DrSomnath999
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2011
- Messages
- 2,428
- Reaction score
- 4
- Country
- Location
After recent announcement that Chinese are going to buy Russian Su 35 there are rumours that russian Su 35 would pose a serious threat to Indian Rafale .Well how authentic is the news that chinese are going to buy Russian SU 35 is a different
issue but the point of this thread is to explain everyone that even if Chinese are indeed going to have Russian Su 35 it would have no serious threat to Rafale or even Super Su 30 mki which india going to have in future.
The thread is divided in 2 parts
1st part explains what are the decisive advantages rafale going to have over SU 35 ??
2nd part explains why Why india did a wise thing by upgrading SU 30 mki to Super Su 30 rather than buying Su 35?
DECISIVE ADVANTAGES OF RAFALE OVER SU 35
1) SURVIVABILITY ( which is most important due to less RCS ,less IR signature & spectra EW suite)
what would one do with a plane like flanker derivatives with a bigger rcs & less stealthy which cant survive in today' s high tech EW age with advanced SAMs ,awacs & enemy aesa enabled fighter to face ,even if it may be carrying 100 missiles ,having 10000km range & having 1000km detection range PESA radar which lacks LPI/can be jammed & 1000kn engine with higher IR signature & also heavy maintenance prone
2)5TH GEN AVIONICS & SENSOR SYSTEM
a) rafale'S FSO is far better than Su 35's OLS-35 IRST (Max Detection Range: 90 kilometer)in detection range fso detection range:130 km)
Seeker gets on track
OLS-35
also FSO NG is upcoming next
b)AREOS RECO NG
they dont have anything comparable to it
c)RBE 2 AESA RADAR
ADV: i) LPI
ii) less prone to electronic jamming
iii) more target scanning 40 targets
d) SPECTRA ew suite with ELINT/SIGNIT capabilty
SU 35 also has upgraded ew suite but Spectra has some extra features which make it far too superior compared to Russian self protection suite L175M Khibiny-M electronic-warfare self-defense system on SU-35
also Spectra NG is already on the development with upgraded GaN modules with far more range
f)Sensor fusion
rafale's awesome speciality is it's faster 5th gen system core processor which integrates data & information at much faster
rate than it's russian Su 35 competitor
RAFALE'S 5TH GEN SYSTEM CORE
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi.../Defence/2000/Mirage_2000-9_special_issue.pdf
here is a coool video about french avionics in rafale enjoy!!!
3)MUCH SUPERIOR ARMAMENTS
BVRAAMs
a)Meteor BVRAAM which is world's 1st operational ramjet powered missile which has world's longest No escape zone missile .Russia's have yet to field anything comparable to it though they are developing.
Dassault Aviation, acteur majeur de lindustrie aéronautique mondiale to-air-capabilities.html?L=1
b)MICA IR bvraam is one of the longest range IR guided missile till date now though Russian R 73 missile is very good missile but it lacks range of Mica IR which is more critical
AIR TO GROUND MISSILES
a) SCALP - it is a stealthy air launched cruise missile with superior guidance system
whats different about SCALP/storm shadow missile that makes it more stealthy than russian ALCM .?
ans: SCALP/STORM shadom
stealthy body shaping & coating
superior guidance & navigation system
scalp can be released at very low level
The flight path of the missile is planned before the mission on a dedicated system which supports up to 16 missiles. This capability enables the pilot to launch the missile from a relatively wide "window", which does not expose him to risk of detection and engagement with enemy air defenses.
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...dacteur/Defence/Rafale/Fox_Three_N_14_UK2.pdf
http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/Storm-Shadow_ds.pdf
Storm Shadow / SCALP EG Cruise Missile
b)ASMP {Air-Sol Moyenne Portée}
it is french's strategic air launched cruise missile with supersonic speed with range of 500km .Russian SU 35 dont have any thing comparable to it as Klub is subsonic /Yakhont air launched is still in development but it lacks range .
in future india's case Brahmos air launched version / Brahmos 2 hypersonic version can be installed
c)HAMMER missile
very effective & highly accurate (CEP-1m) proven in afganistan & libya
Sagem
capabilty to be fired through SPECTRA in suppresion of enemy's airdefences (SAM radars)
Sagem cites a range capability of more than 32nm from high altitude, or 8nm from low level. Launches can also be made from an off-axis angle of up to 90°, while up to six weapons can be fired against individual targets in a single pass and with just one trigger press."
