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Why do we fear Secularism?

@vsdoc:

Surely, Indian "democracy" is not on par with say Swedish democracy. When the rule of law is not uniformly applied how can the country be called a true democracy.

Have the murders of Sikhs in 1984 been caught and punished. When hundreds of muslims were killed in Bombay, no trial has been successful.

Yes, India has elections and leaders are elected but that is not "democracy". Iran has elections too.

India as you rightly say is TOLERANT and I am a great admirer of Gandhi, but you are confusing "tolerance" and "democracy".

Indian society appears to be fundamentally tolerant but modern democratic instituions are not fully matured. The rule of law is not absolute in India.

There are many people in India who are intolerant and when they commit great crimes they go unpunished. No one dares to touch Bal Thackeray and other Hindu goons who go around killing innocent men women and children.

- sick mindse. only think about religion and nothing else. Hindus were also killed and no one has gone on trial
- Bal thackeray did not kill anyone. yes he is a goon , but get facts straight. very poor arguments. eg sweden is a homogenous country with similar demographies. In India there may be some 50 countries within the same system. yet somehow everyone is pulling along.
First people in Pakistan and even to an extent indians dont understand secularims meaning. They ignorantly think that if conversions/preaching is banned its not secularism and many such things.
Secularism means that one is free to practise or not any religion he chooses. a person will no be discriminated on basis of religion. Thats all. i think on both counts india has done great and is a true secular nation.
 
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@vsdoc:

Surely, Indian "democracy" is not on par with say Swedish democracy. When the rule of law is not uniformly applied how can the country be called a true democracy.

Have the murders of Sikhs in 1984 been caught and punished. When hundreds of muslims were killed in Bombay, no trial has been successful.

Yes, India has elections and leaders are elected but that is not "democracy". Iran has elections too.

India as you rightly say is TOLERANT and I am a great admirer of Gandhi, but you are confusing "tolerance" and "democracy".

Indian society appears to be fundamentally tolerant but modern democratic instituions are not fully matured. The rule of law is not absolute in India.

There are many people in India who are intolerant and when they commit great crimes they go unpunished. No one dares to touch Bal Thackeray and other Hindu goons who go around killing innocent men women and children.

Couldn't agree more with you my friend, after having lived in India and having no intention of hurting anyone feelings you are very right. Yes India has the foundations and a great culture, tolerance etc...etc .I must say you are spot on your observations and that too very rightly said.
 
- sick mindse. only think about religion and nothing else. Hindus were also killed and no one has gone on trial
- Bal thackeray did not kill anyone. yes he is a goon , but get facts straight. very poor arguments. eg sweden is a homogenous country with similar demographies. In India there may be some 50 countries within the same system. yet somehow everyone is pulling along.
First people in Pakistan and even to an extent indians dont understand secularims meaning. They ignorantly think that if conversions/preaching is banned its not secularism and many such things.
Secularism means that one is free to practise or not any religion he chooses. a person will no be discriminated on basis of religion. Thats all. i think on both counts india has done great and is a true secular nation.
Please remind him of the massacre of your Kashmiri pandit communities at the hands of Islamic fundamentalists that took place. I am aware of this due to my wife belonging to the region as well as numerous NGO reports.

Unfortunately, most members here are religiously myopic.
 
To all,

Secularism means separating state from religion; not atheism. Turkey is the best example of secularism for Muslims. I am aware of the regard people here have for Turkey. Have they turned atheists?

I don't think so.
 
We should be what Jinnah envisioned for us to be and that is a Liberal Democratic Muslim State.

He was all for secularism and proclaimed that Turkey was an example for Pakistan to follow. Our Military Generals apart from Zia have held the same belief and another thing we have in common with Turkey is that both of us have suffered from a lot of internal turmoil. Eighties was a very difficult time for Turkey and they have worked hard to improve their situation.

This was said by Nehru about Pakistan and Turkey.

