the economic breakdown we have seen for the last year and a half would have even slower, and could have been salvaged more easily.

What Russia did was wrong. But more importantly, it would have been a way to pivot with little love lost from Russia. Even China would have given us a pass if we got CPEC up an running.

The central Asian nations would have thanked us to get western FDI and a trade route set up ASAP. We would have rebalanced our position in the region, and all with a democratically elected government working hand in hand with all its institutions.

Those that threw IK under the bus, couldn’t take the heat from China and Russia, even though it was Bajwa bad mouthing China to the west. He thought he could have it both ways. He flipped a coin and ensured both sides said “you lose”.

. His gernerals betrayed him like mir jafar and mir sadiq. You cal them his advisors fair enough

 

[FuturePAF]

. His gernerals betrayed him like mir jafar and mir sadiq. You cal them his advisors fear enough

Yes, his generals and his civilian advisors betrayed him. The entire nervous system (as Atif Mian calls it) of the state failed.

 

[nahtanbob]

My point is his advisors screwed him and basically set him up to take the fall. It’s either malice or incompetence.


It’s not about the dollar amounts. If Pakistan had condemned alongside Afghanistan, we would have set ourselves apart from India. Look at how little Europe is contributing but claiming to be full partners of Ukraine. Equally, Pakistan could have used this to close the chapter on Afghanistan and move to a new relationship.

Financially, as the western ally on Russia’s southern flank, no saying how much FDI would have come up, but under a democratic government, the economic breakdown we have seen for the last year and a half would have even slower, and could have been salvaged more easily.

What Russia did was wrong. But more importantly, it would have been a way to pivot with little love lost from Russia. Even China would have given us a pass if we got CPEC up an running. The Arabs would be looking to go through Pakistan to invest in Central Asia and not looking for opportunities in India and Israel.

The central Asian nations would have thanked us to get western FDI and a trade route set up ASAP. We would have rebalanced our position in the region, and all with a democratically elected government working hand in hand with all its institutions.

Those that threw IK under the bus, couldn’t take the heat from China and Russia, even though it was Bajwa bad mouthing China to the west. He thought he could have it both ways. He flipped a coin and ensured both sides said “you lose”.

They have left us begging for a few billion that could have easily been raised domestically through property taxes on the rich.

First Correction:
Europe is contributing tens of billions to Ukraine through EU and bilaterally

Second Correction:
Getting CPEC under the current terms completely means Pakistan becomes a slave to China. Imran Khan who had probably a backdoor understanding from Pakistani Army leaders held up the projects correctly.

Third Correction:
There is nothing there in Central Asia to get going. There are hydrocarbons in Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan. It will take $10 billion to start the project even if there is peace and understanding. Even if completed no one is paying Afghanistan or Pakistan the cut their elites expect.

 

[airmarshal]

Yes, his generals and his civilian advisors betrayed him. The entire nervous system (as Atif Mian calls it) of the state failed.

The state failed because military controls everything.

Even after Imran's ouster, the military has been controlling law enforcement, lower judiciary. You have to be blind not to see it.

Today, a PTI member's son died. His family is saying military forced hospitals not admit the sick child. Military wanted to torture him to qui PTI and make statement against Imran for May 9 drama which military itself orchestrated.

 

[Cash GK]

First Correction:
Europe is contributing tens of billions to Ukraine through EU and bilaterally

Second Correction:
Getting CPEC under the current terms completely means Pakistan becomes a slave to China. Imran Khan who had probably a backdoor understanding from Pakistani Army leaders held up the projects correctly.

Third Correction:
There is nothing there in Central Asia to get going. There are hydrocarbons in Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan. It will take $10 billion to start the project even if there is peace and understanding. Even if completed no one is paying Afghanistan or Pakistan the cut their elites expect.

Did China ask anything to Pakistan? You Indians are hopless.
Why you so againt Pakistan China friendship... b,oody Indian lol. And when you Indians started caring Pakistan

Yes, his generals and his civilian advisors betrayed him. The entire nervous system (as Atif Mian calls it) of the state failed.

Mostly generals and their planted spies

 

[nahtanbob]

Did China ask anything to Pakistan? You Indians are hopless.
Why you so againt Pakistan China friendship... b,oody Indian lol. And when you Indians started caring Pakistan

What has India have to do with this ?

I was explaining why CPEC was stopped
"Getting CPEC under the current terms completely means Pakistan becomes a slave to China. Imran Khan who had probably a backdoor understanding from Pakistani Army leaders held up the projects correctly."

