China claims based on old text , while other claims based on sea shore distance.
Will India choose J20 or FGFA if China and India didn't have 1962 conflict ?
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帅的一匹
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Then Andaman shall belong to Bangladesh.
sure why not , but they haven't made any claims yet, though BD was also the part of India Initially.
third eye
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Wars never solve problems, they only make them worse. However, in hind sight China did a good turn to India by shaking its leadership out of its complacency . Nine years later India created a nation in the Sub continent.
Seen from a Chinese POV you are right. However, as events showed India back then did not have the ability to put its PMs words into action.
Well, whats done is done.
I agree entirely, This war has driven a wedge between what could have been two large & capable neighbors & given the West a run for their money.
Yes, you are right. There are two events that had immense impact on the Indian psyche & formed the basis for things that India did in the years to follow.
The first was 1962 & the second in my opinion was the presence of the US 7th Fleet in the Bay of Bengal in 1971.
The answer India had was.. Never again.
I still feel we could. It will take a while but shall happen.
Hephaestus
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That's all that is needed.
Asoka
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In my opinion, the chance of the Indians receiving FGFA or the PAK-FA from the Russian, is vanishing small, simply because this is their top fighter, and India is a defactto american military ally. US is on the verge of hot war, perhaps even a nuclear one, with both Russia and China. So for the Russian to transfer the technology the top fighter is practically nil.
If I were the Indians, I would have thought of how the Russian feel, before signing those military agreements with the US.
https://warisboring.com/india-and-t...ark-defense-agreement-2cb8fc3127d3#.qm109x34o
Note: This piece is from IDN archives.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/02/idn- archives-why-india-should-dump-fgfa.html
Why India Should Dump The FGFA Project?
Like most other Russian projects the FGFA or the PAK-FA is one which was high on promise but low on delivery. The specs for this aircraft promises a lot in terms of technology where the Russians are known to be lacking in capability and even they are unsure about their capacity to deliver. Lets look at specs of the T-50 aircraft which is available in Wikipedia.
The FGFA is a derivative from the PAK-FA wherein the India specific customization are sought to be done on the T-50 platform as per IAF’s requirement. So there is no joint development as such.
Length: 19.8 m (65.0 ft)
Wingspan: 13.95 m (45.8 ft)
Height: 4.74 m (15.6 ft)
Wing area: 78.8 m2 (848.1 ft2)
Empty weight: 18,000 kg (39,680 lb)
Loaded weight: 25,000 kg (55,115 lb) typical mission weight, 29,270 kg (64,530 lb) at full load
Max. takeoff weight: 35,000 kg (77,160 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × NPO Saturn izdeliye 117 (AL-41F1) or initial production, izdeliye 30 for later production thrust vectoring turbofan
Dry thrust: 93.1 kN / 110 kN (21,000 lbf / 24,300 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 147 kN / 176 kN (33,067 lbf / 39,600 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 10,300 kg (22,700 lb)
Engine
The T-50 uses the NPO Saturn AL-41F1 engine with a dry thrust of 93kN.This is quite inadequate. Typically a 5th Generation aircraft with Supercruise as one of the main features should have a engine with a dry thrust of 110 – 120 kN.Such aircraft should not use afterburners because use of afterburners would give away the stealth. The Russians do not possess any proven design for such an engine and even if they come out with one, the result could be similar to that of Su – 30 MKI which has a track record of frequent burn-outs.
Stealth Badly Engineered
Startling similarities between Su-35 and PAK-FA
There is no clear vision as to how stealth will be achieved, neither does it make heavy use of sloped angles as in F-22 Raptor nor does it make use of composites. The air frame contains a lot of joins which is symbolic of poor construction techniques. Out of 12 weapon hard points 6 are internal and 6 are on the wings. The hard points on the wings give away the stealthiness of an aircraft, thus it leaves no in doubt about the fact that stealth is poorly engineered.
India will get a badly engineered base model which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.
Avionics
The avionics suite as known in public domain is:
Sh121 multi-functional integrated radio electronic system (MIRES)
N079 AESA radar
L402 Himalayas ECM suite built by KNIRTI institute
101KS Atoll electro-optical suite
101KS-O: Laser-based counter-measures against infrared missiles
101KS-V: IRST for airborne targets
101KS-U: Ultraviolet warning sensors
101KS-N: Targeting pod
This looks pretty ordinary and there is nothing which stands out as being uncommon or not available in aircraft of similar nature.
AESA Radar
N079 AESA Radar
The N079 is based on the N036 Byelka model, different versions of which were displayed at the MAKS airshow in 2009 and 2013.The radar system developed by Tikhomirov NIIP Institute consists of both X-band and L-band arrays but its performance against leading US models, especially the APG-77(V)2 of F-22A Raptor is unknown and kept secret for obvious reasons.