"Most countries have an army, but in the case of Pakistan and Turkey, an army has a country."
 
i accept all the quaid quoting, but i fail to understand where the words "secularism" are written, was quaid fearful to use this words??, he has used the words like islam, islamic, islamic justice, even our objective resolution sates that?? so whats the point really??

islamic republic or secular state, it will not bring an ounce of change in pakistan, corrupt will prosper, what we need are the land reforms and reforms in education system, mass education, awareness etc

the word of quaid

"“The tenets of Islam enjoin on every Musalman to give protection to his neighbours and to the Minorities regardless of caste and creed. We must make it a matter of our honor and prestige to create sense of security amongst them.”"

as he has clearly mentioned that one needs to follow islam, and he has given the example, that islam teaches us this and that, and to protect minorities and treat every religious/ ethnic minority as equal.. true!!

Dear Sir,

This is about secularism, not about Jinnah. You are right in pointing out that everyone is quoting him, but with respect, not right in stating that merely because he did not spell out the word, there is something materially defective in quoting him.

Two points: if I invite you to come with me on a short journey in my mechanical vehicle driven by an internal combustion engine travelling on four wheels of inflated rubber on a road of tarmac or bitumen, and you complain later that you never realised you were being invited for a car-ride, that is special pleading.

You have to realise that Jinnah didn't get the approval of the community by divine right, he had to struggle for it, democratically, under the rule of the British. He had to fight off the INC, which also claimed to represent Muslims, and had formidable representatives to put up, including disciples of Ansari learned in law; he had to fight off the Jamaat and Deoband; he had to fight off Maududi; he had to fight to get on his side fiercely resistant parties like the Praja Krishak Party of Fazlul Haq, the Unionists in the Punjab and the predecessors of the ANP, the Khudai Khidmatgars in present-day KP. He even had to respond to his own party members who were zealots, such as the Raja of Mahmudabad, apart from convincing Islamists such as the Pir of Manki.

Under the circumstances, in standing for the rights of the Muslim community, he made it a point never to deny Islam; he repeatedly said that his vision of the rules and laws of the homeland within India that he sought would not be inconsistent with the holy Quran.

I respectfully suggest that you were right in raising the point, since everyone had started by citing his example, but in substance, Jinnah was clearly secular, whether he used the label or not. Because he was operating in a political democratic framework, he had to choose his words carefully; unfortunately, this careful selection has been used by those who wish to get the authority of his reputation and his standing to suggest that he actually meant something more.

That is not to say, by any means, that he would have moved against Islam, against the Quran, against the Hadeeth, in any way. It would have been absurd for him to fight for and secure two homelands in Muslim majority states and then insist on legislature that was in any way anti-Islamic. He was by no stretch of the imagination given to doing absurd things.

Ultimately his words are before us, and remain for us to interpret. This debate is precisely about the interpretation, in some ways, but not in others. Let us deal with these two aspects of the debate one after the other.

It is precisely about why we choose to interpret him to mean secular, or not secular. The reasons for Pakistan, the reasons for seeking two homelands for Muslims, are surely very important for you, in Pakistan, in your present generation, in deciding what course to take. It is one of the guidelines that you may wish to consult, to consider. Of course. That is why others are citing him in their favour, for secularism; that is why you are refuting their interpretation. Perfectly good and proper.

In doing so, please do not be confused or diverted by suggestions that if Pakistan had been meant to be secular, it was never necessary. That is a muddying of the waters that you can and should ignore with all the force that you can summon. Pakistan is the result of historical events, and it was never about secularism; it was about the right of an otherwise outnumbered minority to decide how to fine-tune things for themselves. It was about what you are going through today.

At the time that decisions were being taken, it was by no means a settled matter that the alternative would turn out to be secular. On the contrary. Many felt at the time that the influence of another religion was too deeply imbued in the other alternative for any Muslim consciousness to flourish, perhaps even survive.

