PAF speeds up fighter force modernisation with JF-17 Block III- Gulf News

[baqai]

Just wait till next Thursday - new issue of AFM will have the most accurate report.

can't wait for my copy, you think they would have something on J-10s in there?

 

[Abid123]

There is never any quote for single unit of J-31 officially from China side for it's price.

And China never say it will induct JF-17 into it's unit as combat squadron. What you heard about China inducting , are only from Pakistan side. It is obviously Chinese is fully concentrate on its J-10 program from start.

There was a expert from 2017 that quoted the price at around 70 million USD.

"We expect that the plane's price will be around $70 million, about half that of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II from the US, which is the only fifth-generation fighter jet available on the market from the US, which only sells it to allies." Fu Qianshao, an aircraft expert with the PLA Air Force was quoted as saying by China Daily Tuesday'".

China Offers FC-31 Stealth Fighter At Half the Price of US F-35- Paris Air Show 2017

China launched the global marketing of its FC-31 stealth fighter jet that costs about US$70 million, about half the price of the Lockheed Martin F-35, at Paris Air Show 2017. “We expect that the plane’s price will be around $70 million, about half that of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II...

www.defenseworld.net

 

[Beast]

There was a expert from 2017 that quoted the price at around 70 million USD.

"We expect that the plane's price will be around $70 million, about half that of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II from the US, which is the only fifth-generation fighter jet available on the market from the US, which only sells it to allies." Fu Qianshao, an aircraft expert with the PLA Air Force was quoted as saying by China Daily Tuesday'".

China Offers FC-31 Stealth Fighter At Half the Price of US F-35- Paris Air Show 2017

China launched the global marketing of its FC-31 stealth fighter jet that costs about US$70 million, about half the price of the Lockheed Martin F-35, at Paris Air Show 2017. “We expect that the plane’s price will be around $70 million, about half that of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II...

www.defenseworld.net

That is just an estimation ,the price range can be quite wide. He do have a airforce background from PLAAF but still it's not official anything from AVIC.

 

[tphuang]

I think there are some complexities here. Please correct me if I am wrong but I am writing from memory and some conjecture from my side so happy to be corrected.
The J35/31 project till recently has been a private venture. That means the Chinese had not committed any resources to the project. To be fair , even though there are rumors of Chinese Government involvement, no one can say with any certainty whether this has happened. The baseline model had already been developed so the assumption was to help the Chinese party develop their product without any sovereign Chinese funds being made available. Now this is where the problems arise. Firstly it is a project without any known engine based on a very inadequate RD93, with no suitable 5th generation engine in sight. Even now PAF has yet to officially commit to a Chinese engine and news keep coming out of J10 being acquired with AL31 engine (I am merely writing this as no confirmation has come through as to what powers the Pakistani J10s). We do not know what systems have been developed and the Chinese could well turn around and deny us the AESA radar/ other hardware of the J20 on the basis of the project being a private one. Other providers will be reluctant to provide help for fear of leakage of information to the Chinese
PAF has felt all along that it will commit to a project once it has seen a commitment from the Chinese Government as that opens up all avenues for the platform to partake of any hardware that has been in use by the Chinese. Normally PAF will try out a Western hardware and ask the Chinese to bring out a comparable one for the JFT. Where one is not available they have gone for a hardware from other providers till the Chinese provide you with one of their own. 5th generation technology is complex and I am unsure EU products would be wanted for preservation of the secrecy of the platform. The Turks will be out as it is none of their business what PAF does as long as they are getting nothing out of it. So PAF avenues for help would revert back to the Chinese giving them the power to dictate what they provide at whatever price they want.
With a prototype already developed and perhaps not to PAF's liking they might require changes which would then open a Pandora's box of time, money , manpower, repeated testing. The cost escalations in that case would be something which PAF would not be able to bear.
Instead PAF has kept itself open to suggestions, liaising with the Turks and the Chinese as and when required. Various subparts/Hardware can be acquired from wherever it becomes available and PAF still retains the intellectual rights over the project. In case it encounters difficulties it can negotiate with either the Turks or the Chinese to get on one of their projects which hopefully would be developing by then. The cost would be less and in turn for giving up local research the PAF can demand a higher chare in the development of the platform with some workshare agreement. In view of getting rid of competition it would seem like a sustainable sacrifice for any provider.
So in short I think the decision is a good one and will bear fruits in the long run. I don't see production starting till the mid 30s but the overall outcome would be better for PAF than not having anything in their hands.
My 2 paisa's worth.
A

FC-31/J35 was always a PLA project. You don't proceed as far as SAC have with just private funding and no guaranteed export customers. If it did, the project would look a lot like that joke Su-75 project out of Russia. It starts off with WS-21 as engine (roughly in the same generation as improved RD-33/93) but will eventually use WS-19. Not too different from the J-20 project that is currently on WS-10C, but will eventually use WS-15. At this point, J-20 is a resounding success of a program. I have no reason to believe that FC-31/J-35 would be anything. It will get plenty of orders from both the Air Force and the Navy.