Russian Trial & Error at India’s Cost
The T-50 is the prototype developed for the Russian Air Force under the PAK-FA project. The FGFA is a derivative from the PAK-FA wherein the India specific customizations are sought to be done on the T-50 platform as per IAF’s requirement. So there is no joint development as such.
On 25 January 2016, it was reported that Russia and India have agreed to develop FGFA and lower investment cost to $4 billion for each nation, down from $5.5 billion earlier.
Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks…
Should it cost $4 billion to make some customization? Informed sources say that it is the cost of development of the entire model and Russia will not invest a single rubble.
In other words, Russia is fooling India to fund the development of its 5th Generation fighter aircraft base model i.e.T-50 which will be further developed by them as per their needs.
What will India get?
India will get a badly engineered base model, which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter, with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.
Transfer of Technology Problems
If we were to assume that Russia would develop a new powerful engine for this aircraft, re-engineer stealth and do every other thing to make it a world-class 5th Generation fighter jet one question still remains. Would it transfer technology to India?
Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks even though India purchased those in large numbers. In the case of Su -30 India placed the first order in 1996 for 50 Russian made Su-30′s.Thereafter several upgrades happened till 2012. On 24 December 2012, India ordered assembly kits for 42 Su-30MKIs by signing a deal during President Putin’s visit to India. This increases India’s order total to 272 Su-30MKIs. Russia didn’t transfer the Engine technology and HAL is dependent on Russia for components to assemble the engine and some spare parts. All this after India paid a whopping $15 Billion to Russia for design, development, CKD’s and SKD’s.
At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money.
So it is likely that Russia won’t transfer crucial technology of the new fighter jet making India ever dependent on it for components, spares etc even after spending a hefty $4 Billion on so called” design and development”.
In short the Russians plan is to milk India for the next 30 years, knowing fully well that she needs a 5th Generation fighter jet. The offer of “joint design and development” is just the entry point in their diabolical game plan.
Conclusion
Recent news suggest that the talks between India and Russia failed to decide on the S-400 surface-to-air missile system. India has stated that it wants to buy the next-generation air and missiles defense system but Russia wants to link the potential purchase to the PAK-FA deal.
This suggests that Russia is aware that its bear hug with respect to the PAK-FA deal may not work, so it is trying to coerce India into it using another deal.
According to India Today, New Delhi has lost confidence in the Russian T-50 PAK-FA effort after Moscow truncated its buy to about a squadron’s worth of jets. The prevailing view within the Indian air force is that if Russia—which is the senior partner—is backing out of the program, then it will be left as the sole operator of an aircraft that largely fails to meet its requirements. Instead of buying PAK-FA, Russia is planning to continue production of advanced Su-30 and Su-35 Flanker variants.
India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA. In other words, the above is a Russian no-confidence vote against their own product.
If the Russians are not confident about their own product should we repose confidence in it. The answer is a simple no.
At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money. India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA.
Its always better that we spend billions of dollars in training our own scientists and engineers in developing 5th Generation stealth fighter jet technology as it will not only strengthen our defense but also provide jobs to millions of our countrymen.
Quite rightly the Indian MoD, IAF has expressed reservations over this deal and they should now go one step further to dump it.
Note: This piece is from IDN archives, found it relevant even now as so much of noise is being made of this project but no clear headway is visible on the ground
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/ ... ould-dump-fgfa.html
If I were the Indians, I would have thought of how the Russian feel, before signing those military agreements with the US.
https://warisboring.com/india-and-t...ark-defense-agreement-2cb8fc3127d3#.qm109x34o
Note: This piece is from IDN archives.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/02/idn- archives-why-india-should-dump-fgfa.html
Why India Should Dump The FGFA Project?
Like most other Russian projects the FGFA or the PAK-FA is one which was high on promise but low on delivery. The specs for this aircraft promises a lot in terms of technology where the Russians are known to be lacking in capability and even they are unsure about their capacity to deliver. Lets look at specs of the T-50 aircraft which is available in Wikipedia.
The FGFA is a derivative from the PAK-FA wherein the India specific customization are sought to be done on the T-50 platform as per IAF’s requirement. So there is no joint development as such.