It is an historical irony that something else happened in reality, that the Hindu majority state adopted secularism, of a sort, and kept to it, and that the Muslim majority two homelands, formed into one state, increasingly was guided into another path, step at a time, one compromise, one political compulsion at a time. I can list them but every Pakistani knows them by heart, you have yourself quoted the OR, so eloquently defended by Sir Mohammed Zaffrullah Khan in an act of supreme irony, and the others don't matter.

As we can see, in the flow of time, things happen. In 63 years, there have been developments. There have been influences at work, for better or for worse, this is not the place to pass judgement, which have deepened the thinking about Islam in Pakistan. These were not the Qaid's ways, according to liberal Pakistanis; on the contrary, these were precisely what he wanted, according to the conservatives. Finally, it is for each of you to decide, based on what is true today, what you see around you, what you wish to do. Interpreters and analysts, and good friends from other countries, can only hold up their own pictures of the truth for you to be guided; you must decide what to believe and how to select.

When you do, I hope you will remember that the great man once said (I quote him, once more, because anything a non-Muslim, a foreigner and an Indian says, may be automatically rejected by some as having no bearing on your country's internal matter) that there were dozens of sects; which version would rule? I suggest to you that you bear this in mind, but not allow yourselves to be paralysed by the thought. At the moment, you need democracy, free of coercion. Once that is a settled issue, once it is clearly understood by all that democracy must not be upset, it is time to decide on secularism.

But there is no harm thinking about it, yes or no, until that time. Your friends will hope very hard, or will pray, depending on their profession of faith, that you will take the right decision. And that is what this debate is about, after all.

Sincerely,
 
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Please remind him of the massacre of your Kashmiri pandit communities at the hands of Islamic fundamentalists that took place. I am aware of this due to my wife belonging to the region as well as numerous NGO reports.

Unfortunately, most members here are religiously myopic.

Absolutely agree.

While India's law and order and law implementation record is as bad as any other developing country, irrespective of the governing method they follow, how do these failures negate our commitment to democracy and secularism? Credit shoud be given where due.

Just because Saudi's record on law and order is better than India's, does not mean we need to learn democracy and secularism from them now, do we?
 
Jinnah was called 'Protector General' of the Hindus by religious parties, he chose Hindus, Christians, Ahmadies, Aga Khanis and other such people to form the first government of our country. Please read Jinnah first speech to the constituent assembly.

Mr. President, Ladies and Gentlemen!

I cordially thank you, with the utmost sincerity, for the honour you have conferred upon me - the greatest honour that is possible to confer - by electing me as your first President. I also thank those leaders who have spoken in appreciation of my services and their personal references to me. I sincerely hope that with your support and your co-operation we shall make this Constituent Assembly an example to the world. The Constituent Assembly has got two main functions to perform. The first is the very onerous and responsible task of framing the future constitution of Pakistan and the second of functioning as a full and complete sovereign body as the Federal Legislature of Pakistan. We have to do the best we can in adopting a provisional constitution for the Federal Legislature of Pakistan. You know really that not only we ourselves are wondering but, I think, the whole world is wondering at this unprecedented cyclonic revolution which has brought about the clan of creating and establishing two independent sovereign Dominions in this sub-continent. As it is, it has been unprecedented; there is no parallel in the history of the world. This mighty sub-continent with all kinds of inhabitants has been brought under a plan which is titanic, unknown, unparalleled. And what is very important with regards to it is that we have achieved it peacefully and by means of an evolution of the greatest possible character.

Dealing with our first function in this Assembly, I cannot make any well-considered pronouncement at this moment, but I shall say a few things as they occur to me. The first and the foremost thing that I would like to emphasize is this: remember that you are now a sovereign legislative body and you have got all the powers. It, therefore, places on you the gravest responsibility as to how you should take your decisions. The first observation that I would like to make is this: You will no doubt agree with me that the first duty of a government is to maintain law and order, so that the life, property and religious beliefs of its subjects are fully protected by the State.