The reality is that China is improving in military aviation much faster than anyone expected. Unless US allows F-35 exports to Pakistan, PAF will have no 5th generation option aside from FC-31 for a long time. It takes a lot of resource to develop a 5th generation plane. The Russians have been working on Su-57 for a long time and still have only managed to build 3 production aircraft that aren't even sufficiently stealthy. There is no other option out there that would be truly 5th generation. Don't keep making it sound like it's a bad thing to get Chinese aircraft. It's kind of offensive that you would compare Turkey's to China's military aviation industry. The gap is pretty large.

You just have to look at India to see how hard it is to get a real 5th generation fighter jet. We are in 2022 and they still have no realistic plan to get a real 5th generation aircraft into service by 2030. The only thing they have on the horizon is a "super-MKI" and probably more Rafale. There are only two countries out there who have shown they can successfully develop and mass produce 5th generation aircraft. They are both going to get to 6th generation aircraft by around 2035. It's a good thing that PAF is on really friendly terms with one of them.

 

[MastanKhan]

FC-31/J35 was always a PLA project. You don't proceed as far as SAC have with just private funding and no guaranteed export customers. If it did, the project would look a lot like that joke Su-75 project out of Russia. It starts off with WS-21 as engine (roughly in the same generation as improved RD-33/93) but will eventually use WS-19. Not too different from the J-20 project that is currently on WS-10C, but will eventually use WS-15. At this point, J-20 is a resounding success of a program. I have no reason to believe that FC-31/J-35 would be anything. It will get plenty of orders from both the Air Force and the Navy.

The reality is that China is improving in military aviation much faster than anyone expected. Unless US allows F-35 exports to Pakistan, PAF will have no 5th generation option aside from FC-31 for a long time. It takes a lot of resource to develop a 5th generation plane. The Russians have been working on Su-57 for a long time and still have only managed to build 3 production aircraft that aren't even sufficiently stealthy. There is no other option out there that would be truly 5th generation. Don't keep making it sound like it's a bad thing to get Chinese aircraft. It's kind of offensive that you would compare Turkey's to China's military aviation industry. The gap is pretty large.

You just have to look at India to see how hard it is to get a real 5th generation fighter jet. We are in 2022 and they still have no realistic plan to get a real 5th generation aircraft into service by 2030. The only thing they have on the horizon is a "super-MKI" and probably more Rafale. There are only two countries out there who have shown they can successfully develop and mass produce 5th generation aircraft. They are both going to get to 6th generation aircraft by around 2035. It's a good thing that PAF is on really friendly terms with one of them.

Hi,

Having two aircraft the J20 and the J31 come out close to each other a few years ago was a shocker to the western world.

US was hornet mad at the similarity between the J31 and the F35---.

The chinese decided wisely to continue with the J20 and leave the J31 on the back burner---. During that time---many considered it a failed project---oh well.

Now that the J20 is in its final maturing the stage the J31 has made some serious progress in its developmental phase.

The interesting thing here is that the chinese have learnt to put a lid on any unwanted information coming out and that does not make Deino very happy.

 

[GumNaam]

Hi,

Having two aircraft the J20 and the J31 come out close to each other a few years ago was a shocker to the western world.

US was hornet mad at the similarity between the J31 and the F35---.

The chinese decided wisely to continue with the J20 and leave the J31 on the back burner---. During that time---many considered it a failed project---oh well.

Now that the J20 is in its final maturing the stage the J31 has made some serious progress in its developmental phase.

The interesting thing here is that the chinese have learnt to put a lid on any unwanted information coming out and that does not make Deino very happy.

J31 is neither a failed project nor on the back burner. it is PLAN's carrier based stealth fighter.

 

[MastanKhan]

J31 is neither a failed project nor on the back burner. it is PLAN's carrier based stealth fighter.

Hi,

Youngman, if you did not understand what I wrote---please ask me---. Even though it is in english---it is not too difficult to understand.

 

[araz]

FC-31/J35 was always a PLA project. You don't proceed as far as SAC have with just private funding and no guaranteed export customers. If it did, the project would look a lot like that joke Su-75 project out of Russia. It starts off with WS-21 as engine (roughly in the same generation as improved RD-33/93) but will eventually use WS-19. Not too different from the J-20 project that is currently on WS-10C, but will eventually use WS-15. At this point, J-20 is a resounding success of a program. I have no reason to believe that FC-31/J-35 would be anything. It will get plenty of orders from both the Air Force and the Navy.