If you have a better explanation I am all ears

From Day one I thought CPEC was a crappy project for Pakistan. You are free to check my posts from 2019

 

[Cash GK]

What has India have to do with this ?

I was explaining why CPEC was stopped
"Getting CPEC under the current terms completely means Pakistan becomes a slave to China. Imran Khan who had probably a backdoor understanding from Pakistani Army leaders held up the projects correctly."

If you have a better explanation I am all ears

Lol

 

[indushek]

My point is his advisors screwed him and basically set him up to take the fall. It’s either malice or incompetence.


It’s not about the dollar amounts. If Pakistan had condemned alongside Afghanistan, we would have set ourselves apart from India. Look at how little Europe is contributing but claiming to be full partners of Ukraine. Equally, Pakistan could have used this to close the chapter on Afghanistan and move to a new relationship.

Financially, as the western ally on Russia’s southern flank, no saying how much FDI would have come up, but under a democratic government, the economic breakdown we have seen for the last year and a half would have even slower, and could have been salvaged more easily.

What Russia did was wrong. But more importantly, it would have been a way to pivot with little love lost from Russia. Even China would have given us a pass if we got CPEC up an running. The Arabs would be looking to go through Pakistan to invest in Central Asia and not looking for opportunities in India and Israel.

The central Asian nations would have thanked us to get western FDI and a trade route set up ASAP. We would have rebalanced our position in the region, and all with a democratically elected government working hand in hand with all its institutions.

Those that threw IK under the bus, couldn’t take the heat from China and Russia, even though it was Bajwa bad mouthing China to the west. He thought he could have it both ways. He flipped a coin and ensured both sides said “you lose”.

They have left us begging for a few billion that could have easily been raised domestically through property taxes on the rich. We sunk more then half our history being the US’ ally against the Soviets and sunk 50 years into mitigating the threat from Afghanistan to throw it all away, when we had a Pashtun PM and could have build mutually beneficial relationship that would last. We didn’t even have to bare the western wrath had we pivoted correctly. He had squandered out opportunities for decades, failed to build ourselves up independently , so at least we had to come back to the relationship Jinnah had set up with the US, with some planning, and not sold ourselves so cheaply.

Our shortsightedness is our undoing.

While you make some good points, on how Pakistan could have done for itself better.. I feel even if it did all you suggested, the end benefits you feel could have be gained, wouldn't have reached the common Pakistanis.

Pakistan has some structural issues, just like any developing nation. Its the same story here as well, but some structural issues were dealt early on with.

If am not wrong land reforms haven't been carried out in Pakistan right? So few hold large tracts of land, an I remember reading somewhere that .. even if Agri is taxed, with few players it won't help much. I bring this up because, the trickle effect from a good investment in Agri field won't reach the common man if all he does is work on a field and can never own one.

Imran or no Imran, the PA will never let go of its control. They are immersed in every single institution and hold great power, so even if they hadn't done what they did and stayed in shadows.. the massive corruption and benefiting from the system would continue, which will make sure not much is left for public spending

The recent power crisis has shown that, how much that sector has been mis managed. More than enough power, but at such high cost that its not affordable to the common man.

The Taliban factor and Pashtun factor will be there, given that you suggest Pakistan sides with West. Am sure you know that, when there are security issues Investors wouldn't be interested in investing in such country right?

Do you see that besides geopolitical factors, the country itself has structural issues which stops the trickle down effect to happen. Its the Elites and Establishment in the end, who walk away with whatever benefits are accrued. By now it has become a chicken and egg story, as to who is the reason for this situation -- The politicians for being corrupt or The Army for being power hungry? The politician would say, they never got the chance to get a firm holding. They Army will say, they backstabbed them few times before and can't be trusted.

Am linking a video below, and while the platform isn't that respected on this forum given the man behind it (Peerzada), the speaker points to something very vital. Its the event that set tone for Pakistan as a nation. Time stamp: 25.20 to 25.50 particularly (the rest of the video is good too, but this is really important for all the discussion happening. Sort of the root cause)

The speaker says Generals lost faith in political leadership, as a consequence of the first Kashmir war. Says A.C M.K.Janjua and General Akbar Kahn wrote about it as well, given that they felt backstabbed after all the efforts the put in.

Made me feel it all makes more sense, as to why Jinnah Saab was kept so far away from any medical help, and why Liaqat Ali Khan was disposed and Quaid's sister was humiliated and then disposed off as well. This goes way way back, even before US entered the region and Pakistan perhaps. Any strong non Army leader, could cause troubles for what the PA envisaged for the nation. With this thinking for such long time, you can't fault the current crop for carrying on this tradition (if we think practically, ideologically and morally yes its otherwise of course).