France's Rafale fighter proves its 'omnirole' skills
meanwhile the russian KAB 500 /1000/ have inferior CEP(7m) & range compare to hammer
III) foreign made weapons
a)Brimstone (missile) air to surface anti armour missile
though it is not operational yet but growing requirement for a superior missile with less collateral damage is prompting french officials to procure it .though Indian may procure it.very effective & accurate
http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i441/somnath30/RAFALE/BRIMSTONEUNDERSTUDYFORRAFALE.jpg
b) GBU series bombs
cheaper than Sagem hammer useful in lesser value targets
c) Brahmos/ nirbhay
in case of Indian MMRCA case
SU 35 has advantage in case of anti radiation missile like kh 31P & variety of anti ship missiles in comparision to rafale's exocet AScM.Meanwhile Russians dont want to install foreign made weapons in their planes for security reasons
4)BETTER MULTI ROLE CAPABLE FIGHTER
both SU 35 & Rafale have been promoted as a multi role fighter but facts supports rafale that it is indeed a much better multi role fighter
a)switzerland leaked evaluation report
2008 analysis
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-E2bVIJBst...CWB4g/s1600/Swiss_eval_NWA1_appreciations.png
2009 analysis
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Lj-Vmw8lg...Wxe3A/s1600/Swiss_eval_NWA2_appreciations.png
http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale/pdf/12332.pdf
Rafale News: Switzerland, Evaluation report quick analysis
b)DUTCH EVALUATION REPORT IN 2001
http://img.over-blog.com/499x342/0/50/29/09//AvionJSFAnalysMd-Nrc080909-copie-1.jpg
Avion de chasse: les Pays-Bas ont-ils favorisé le F-35 ? - bruxelles2 Europe de la Défense
Dedefensa.org : To The Point, Context n°50 (March-April 2002) - The Road to Chaos and The Dutch Way
c) other missions which rafale has proven of not Su-35
i) buddy to buddy rufuelling in libya
ii) aerial recognaissance thanks to it's AREOS RECO ng in mali & libya
iii) one of the finest proven platform in SEAD & DEAD missions unlike Su 35 in Libya
Rafale is undisputedly a more mature & proven multirole fighter than Su 35
5) CUTTING EDGE FUTURE UPGRADES
Rafale has a tremendous future upgrades plan in form of F3+ variant
a) Uprated M 88 engine may be with thrust vectoring
b) Upgraded avionics & ECM suite like FSO IT, SPECTRA NG ,PDL NG & MAWS NG
Rafale Upgrade Ready in 2012
c)Rafale pilots can control & order UCAVS like (neuron) to strike targets, from rafale only
d)RCS improvements like CFT , enclosed weapon pods ,redesigned air intake for higher thrust engines
e)DIRCM(Directional based Infra Red countermeasures) compatible DDM NG
f) Conformal radar antenna Array located all around the airframe exactly like PAK-FA in wings & rear end
Rafale News: Rafale F3-O4T and beyond
Meanwhile Su 35 's future upgrades depends upon it's manufacturing order alone whether it is from Russian airforce /or from
export customers as recently 30-40 planes have been ordered from Russian airforce & Venezuela is known to be 1st export customer though the deal hasnt been signed yet.
6)MANEUVERABILITY
Well both fighters known to have supermanuveurabilty but SU 35 has known to have a an extra adavantage of TVC But still Rafale has proven in various aerial wargames it's manuveurablity skills .
I)RAFALE THRASHING TYPHOON 9-1 in Solenzara, 2009.
II)Rafale's War Game with F-22 (2009)
III)RAFALE'S SUPERB PERFORMANCE IN AERIAL EXERCISE WITH MIRAGE 2000 & f16:
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...resse/lbg07/defense/rafale/foxThree_nr_10.pdf
Though Su 35 has mesmerized everyone with it's awesome manuveurabilty in air shows but post stall manuveurabilty looks good only in airshows ,but in combat u need amazing turn rate without losing air speed much which rafale boasts to have .
CONCLUSION
Well Su 35 is a formidable fighter no doubt about it ,but rafale's advantages over Su 35 gives Rafale an edge in BVR warfare but in within VBR warfare Su 35 armed with R 73 missiles & TVC installled engines can give a tough fight to the Rafale.