The second thing that occurs to me is this: One of the biggest curses from which India is suffering - I do not say that other countries are free from it, but, I think our condition is much worse - is bribery and corruption. That really is a poison. We must put that down with an iron hand and I hope that you will take adequate measures as soon as it is possible for this Assembly to do so.

Black-marketing is another curse. Well, I know that blackmarketeers are frequently caught and punished. Judicial sentences are passed or sometimes fines only are imposed. Now you have to tackle this monster, which today is a colossal crime against society, in our distressed conditions, when we constantly face shortage of food and other essential commodities of life. A citizen who does black-marketing commits, I think, a greater crime than the biggest and most grievous of crimes. These blackmarketeers are really knowing, intelligent and ordinarily responsible people, and when they indulge in black-marketing, I think they ought to be very severely punished, because the entire system of control and regulation of foodstuffs and essential commodities, and cause wholesale starvation and want and even death.

The next thing that strikes me is this: Here again it is a legacy which has been passed on to us. Along with many other things, good and bad, has arrived this great evil, the evil of nepotism and jobbery. I want to make it quite clear that I shall never tolerate any kind of jobbery, nepotism or any any influence directly of indirectly brought to bear upon me. Whenever I will find that such a practice is in vogue or is continuing anywhere, low or high, I shall certainly not countenance it.

I know there are people who do not quite agree with the division of India and the partition of the Punjab and Bengal. Much has been said against it, but now that it has been accepted, it is the duty of everyone of us to loyally abide by it and honourably act according to the agreement which is now final and binding on all. But you must remember, as I have said, that this mighty revolution that has taken place is unprecedented. One can quite understand the feeling that exists between the two communities wherever one community is in majority and the other is in minority. But the question is, whether it was possible or practicable to act otherwise than what has been done, A division had to take place. On both sides, in Hindustan and Pakistan, there are sections of people who may not agree with it, who may not like it, but in my judgement there was no other solution and I am sure future history will record is verdict in favour of it. And what is more, it will be proved by actual experience as we go on that was the only solution of India's constitutional problem. Any idea of a united India could never have worked and in my judgement it would have led us to terrific disaster. Maybe that view is correct; maybe it is not; that remains to be seen. All the same, in this division it was impossible to avoid the question of minorities being in one Dominion or the other. Now that was unavoidable. There is no other solution. Now what shall we do? Now, if we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous, we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet, you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be on end to the progress you will make.

I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation.

Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.

Well, gentlemen, I do not wish to take up any more of your time and thank you again for the honour you have done to me. I shall always be guided by the principles of justice and fairplay without any, as is put in the political language, prejudice or ill-will, in other words, partiality or favouritism. My guiding principle will be justice and complete impartiality, and I am sure that with your support and co-operation, I can look forward to Pakistan becoming one of the greatest nations of the world.

I have received a message from the United States of America addressed to me. It reads:

I have the honour to communicate to you, in Your Excellency's capacity as President of the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, the following message which I have just received from the Secretary of State of the United States:
On the occasion of of the first meeting of the Constituent Assembly for Pakistan, I extend to you and to the members of the Assembly, the best wishes of the Government and the people of the United States for the successful conclusion of the great work you are about to undertake.

:pakistan:
 
Even in India which is a democracy, from time to time the foundations of democracy is tested by its illiterate people and its moronic and corrupt politicians.

So many innocent people are killed in riots because democracy breaks down from time to time and there is no rule of law nor an efficient delivery of justice.

India has many functioning democratic institutions but it has at best a flawed democratic foundation.---Because the people are illiterate just like the people in Pakistan.

Magnificent post...an illiterate population is NOT a true democracy even if the elections are held fair and square regularly.
The right to vote means the voter has to have the ability to analyze the issues...an illiterate population is like sheep.
 
Secularism is the only way for Muslims countries to prosper! Take Turkey for example!