 

[Communism]

The U.S. backed coup against Nawaz Sharif has ended with Pakistan losing the majority of its sovereignty, dead broke, and with strained relations with its closest allies.


RAW/CIA Agent Imran Khan:


Flawless Victory.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes, his generals and his civilian advisors betrayed him. The entire nervous system (as Atif Mian calls it) of the state failed.

The betrayal has been going on since (at least) the days of Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan.

 

[FuturePAF]

The state failed because military controls everything.

Even after Imran's ouster, the military has been controlling law enforcement, lower judiciary. You have to be blind not to see it.

Today, a PTI member's son died. His family is saying military forced hospitals not admit the sick child. Military wanted to torture him to qui PTI and make statement against Imran for May 9 drama which military itself orchestrated.

They do indeed control everything. On November 6, when elections after the prescribed 90 days, don’t happen. It will be the official day the Republic will have died again. All of what is happening is due to them and everyone knows it. They have squandered everything.

My only point is their shortsightedness is our undoing. The long term suffering of the people as a consequence of decades of what happened in Afghanistan and our position as a frontline Cold War state could have been the basis for a pivot for a new long term vision, but even there they have tried to do in the most inept manner.

Japan after the devastation of the Second World War, made itself the local partner and wholeheartedly supported the U.S. war effort in the Korean War and used that to rebuild its industries. The next few decades of their growth were due to US market access, due to their frontline state status. Pakistan has failed to reform on its own. If Pakistan were to reform it would still take at least a decade to see solid results. The FDI that could have come in under a new position could have bridged the gap. Building the connections to Central Asia right when the west is trying to make inroads into Russia’s last sphere of influence could have been our new convergence with the west and the central Asian states.

Secondly, counter balancing Indian influence while we build up our economy on solid foundations after reforms could have been a long term strategy of catching up.

 

[FuturePAF]

First Correction:
Europe is contributing tens of billions to Ukraine through EU and bilaterally

Second Correction:
Getting CPEC under the current terms completely means Pakistan becomes a slave to China. Imran Khan who had probably a backdoor understanding from Pakistani Army leaders held up the projects correctly.

Third Correction:
There is nothing there in Central Asia to get going. There are hydrocarbons in Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan. It will take $10 billion to start the project even if there is peace and understanding. Even if completed no one is paying Afghanistan or Pakistan the cut their elites expect.

CPEC debt was taken, making it useful could have happened if foreign shipping was using it; Electricity to power freight trains is one use. Processing some of those minerals in Pakistan could have helped pay for the infrastructure to manage our water supply. Reliable water supply can support many export oriented industries. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Center Asia has a lot of resources, especially in the minerals necessary for a clean energy transformation. Is the west going to leave all these minerals to be bought at discount prices by China, or compete for them?

If as you say CPEC is slavery to China, why not compete for Chinese influence in Pakistan. With Russia and Iran basically global pariahs, Is the West going to leave Pakistan to China and allow BRI to have a fighting chance. Perhaps it is competing, which is why Ambassador Bloom was seen in Gwadar.

“Central Asia holds 38.6% of global manganese ore reserves, 30.07% of chromium, 20% of lead, 12.6% of zinc, 8.7% of titanium, 5.8% of aluminum, 5.3% of copper, 5.3% of cobalt, and 5.2% of molybdenum (Table 2). The Central Asian countries are also already among the top 20 global producers of many critical materials. In terms of individual countries, Kazakhstan has the world’s largest reserves and is the second-largest producer of chromium, which is used in wind turbines. The country’s reserves are estimated at 230 million metric tons, while global reserves amount to 570 million metric tons. Kazakhstan has the world’s fifth largest zinc reserves and eighth largest ore reserves, and is one of the top 20 countries in terms of proven copper, cadmium, and bauxite reserves.“
Source:https://www.landclimate.org/central-asias-minerals-offer-hope-for-the-clean-energy-transition/#:~:text=Central Asia holds 38.6% of,of molybdenum (Table 2).

While you make some good points, on how Pakistan could have done for itself better.. I feel even if it did all you suggested, the end benefits you feel could have be gained, wouldn't have reached the common Pakistanis.

Pakistan has some structural issues, just like any developing nation. Its the same story here as well, but some structural issues were dealt early on with.

If am not wrong land reforms haven't been carried out in Pakistan right? So few hold large tracts of land, an I remember reading somewhere that .. even if Agri is taxed, with few players it won't help much. I bring this up because, the trickle effect from a good investment in Agri field won't reach the common man if all he does is work on a field and can never own one.