The reality is that China is improving in military aviation much faster than anyone expected. Unless US allows F-35 exports to Pakistan, PAF will have no 5th generation option aside from FC-31 for a long time. It takes a lot of resource to develop a 5th generation plane. The Russians have been working on Su-57 for a long time and still have only managed to build 3 production aircraft that aren't even sufficiently stealthy. There is no other option out there that would be truly 5th generation. Don't keep making it sound like it's a bad thing to get Chinese aircraft. It's kind of offensive that you would compare Turkey's to China's military aviation industry. The gap is pretty large.

You just have to look at India to see how hard it is to get a real 5th generation fighter jet. We are in 2022 and they still have no realistic plan to get a real 5th generation aircraft into service by 2030. The only thing they have on the horizon is a "super-MKI" and probably more Rafale. There are only two countries out there who have shown they can successfully develop and mass produce 5th generation aircraft. They are both going to get to 6th generation aircraft by around 2035. It's a good thing that PAF is on really friendly terms with one of them.

Hi TP.
The information on the net has always been that the J31 has not got any support from the Chinese military and was a private SAC project. What is written is 2 projects were developed simultaneously and PLAAF chose J20. The SAC decided to develop J31 from its own resources and so the fundsran out which was why an international partner was being looked at. I have no access to PLAAF/PLA private dealings and am not aware of what the internal dynamics is. I would therefore rely on what has been written down.
Perhaps @Deino will venture an opinion
The bit about the engine is also true as it was running on RD93s till recently. To date I have not heard of any other engine being used on it. Please advice if that is not the case.
A

 

[Deino]

Hi,

Having two aircraft the J20 and the J31 come out close to each other a few years ago was a shocker to the western world.

US was hornet mad at the similarity between the J31 and the F35---.

The chinese decided wisely to continue with the J20 and leave the J31 on the back burner---. During that time---many considered it a failed project---oh well.

Now that the J20 is in its final maturing the stage the J31 has made some serious progress in its developmental phase.

The interesting thing here is that the chinese have learnt to put a lid on any unwanted information coming out and that does not make Deino very happy.

Seems as if you still think the FC-31 is nothing but a copied F-35 and run in parallel to the J-20? ... oh well you know nothing my friend!

but with the last sentence you are correct.

 

[tphuang]

Hi TP.
The information on the net has always been that the J31 has not got any support from the Chinese military and was a private SAC project. What is written is 2 projects were developed simultaneously and PLAAF chose J20. The SAC decided to develop J31 from its own resources and so the fundsran out which was why an international partner was being looked at. I have no access to PLAAF/PLA private dealings and am not aware of what the internal dynamics is. I would therefore rely on what has been written down.
Perhaps @Deino will venture an opinion
The bit about the engine is also true as it was running on RD93s till recently. To date I have not heard of any other engine being used on it. Please advice if that is not the case.
A

A lot of people online thought fc31 was a private venture due to it's appearance in air shows. But that was all a half hearted effort. Even j10 was showing up in air shows long before china was willing to export it.

Fc31 progress was slower than j20 because plaaf allocated a lot more fund for latter. Sac also had more urgent projects in j15 and j16. Both of those are finished. J20 is in mass production. The development for fc31 should be pretty easy from this point onward.

If you compare it to su57, it actually hasn't been that slow. It just look slow because j20 had such a quick introduction. It will be more stealthy and have better situation awareness and network centric capability than su57.

I would expect them to start producing production variant in 2 years based on the j20 timeline. It will use Chinese engines. The prototype was using ws21. In the future, it may switch to ws19. They are going to be able to start mass producing it by the second half of this decade as flanker orders wind down.

Once they can ramp up production on it, I am sure they are willing to export it to Pakistan. China will not allow India to have large qualitative advantage over Pakistan.

 

[syed_yusuf]

Hi,

Having two aircraft the J20 and the J31 come out close to each other a few years ago was a shocker to the western world.

US was hornet mad at the similarity between the J31 and the F35---.

The chinese decided wisely to continue with the J20 and leave the J31 on the back burner---. During that time---many considered it a failed project---oh well.

Now that the J20 is in its final maturing the stage the J31 has made some serious progress in its developmental phase.

The interesting thing here is that the chinese have learnt to put a lid on any unwanted information coming out and that does not make Deino very happy.