Why india did a wise thing by upgrading SU 30 mki to Super Su 30 rather than buying Su 35?
1)Indian Super su 30 mki would have a cutting edge Zhuk-AE AESA radar meanwhile Irbis E has a PESA radar & Aesa is always technically superior to a PESA radar though it is expensive
2)Super Su -30 mki upgrades are still classified but what we know from sources along with an Aesa radar it is going to have
a) new cockpit may be larger size display units
b) upgraded mission computers ( probablly new system core)
c) New EW suite equivalent to Su 35's EW suite
d) Advanced Stealth characteristics ( more composites / better Ram coating)
e) Abilty to carry Brahmos ALCM ( certain structural modifications if required)
f) Even foreign weapon's & indigeious weapon integration could also be possible like Meteor ,Brimstone Astra & nirbhay
IAF's Sukhoi jets to be upgraded to fifth generation fighters
IAF to upgrade Su-30MKIs to 'Super Sukhoi' standard - Economic Times
3)The problem with Flanker derivatives is it's high RCS no matter how they upgrade it .The biggest drawback of flanker derivatives is it's Straight air intake design as it is a big blunder for stealth as they still havent installed a radar blocker in it's engine in SU 35 .So stealth wise both Su 35 & Super Su 30 are going to even & inferior to western 4.5 gen fighters counter part no matter how they boast of reduced RCS.So no point of buying SU 35 rather than why not upgrading Su 30 mki .
4)Russian Su 35 still would have some advantages in performance aspect like higher thrust engines, more range & higher T/W ratio but those advantages are not decisive nor overwhelming in comparision to Super su 30
5)Russia have always known to sold similiar weapons platform to china like SU -30 MkK ,yes the chinese are developing & inducting J11b & j15 but despite all that Russia always find ways to persuade China to buy it's weapons for financial reasons
So why should india buy a platform which has no guarantee that it wont be sold to china .
6)India & Russia are already partners in developing a 5th gen plane (PAK-FA) which is a futuristic fighter designed to meet future aerial threats .SO why waste money on buying a new plane like Su 35 which's capabilty can be matched by upgrading that similiar kind of plane with added features like that of Su 30 mki to Super Su 30 standard
issue but the point of this thread is to explain everyone that even if Chinese are indeed going to have Russian Su 35 it would have no serious threat to Rafale or even Super Su 30 mki which india going to have in future.
The thread is divided in 2 parts
1st part explains what are the decisive advantages rafale going to have over SU 35 ??
2nd part explains why Why india did a wise thing by upgrading SU 30 mki to Super Su 30 rather than buying Su 35?
DECISIVE ADVANTAGES OF RAFALE OVER SU 35
1) SURVIVABILITY ( which is most important due to less RCS ,less IR signature & spectra EW suite)
what would one do with a plane like flanker derivatives with a bigger rcs & less stealthy which cant survive in today' s high tech EW age with advanced SAMs ,awacs & enemy aesa enabled fighter to face ,even if it may be carrying 100 missiles ,having 10000km range & having 1000km detection range PESA radar which lacks LPI/can be jammed & 1000kn engine with higher IR signature & also heavy maintenance prone
2)5TH GEN AVIONICS & SENSOR SYSTEM
a) rafale'S FSO is far better than Su 35's OLS-35 IRST (Max Detection Range: 90 kilometer)in detection range fso detection range:130 km)
Seeker gets on track
OLS-35
also FSO NG is upcoming next
b)AREOS RECO NG
they dont have anything comparable to it
c)RBE 2 AESA RADAR
ADV: i) LPI
ii) less prone to electronic jamming
iii) more target scanning 40 targets
d) SPECTRA ew suite with ELINT/SIGNIT capabilty
SU 35 also has upgraded ew suite but Spectra has some extra features which make it far too superior compared to Russian self protection suite L175M Khibiny-M electronic-warfare self-defense system on SU-35
also Spectra NG is already on the development with upgraded GaN modules with far more range
f)Sensor fusion
rafale's awesome speciality is it's faster 5th gen system core processor which integrates data & information at much faster
rate than it's russian Su 35 competitor
RAFALE'S 5TH GEN SYSTEM CORE
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi.../Defence/2000/Mirage_2000-9_special_issue.pdf
here is a coool video about french avionics in rafale enjoy!!!