Imran or no Imran, the PA will never let go of its control. They are immersed in every single institution and hold great power, so even if they hadn't done what they did and stayed in shadows.. the massive corruption and benefiting from the system would continue, which will make sure not much is left for public spending

The recent power crisis has shown that, how much that sector has been mis managed. More than enough power, but at such high cost that its not affordable to the common man.

The Taliban factor and Pashtun factor will be there, given that you suggest Pakistan sides with West. Am sure you know that, when there are security issues Investors wouldn't be interested in investing in such country right?

Do you see that besides geopolitical factors, the country itself has structural issues which stops the trickle down effect to happen. Its the Elites and Establishment in the end, who walk away with whatever benefits are accrued. By now it has become a chicken and egg story, as to who is the reason for this situation -- The politicians for being corrupt or The Army for being power hungry? The politician would say, they never got the chance to get a firm holding. They Army will say, they backstabbed them few times before and can't be trusted.

Am linking a video below, and while the platform isn't that respected on this forum given the man behind it (Peerzada), the speaker points to something very vital. Its the event that set tone for Pakistan as a nation. Time stamp: 25.20 to 25.50 particularly (the rest of the video is good too, but this is really important for all the discussion happening. Sort of the root cause)

The speaker says Generals lost faith in political leadership, as a consequence of the first Kashmir war. Says A.C M.K.Janjua and General Akbar Kahn wrote about it as well, given that they felt backstabbed after all the efforts the put in.

Made me feel it all makes more sense, as to why Jinnah Saab was kept so far away from any medical help, and why Liaqat Ali Khan was disposed and Quaid's sister was humiliated and then disposed off as well. This goes way way back, even before US entered the region and Pakistan perhaps. Any strong non Army leader, could cause troubles for what the PA envisaged for the nation. With this thinking for such long time, you can't fault the current crop for carrying on this tradition (if we think practically, ideologically and morally yes its otherwise of course).

Similar to Japan after WW2 or Eastern Europe after communism, the buffer foreign FDI, over a decade or so, brings after a major change could help the government ease into reforms that are domestically unpalatable.

Reforms would have been better if they had happened sooner, but if they happen now, it better then never.

A workable relationship with the Afghans can be the basis for a stable western border, and that can be the basis for investor confidence. IK could be particularly useful in this effort, if back in office, no one else has the credibility with the Afghans he would have. The Afghans with their mineral wealth also are seeking investors and if like the Mongolians can balance investors from China, Europe, The US, and The GCC, they can get top dollar for their resources, similar to how Niger is trying break free of one export partner and for from $0.80 to $200 per ton of their uranium.

If the establishment wants to cut out the politicians, and do it all alone (perhaps like the East Asian tigers), they might as well extract the fat from the elite…But that will be where it will be unpalatable by those that maybe able to do something about it. This is why the state needs democracy (NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION). They can’t do it all themselves. No one is willing to lend them any money, and they will get real push back from the economic elite without concessions.

If they fear dimwit politicians will undo national interests then they need the best of the best civilian experts to guide elected policy makers in a binding mechanism. But if they bring in even the best of the best, without democracy, the people won’t accept it. Internationally they also need long term positions that balances the nation’s national interests.

We need only look at how Erdogan balances foreign relations to achieve national interests, and over 20 years, has build up a Turkish brand that global cache. He has his faults and his economics could use some work, it he balances what he and many Turks feel are their strategic interests in a tough part of the world.

We have gone as far as we could with the IMF, we need IK back in office to regain domestic confidence amongst the Pakistan population and overseas population to reinvest in Pakistan. Pakistan needs IK back in office, now more than ever, but with a team of civilian expert for each domain.

 

[_killuminati_]

Pak knows that Russia will always side with India.

Russia recently snubbed India, with Putin refusing to attend the G20 Summit in New Delhi. If you are going to say that he was too busy with the Ukraine War, then be aware that Putin travelled a longer distance to Amur, less than a week ago, to meet the North Korean leader Kim Jung Un.

In this case, how will Russia react? Will it stop providing RD-93 engines to the JF-17? If the supply is terminated, will the United States provide F414 instead?

If I'm not mistaken, Russia supplies the RD-93 to China only. China then resupplies it to Pakistan. China is also a co-producer and exporter of JF-17, and it ordered a stockpile of RD-93 in the past already.

 

[PradoTLC]

‘Baseless and fabricated’: FO rejects report on Pakistani arms sale to Ukraine to secure IMF bailout

Says giving "any other colour" to IMF talks is "disingenuous", Pakistan maintains a policy of “strict neutrality” on Russia-Ukraine conflict.

www.dawn.com