On top of it they are working on 3rd 5+gen fighter more to come in next few years

 

[MastanKhan]

Seems as if you still think the FC-31 is nothing but a copied F-35 and run in parallel to the J-20? ... oh well you know nothing my friend!

but with the last sentence you are correct.

Hi,

It is not me---it is the US congress that thinks it is. So don't fight me over this---.

A lot of people online thought fc31 was a private venture due to it's appearance in air shows. But that was all a half hearted effort. Even j10 was showing up in air shows long before china was willing to export it.

Fc31 progress was slower than j20 because plaaf allocated a lot more fund for latter. Sac also had more urgent projects in j15 and j16. Both of those are finished. J20 is in mass production. The development for fc31 should be pretty easy from this point onward.

If you compare it to su57, it actually hasn't been that slow. It just look slow because j20 had such a quick introduction. It will be more stealthy and have better situation awareness and network centric capability than su57.

I would expect them to start producing production variant in 2 years based on the j20 timeline. It will use Chinese engines. The prototype was using ws21. In the future, it may switch to ws19. They are going to be able to start mass producing it by the second half of this decade as flanker orders wind down.

Once they can ramp up production on it, I am sure they are willing to export it to Pakistan. China will not allow India to have large qualitative advantage over Pakistan.

Hi,

There is nothing wrong with the J31 project---. It has taken 30 + years for the Gripen to be where it is today---. Close to 30 years for the F35 to be where is---over 30 years for the F22---50 years for the F15 to be where it is now---.

So---the J31 is still a young buck.

The crash of soviet union borught some amaze=ing changes in the world---. Russia went broke and had no funds and directions for a modern capable aircraft and its systems---.

Chinese got influx of foreign funds and its industrial base took off---.

And the US---with the 1st gulf war and then the second gulf war---poured so much money into its defense industry that it has taken the weapons and weapons system to a very different plateau.

 

[MH.Yang]

J31/35 is a PLAN project, not a PLAAF project, this means that it will first develop naval models. Therefore, we cannot predict when the J31/35 air force model will mature, nor can we predict when India will acquire 5G fighters. It would be unwise for Pakistan to place all its hopes on J31/35. Pakistan&Turkey should consider introducing new partners for AZM projects, such as Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and other countries.

 

[araz]

J31/35 is a PLAN project, not a PLAFF project, this means that it will first develop naval models. Therefore, we cannot predict when the J31/35 air force model will mature, nor can we predict when India will acquire 5G fighters. It would be unwise for Pakistan to place all its hopes on J31/35. Pakistan&Turkey should consider introducing new partners for AZM projects, such as Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and other countries.

The problem is not introducing newer partners. The problem is the engine. Turkey says it has a viable programme for engine-development set to mature inate 20s. The chinese engines will be matured by then as well. The rest of the hardware can be acquired the engine remains the major bugbear for Pak-Turk products. The recent spats with the US has made the Turks realize the importance of full independence from foreign suppliers for major components.
A

 

[Deino]

Hi,

It is not me---it is the US congress that thinks it is. So don't fight me over this---.

No, only certain political circles within the US try to portray it as a simple rip off, but everyone with a bit understanding knows that regardless all undeniable stolen data - and so far no-one ever claimed, the whole package of CAD-blueprints was stolen - the FC-31 is NOT copy. Alone due to having two engines it cannot be a copy. But you take this again for granted since it fits your opinionated it allows you to continue with this …

Hi,

There is nothing wrong with the J31 project---. It has taken 30 + years for the Gripen to be where it is today---. Close to 30 years for the F35 to be where is---over 30 years for the F22---50 years for the F15 to be where it is now---.

So---the J31 is still a young buck.

The crash of soviet union borught some amaze=ing changes in the world---. Russia went broke and had no funds and directions for a modern capable aircraft and its systems---.

Chinese got influx of foreign funds and its industrial base took off---.

And the US---with the 1st gulf war and then the second gulf war---poured so much money into its defense industry that it has taken the weapons and weapons system to a very different plateau.

Again, plain wrong, since J-20 and FC-31 are totally unrelated. We all know, that the true SAC contender for the XXJ project was a large, heavy tri-plane design, that was less stealthy and allegedly less capable than CAC‘s design. In consequence, CAC won and developed the J-20 and SAC‘s design was abandoned.

In order to remain in fighter business, they started development of a smaller, eventually more multirole focused and carrier-suitable design, which became the FC-31.

Since at that time, it run not at the same priority it was „downgraded“ a private project aimed for export, but hey, do you really think in China a company like SAC is allowed to deVelop such a project with at least PLA and CMC agreeing?

Anyway, to portray the J-35 has a type that is full of issues and delayed since it is based on a lost contender and even more a copy of the F-35 is plain wrong.