3)MUCH SUPERIOR ARMAMENTS
BVRAAMs
a)Meteor BVRAAM which is world's 1st operational ramjet powered missile which has world's longest No escape zone missile .Russia's have yet to field anything comparable to it though they are developing.
Dassault Aviation, acteur majeur de lindustrie aéronautique mondiale to-air-capabilities.html?L=1
b)MICA IR bvraam is one of the longest range IR guided missile till date now though Russian R 73 missile is very good missile but it lacks range of Mica IR which is more critical
AIR TO GROUND MISSILES
a) SCALP - it is a stealthy air launched cruise missile with superior guidance system
whats different about SCALP/storm shadow missile that makes it more stealthy than russian ALCM .?
ans: SCALP/STORM shadom
stealthy body shaping & coating
superior guidance & navigation system
scalp can be released at very low level
The flight path of the missile is planned before the mission on a dedicated system which supports up to 16 missiles. This capability enables the pilot to launch the missile from a relatively wide "window", which does not expose him to risk of detection and engagement with enemy air defenses.
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...dacteur/Defence/Rafale/Fox_Three_N_14_UK2.pdf
http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/Storm-Shadow_ds.pdf
Storm Shadow / SCALP EG Cruise Missile
b)ASMP {Air-Sol Moyenne Portée}
it is french's strategic air launched cruise missile with supersonic speed with range of 500km .Russian SU 35 dont have any thing comparable to it as Klub is subsonic /Yakhont air launched is still in development but it lacks range .
in future india's case Brahmos air launched version / Brahmos 2 hypersonic version can be installed
c)HAMMER missile
very effective & highly accurate (CEP-1m) proven in afganistan & libya
Sagem
capabilty to be fired through SPECTRA in suppresion of enemy's airdefences (SAM radars)
Sagem cites a range capability of more than 32nm from high altitude, or 8nm from low level. Launches can also be made from an off-axis angle of up to 90°, while up to six weapons can be fired against individual targets in a single pass and with just one trigger press."
France's Rafale fighter proves its 'omnirole' skills
meanwhile the russian KAB 500 /1000/ have inferior CEP(7m) & range compare to hammer
III) foreign made weapons
a)Brimstone (missile) air to surface anti armour missile
though it is not operational yet but growing requirement for a superior missile with less collateral damage is prompting french officials to procure it .though Indian may procure it.very effective & accurate
http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i441/somnath30/RAFALE/BRIMSTONEUNDERSTUDYFORRAFALE.jpg
b) GBU series bombs
cheaper than Sagem hammer useful in lesser value targets
c) Brahmos/ nirbhay
in case of Indian MMRCA case
SU 35 has advantage in case of anti radiation missile like kh 31P & variety of anti ship missiles in comparision to rafale's exocet AScM.Meanwhile Russians dont want to install foreign made weapons in their planes for security reasons
4)BETTER MULTI ROLE CAPABLE FIGHTER
both SU 35 & Rafale have been promoted as a multi role fighter but facts supports rafale that it is indeed a much better multi role fighter
a)switzerland leaked evaluation report
2008 analysis
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-E2bVIJBst...CWB4g/s1600/Swiss_eval_NWA1_appreciations.png
2009 analysis
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Lj-Vmw8lg...Wxe3A/s1600/Swiss_eval_NWA2_appreciations.png
http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale/pdf/12332.pdf
Rafale News: Switzerland, Evaluation report quick analysis
b)DUTCH EVALUATION REPORT IN 2001
http://img.over-blog.com/499x342/0/50/29/09//AvionJSFAnalysMd-Nrc080909-copie-1.jpg
Avion de chasse: les Pays-Bas ont-ils favorisé le F-35 ? - bruxelles2 Europe de la Défense
Dedefensa.org : To The Point, Context n°50 (March-April 2002) - The Road to Chaos and The Dutch Way
c) other missions which rafale has proven of not Su-35
i) buddy to buddy rufuelling in libya
ii) aerial recognaissance thanks to it's AREOS RECO ng in mali & libya
iii) one of the finest proven platform in SEAD & DEAD missions unlike Su 35 in Libya
Rafale is undisputedly a more mature & proven multirole fighter than Su 35
5) CUTTING EDGE FUTURE UPGRADES
Rafale has a tremendous future upgrades plan in form of F3+ variant
a) Uprated M 88 engine may be with thrust vectoring
b) Upgraded avionics & ECM suite like FSO IT, SPECTRA NG ,PDL NG & MAWS NG
Rafale Upgrade Ready in 2012
c)Rafale pilots can control & order UCAVS like (neuron) to strike targets, from rafale only
The Dassault Rafale
d)RCS improvements like CFT , enclosed weapon pods ,redesigned air intake for higher thrust engines
{COURTESY: Jackonicko from Key Pub Forum THANK U FOR THE INFO MATE}
e)DIRCM(Directional based Infra Red countermeasures) compatible DDM NG
f) Conformal radar antenna Array located all around the airframe exactly like PAK-FA in wings & rear end
Rafale News: Rafale F3-O4T and beyond
Meanwhile Su 35 's future upgrades depends upon it's manufacturing order alone whether it is from Russian airforce /or from
export customers as recently 30-40 planes have been ordered from Russian airforce & Venezuela is known to be 1st export customer though the deal hasnt been signed yet.