Length: 19.8 m (65.0 ft)
Wingspan: 13.95 m (45.8 ft)
Height: 4.74 m (15.6 ft)
Wing area: 78.8 m2 (848.1 ft2)
Empty weight: 18,000 kg (39,680 lb)
Loaded weight: 25,000 kg (55,115 lb) typical mission weight, 29,270 kg (64,530 lb) at full load
Max. takeoff weight: 35,000 kg (77,160 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × NPO Saturn izdeliye 117 (AL-41F1) or initial production, izdeliye 30 for later production thrust vectoring turbofan
Dry thrust: 93.1 kN / 110 kN (21,000 lbf / 24,300 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 147 kN / 176 kN (33,067 lbf / 39,600 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 10,300 kg (22,700 lb)
Engine
The T-50 uses the NPO Saturn AL-41F1 engine with a dry thrust of 93kN.This is quite inadequate. Typically a 5th Generation aircraft with Supercruise as one of the main features should have a engine with a dry thrust of 110 – 120 kN.Such aircraft should not use afterburners because use of afterburners would give away the stealth. The Russians do not possess any proven design for such an engine and even if they come out with one, the result could be similar to that of Su – 30 MKI which has a track record of frequent burn-outs.
Stealth Badly Engineered
Startling similarities between Su-35 and PAK-FA
There is no clear vision as to how stealth will be achieved, neither does it make heavy use of sloped angles as in F-22 Raptor nor does it make use of composites. The air frame contains a lot of joins which is symbolic of poor construction techniques. Out of 12 weapon hard points 6 are internal and 6 are on the wings. The hard points on the wings give away the stealthiness of an aircraft, thus it leaves no in doubt about the fact that stealth is poorly engineered.
India will get a badly engineered base model which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.
Avionics
The avionics suite as known in public domain is:
Sh121 multi-functional integrated radio electronic system (MIRES)
N079 AESA radar
L402 Himalayas ECM suite built by KNIRTI institute
101KS Atoll electro-optical suite
101KS-O: Laser-based counter-measures against infrared missiles
101KS-V: IRST for airborne targets
101KS-U: Ultraviolet warning sensors
101KS-N: Targeting pod
This looks pretty ordinary and there is nothing which stands out as being uncommon or not available in aircraft of similar nature.
AESA Radar
N079 AESA Radar
The N079 is based on the N036 Byelka model, different versions of which were displayed at the MAKS airshow in 2009 and 2013.The radar system developed by Tikhomirov NIIP Institute consists of both X-band and L-band arrays but its performance against leading US models, especially the APG-77(V)2 of F-22A Raptor is unknown and kept secret for obvious reasons.
Russian Trial & Error at India’s Cost
The T-50 is the prototype developed for the Russian Air Force under the PAK-FA project. The FGFA is a derivative from the PAK-FA wherein the India specific customizations are sought to be done on the T-50 platform as per IAF’s requirement. So there is no joint development as such.
On 25 January 2016, it was reported that Russia and India have agreed to develop FGFA and lower investment cost to $4 billion for each nation, down from $5.5 billion earlier.
Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks…
Should it cost $4 billion to make some customization? Informed sources say that it is the cost of development of the entire model and Russia will not invest a single rubble.
In other words, Russia is fooling India to fund the development of its 5th Generation fighter aircraft base model i.e.T-50 which will be further developed by them as per their needs.
What will India get?
India will get a badly engineered base model, which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter, with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.
Transfer of Technology Problems
If we were to assume that Russia would develop a new powerful engine for this aircraft, re-engineer stealth and do every other thing to make it a world-class 5th Generation fighter jet one question still remains. Would it transfer technology to India?
Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks even though India purchased those in large numbers. In the case of Su -30 India placed the first order in 1996 for 50 Russian made Su-30′s.Thereafter several upgrades happened till 2012. On 24 December 2012, India ordered assembly kits for 42 Su-30MKIs by signing a deal during President Putin’s visit to India. This increases India’s order total to 272 Su-30MKIs. Russia didn’t transfer the Engine technology and HAL is dependent on Russia for components to assemble the engine and some spare parts. All this after India paid a whopping $15 Billion to Russia for design, development, CKD’s and SKD’s.
At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money.
So it is likely that Russia won’t transfer crucial technology of the new fighter jet making India ever dependent on it for components, spares etc even after spending a hefty $4 Billion on so called” design and development”.
In short the Russians plan is to milk India for the next 30 years, knowing fully well that she needs a 5th Generation fighter jet. The offer of “joint design and development” is just the entry point in their diabolical game plan.
Conclusion
Recent news suggest that the talks between India and Russia failed to decide on the S-400 surface-to-air missile system. India has stated that it wants to buy the next-generation air and missiles defense system but Russia wants to link the potential purchase to the PAK-FA deal.
This suggests that Russia is aware that its bear hug with respect to the PAK-FA deal may not work, so it is trying to coerce India into it using another deal.
According to India Today, New Delhi has lost confidence in the Russian T-50 PAK-FA effort after Moscow truncated its buy to about a squadron’s worth of jets. The prevailing view within the Indian air force is that if Russia—which is the senior partner—is backing out of the program, then it will be left as the sole operator of an aircraft that largely fails to meet its requirements. Instead of buying PAK-FA, Russia is planning to continue production of advanced Su-30 and Su-35 Flanker variants.