In secularism it doesn't matter if your a Shia, Sunni, Sufi, Ahmadi etc etc...... What matters is that your a part of the Nation and your voice is just as important as any other Pakistanis! Religion shouldn't be allowed in certain areas and government is one them!


:hitwall::hitwall::hitwall: GOD HELP PAKISTAN :hitwall::hitwall::hitwall:
 
i accept all the quaid quoting, but i fail to understand where the words "secularism" are written, was quaid fearful to use this words??, he has used the words like islam, islamic, islamic justice, even our objective resolution sates that?? so whats the point really??

islamic republic or secular state, it will not bring an ounce of change in pakistan, corrupt will prosper, what we need are the land reforms and reforms in education system, mass education, awareness etc

the word of quaid

"“The tenets of Islam enjoin on every Musalman to give protection to his neighbours and to the Minorities regardless of caste and creed. We must make it a matter of our honor and prestige to create sense of security amongst them.”"

as he has clearly mentioned that one needs to follow islam, and he has given the example, that islam teaches us this and that, and to protect minorities and treat every religious/ ethnic minority as equal.. true!!

Dear Sir,

Regrettably, in my earlier response, there was no mention of your very important point, emphasised in bold above.

Many are of the opinion that land reforms, reforms in the education system, mass education, awareness, and so on, will not be possible under an authoritarian regime without accountability. Under nearly 32 years of dictatorship, in one form or the other, all these nation-building aspects were neglected, in favour of building military strength.

The results are clear to see. Both the depriver and the deprived lose in this shrinking-sum game.

Only a strong nation, a nation equally strong in economic terms, in political terms and therefore in military terms, can resist this process of gradual diminution by powerful forces in the neighbourhood.

It appears that Islam may be a necessary, but not a sufficient condition for the well-being of Pakistan.

I humbly submit for your consideration that only a democracy, not necessarily a secular one, but a firmly-founded one, can find strength to keep up. Having said that, only a commitment to secularism will keep the different movements, Islamic and other, from going for each others' throats and distracting attention from the only thing that matters, equitable growth.

Sincerely,
 
You have to realise that Jinnah didn't get the approval of the community by divine right, he had to struggle for it, democratically, under the rule of the British. He had to fight off the INC, which also claimed to represent Muslims, and had formidable representatives to put up, including disciples of Ansari learned in law; he had to fight off the Jamaat and Deoband; he had to fight off Maududi; he had to fight to get on his side fiercely resistant parties like the Praja Krishak Party of Fazlul Haq, the Unionists in the Punjab and the predecessors of the ANP, the Khudai Khidmatgars in present-day KP. He even had to respond to his own party members who were zealots, such as the Raja of Mahmudabad, apart from convincing Islamists such as the Pir of Manki.
You forgot the 'Islam in danger' part of his politics. Anyway, thats not important here.

...in substance, Jinnah was clearly secular, whether he used the label or not. Because he was operating in a political democratic framework, he had to choose his words carefully; unfortunately, this careful selection has been used by those who wish to get the authority of his reputation and his standing to suggest that he actually meant something more.
What would be the correct word here - secular or moderate ?
 
Secularism is the only way for Muslims countries to prosper! Take Turkey for example!

In secularism it doesn't matter if your a Shia, Sunni, Sufi, Ahmadi etc etc...... What matters is that your a part of the Nation and your voice is just as important as any other Pakistanis! Religion shouldn't be allowed in certain areas and government is one them!
Now there is to be a debate b/w Religion & Nationalism
 
i accept all the quaid quoting, but i fail to understand where the words "secularism" are written, was quaid fearful to use this words??, he has used the words like islam, islamic, islamic justice, even our objective resolution sates that?? so whats the point really??

islamic republic or secular state, it will not bring an ounce of change in pakistan, corrupt will prosper, what we need are the land reforms and reforms in education system, mass education, awareness etc

the word of quaid

"“The tenets of Islam enjoin on every Musalman to give protection to his neighbours and to the Minorities regardless of caste and creed. We must make it a matter of our honor and prestige to create sense of security amongst them.”"

as he has clearly mentioned that one needs to follow islam, and he has given the example, that islam teaches us this and that, and to protect minorities and treat every religious/ ethnic minority as equal.. true!!