6)MANEUVERABILITY
Well both fighters known to have supermanuveurabilty but SU 35 has known to have a an extra adavantage of TVC But still Rafale has proven in various aerial wargames it's manuveurablity skills .
I)RAFALE THRASHING TYPHOON 9-1 in Solenzara, 2009.
II)Rafale's War Game with F-22 (2009)
III)RAFALE'S SUPERB PERFORMANCE IN AERIAL EXERCISE WITH MIRAGE 2000 & f16:
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...resse/lbg07/defense/rafale/foxThree_nr_10.pdf
Though Su 35 has mesmerized everyone with it's awesome manuveurabilty in air shows but post stall manuveurabilty looks good only in airshows ,but in combat u need amazing turn rate without losing air speed much which rafale boasts to have .
CONCLUSION
Well Su 35 is a formidable fighter no doubt about it ,but rafale's advantages over Su 35 gives Rafale an edge in BVR warfare but in within VBR warfare Su 35 armed with R 73 missiles & TVC installled engines can give a tough fight to the Rafale.
Why india did a wise thing by upgrading SU 30 mki to Super Su 30 rather than buying Su 35?
1)Indian Super su 30 mki would have a cutting edge Zhuk-AE AESA radar meanwhile Irbis E has a PESA radar & Aesa is always technically superior to a PESA radar though it is expensive
2)Super Su -30 mki upgrades are still classified but what we know from sources along with an Aesa radar it is going to have
a) new cockpit may be larger size display units
b) upgraded mission computers ( probablly new system core)
c) New EW suite equivalent to Su 35's EW suite
d) Advanced Stealth characteristics ( more composites / better Ram coating)
e) Abilty to carry Brahmos ALCM ( certain structural modifications if required)
f) Even foreign weapon's & indigeious weapon integration could also be possible like Meteor ,Brimstone Astra & nirbhay
IAF's Sukhoi jets to be upgraded to fifth generation fighters
IAF to upgrade Su-30MKIs to 'Super Sukhoi' standard - Economic Times
3)The problem with Flanker derivatives is it's high RCS no matter how they upgrade it .The biggest drawback of flanker derivatives is it's Straight air intake design as it is a big blunder for stealth as they still havent installed a radar blocker in it's engine in SU 35 .So stealth wise both Su 35 & Super Su 30 are going to even & inferior to western 4.5 gen fighters counter part no matter how they boast of reduced RCS.So no point of buying SU 35 rather than why not upgrading Su 30 mki .
4)Russian Su 35 still would have some advantages in performance aspect like higher thrust engines, more range & higher T/W ratio but those advantages are not decisive nor overwhelming in comparision to Super su 30
5)Russia have always known to sold similiar weapons platform to china like SU -30 MkK ,yes the chinese are developing & inducting J11b & j15 but despite all that Russia always find ways to persuade China to buy it's weapons for financial reasons
So why should india buy a platform which has no guarantee that it wont be sold to china .
6)India & Russia are already partners in developing a 5th gen plane (PAK-FA) which is a futuristic fighter designed to meet future aerial threats .SO why waste money on buying a new plane like Su 35 which's capabilty can be matched by upgrading that similiar kind of plane with added features like that of Su 30 mki to Super Su 30 standard
Last edited by a moderator:
Okay India is the best. You happy?