India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA. In other words, the above is a Russian no-confidence vote against their own product.
If the Russians are not confident about their own product should we repose confidence in it. The answer is a simple no.
At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money. India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA.
Its always better that we spend billions of dollars in training our own scientists and engineers in developing 5th Generation stealth fighter jet technology as it will not only strengthen our defense but also provide jobs to millions of our countrymen.
Quite rightly the Indian MoD, IAF has expressed reservations over this deal and they should now go one step further to dump it.
Note: This piece is from IDN archives, found it relevant even now as so much of noise is being made of this project but no clear headway is visible on the ground
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/ ... ould-dump-fgfa.html
Last edited:
anant_s
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I wouldn't go that far, atleast for now.
See Russia requires money into the project and with China developing its own 5th generation platforms, India is only ally in this project. However with India now getting more options, it now has a liberty to prolong things and squeeze best out of deal.
Someday Chinese AF will start basing J-20 and J-31 in Tibet and from threat perception point of view, India will require a matching capability only then. however when is that someday, is anybody's guess.
Right now focus is on introducing Rafale and replacement of MiG 21/27 platforms.
Asoka
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The article I quoted is written by an Indian. So it cannot be said, it is the biased opinion of a Chinese or foreigner.
Here is his conclusion about the deal.
"What will India get?
India will get a badly engineered base model, which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter, with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement."
When the Indians are thinking getting a 5th generation plane from the Russian, they are thinking about this plane.
This plane has been flying since 2010.
1.) Have the Indians even allow to take a look of this plane up close?
2.) Have the Russians invited the Indians for a test flight?
3.) Have the Russians transferred any design informations to the Indians?
4.) Have the Indian participated in the design process at all?
5.) Have the Russian disclosed any confidential technical informations to the Indians?
6.) Have the Indians allowed access to the manufacturing plant?
Obviously, NO. So why do the Indians think they are partner in this FGFA or the PAK-FA project? I think they were mistaken. The Russians were probably thinking about a severely downgraded version of this plane.
The Indians are Russian customers, not partners, nor allies. Never was. Not even during the days of 1960-2010.
The Indians are not going to get this plane. Period.
The Russians are not going to give this plane to an American ally. As simple as that. The Indians would have been wise, if they have thought of this first, before they jumped onto the American bandwagon and signed those military agreements.
In my belief, the only chance of the Indian to get is F-35. Their Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) is only a pipe dream. It will never comes to anything like Made in India. Because India can't even manufacture any of the major components in their LCA, yet. All are imports.
The fact that China will never sell J-20 to Pakistan, a close friend or to anybody else in the world. And F-22 is banned from export to even close US allies, like Israel and Japan, speaks loudly that India will never get FGFA or the PAK-FA from Russia.
A Chinese Leader once said, we cannot buy military technology from other countries, we must develop them by ourselves.
When will the Indians learn that this is true?
Here is his conclusion about the deal.
"What will India get?
India will get a badly engineered base model, which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter, with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement."
When the Indians are thinking getting a 5th generation plane from the Russian, they are thinking about this plane.
This plane has been flying since 2010.
1.) Have the Indians even allow to take a look of this plane up close?
2.) Have the Russians invited the Indians for a test flight?
3.) Have the Russians transferred any design informations to the Indians?
4.) Have the Indian participated in the design process at all?
5.) Have the Russian disclosed any confidential technical informations to the Indians?
6.) Have the Indians allowed access to the manufacturing plant?
Obviously, NO. So why do the Indians think they are partner in this FGFA or the PAK-FA project? I think they were mistaken. The Russians were probably thinking about a severely downgraded version of this plane.
The Indians are Russian customers, not partners, nor allies. Never was. Not even during the days of 1960-2010.
The Indians are not going to get this plane. Period.
The Russians are not going to give this plane to an American ally. As simple as that. The Indians would have been wise, if they have thought of this first, before they jumped onto the American bandwagon and signed those military agreements.
In my belief, the only chance of the Indian to get is F-35. Their Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) is only a pipe dream. It will never comes to anything like Made in India. Because India can't even manufacture any of the major components in their LCA, yet. All are imports.
The fact that China will never sell J-20 to Pakistan, a close friend or to anybody else in the world. And F-22 is banned from export to even close US allies, like Israel and Japan, speaks loudly that India will never get FGFA or the PAK-FA from Russia.
A Chinese Leader once said, we cannot buy military technology from other countries, we must develop them by ourselves.
When will the Indians learn that this is true?
Last edited:
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