You forgot the 'Islam in danger' part of his politics. Anyway, thats not important here.

Dear T_P,

On the contrary, it was very important here. His primary constituency was the salariat, the western-educated Muslims from AMU.

What follows is my personal interpretation, and there is no evidence I have at the moment.

They were chilled at the thought that all the jobs would be grabbed by the majority and other minorities, and there would be no space for growth. Other Muslim families, not at that time within the magic circle, would be left out in perpetuity. They found that seat reservations, tried earlier, from 1919 onwards, was insufficient to give Muslims an edge in vital economic matters.

This is identical to the situation in other, parallel cases.

Islam was never in danger, and everyone knew that. The Two Nation Theory effectively was a declaration that the Muslims were different from the others, so they sought safeguards to ensure development and growth, and to ensure that their minority status did not disable them from demanding more education (more seats), more job reservations, more affirmative action.

What would be the correct word here - secular or moderate ?

Secular, I should imagine. In the post-37 stage of his political career, in sharp contrast to the preceding stage, he was no longer moderate but was driving for a rapid resolution of the community's problems, which involved a greater share of power immediately, as well as after the British departed.

Sincerely,
 
On the contrary, it was very important here. His primary constituency was the salariat, the western-educated Muslims from AMU.
True, if I'm not mistaken, till the run up to provincial election circa '46. Around that time he was able to reach to Muslim-in-the-street. The rise of Muslim votes, from 4.8%, circa '37 to 76%, circa '46, stand testimony to that.

What follows is my personal interpretation, and there is no evidence I have at the moment.

They were chilled at the thought that all the jobs would be grabbed by the majority and other minorities, and there would be no space for growth. Other Muslim families, not at that time within the magic circle, would be left out in perpetuity. They found that seat reservations, tried earlier, from 1919 onwards, was insufficient to give Muslims an edge in vital economic matters.
I am not fundamentally in any disagreement with this interpretation, because it coincides with my own assessment.

This is identical to the situation in other, parallel cases.

Islam was never in danger, and everyone knew that. The Two Nation Theory effectively was a declaration that the Muslims were different from the others, so they sought safeguards to ensure development and growth, and to ensure that their minority status did not disable them from demanding more education (more seats), more job reservations, more affirmative action.
This is where I differ. ML campaign during the provincial elections of '46 was entirely communal in classical sense, and was never about 'reservation'. (I see no point in quoting those hateful slogans etc.) 'Everyone knew that Islam was never in danger' is a giant leap of faith, not substantiated by any evidence. In fact it goes against recorded history.

But as I said, this is not the important point of my post. The following is.

Secular, I should imagine. In the post-37 stage of his political career, in sharp contrast to the preceding stage, he was no longer moderate but was driving for a rapid resolution of the community's problems, which involved a greater share of power immediately, as well as after the British departed.
Although we categorise Jinnah as pre-37 and post-37, I go a step further, and include another category. Post 14, Aug, 1947. Pre-37 Jinnah was secular in every sense of the word. Post-37 Jinnah was communal in every sense of the word. Post 14, Aug, 1947 Jinnah was moderate, in some sense.

The problem with post 14, Aug, 1947 Jinnah was that, although this Jinnah wanted to cage the genie of sectarianism that the post-37 Jinnah had freed, he was aware that it was not to be. He could neither go back to be pre-37, nor could he remain post-37.

So what did he do? He made a cocktail of contemporary secular ideas and Islam, and gave something that was neither 'secular' in classical sense, nor 'Islamic' in strictly religious sense or even in academic sense.

Pakistanis were therefore left, perpetually torn between these contradictory ideals - secularism and Islam.
 

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