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No country for brave men

These are all connected, and the military is tied in, too. The police and security forces are empowered by the extrajudicial power bestowed upon them by the accepted operation of the blasphemy law, the military and ISI interfere with the judicial system (that they themselves aren't even subject to!), and justice for the little guy is denied because the rich can bribe their way out of jams since the prosecutors aren't accountable to the people.

Do you really think Pakistan's internal strains can be relieved without breaking this Iron Foundation of religious hatred, civilian corruption, uncontrollable military, and vigilantism? I don't. But I can't see any of this happening without a core of brave men willing to organize and declare they are willing to change themselves and articulate and defend a a vision of Pakistan superior to that of the mullah-maddened masses.

Mullah based madness, ISI, military

plz name some more organizations :lol:


I have already told you Islam is not what Taliban or Al-Qaeda follows. So don't put Pakistan into that category (America is however trying its level best to make Taliban hero of Pakistani people)

And what vision of Pakistan without Islam


let me quote the founder of Pakistan
"The Muslims demand Pakistan where they could rule according to their own code of life and according to their own cultural growth, traditions, and Islamic Laws.”



“The Constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of man, justice and fairplay to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as framer of future constitution of Pakistan" (this one live on American radio Feb 1948)


“Come forward as servants of Islam, organise the people economically, socially, educationally and politically and I am sure that you will be a power that will be accepted by everybody.” (unfortunately Pakistanis have not paid any attention to these words)
 
And let me also explain what we mean by an Islamic state


as Quaid said

“It will be an Islamic state on the pattern of the Medina state with human rights, liberalism, democracy and complete tolerance and freedom of conscience to all citizens without any distinction of colour, creed, language, and race as granted by the Prophet of Islam Muhammad (peace be upon him) to Christians, Jews, idol worshippers and all others. Justice, brotherhood, liberty, equality and fraternity will reign supreme.”



And in Medina state on more than one occasion people were killed for trying to insult our Prophet
 
Mullah based madness, ISI, military

plz name some more organizations :lol:
I challenge you, Tiger!

I challenge you to reveal RIGHT HERE something constructive, some SPECIFIC act, deed, or initiative, to further your desired vision of Pakistan.

For if you do not do so, what can I - what can ANYONE - conclude other than that you are engaged in avoidance, or throwing smoke, or even conspiracy to obscure or further the current illness: a Pakistan burning up from within?
 
I challenge you, Tiger!

I challenge you to reveal RIGHT HERE something constructive, some SPECIFIC act, deed, or initiative, to further your desired vision of Pakistan.

For if you do not do so, what can I - what can ANYONE - conclude other than that you are engaged in avoidance, or throwing smoke, or even conspiracy to obscure or further the current illness: a Pakistan burning up from within?

yeah we are avoiding. we all Pakistanis. But before i prove something plz tell me

when was the last time America was satisfied with anything Pakistan did against Taliban??? Do more is what you people all know

and now you are asking to show more :lol:


What I mean by a constructive Pakistan is a country where people are given the rights mentioned in the quotes above (unfortunately still not given) thats it. We want equality but if you want to make fun of any religion ( including Islam) in an Islamic state then sorry, . You can assume us to be anything you want to.
 
You know that there is something wrong with a country when people are advocating murder like this. When that old women use to abuse the Prophet (saw) and throw garbage at him, did he kill her? No he acted like a sane and rational person and ignored her. Unfortunately the jahil people of Pakistan are too retarded to follow in the Prophet's (saw) example and would rather behave uncivilized and murder people. They are so ready to get over emotional about insignificant things but will not stand up against terrorism, no light, high food prices, etc.
Who stops you to work for light , work against terrorism , improve lifestyle of our people, but please dont do blasphemy and dont ask presidential pardon to a proven convict of insulting our prophet (p.b.u.h). Dont support such acts , by doing so you push the liberals like me to the camp of mullas . Our prophet pardoned that old lady because she was ignorant , Was Salman Taseer ignorant ?
 
Pakistanis mourn a once tolerant, relaxed nation

By NAHAL TOOSI
The Associated Press, Friday, January 7, 2011; 12:39 PM

ISLAMABAD -- A 60-year-old university administrator in the southern port city of Karachi is wistful as he recalls the more tolerant, freewheeling Pakistan of his youth.

Once, when a teacher suggested no book can be perfect, the boy asked if that included Islam's holy book, the Quran. That sparked a candid class discussion about religion. But in today's Pakistan, Muqtida Mansoor said he would never dare to ask the question in public.

After all, "anyone could shoot you."

Days after the assassination of Punjab Gov. Salman Taseer, one of the few politicians openly challenging the onslaught of religious extremism, Pakistani moderates are facing a new and troubling reality: Pakistan is a country where fundamentalism is becoming mainstream, leaving even less room for dissent, difference and many once-prevalent leisures such as public music, dance parties or other social contact between the sexes.

More liberal-minded Pakistanis have been left with a profound sense of loss, alienation and fear for the future. One rights activist forecast that at the rate Islamist groups are rising, a religious party could be ruling the country in 10 to 15 years.

The transformation is particularly disheartening for many younger Pakistanis.

"There is no concept of freedom of speech in this country," said Aaisha Aslam, 25, who works for a non-governmental organization. People with fanatic mindsets are "out to snatch this country from us."

The poles have shifted so much that it was not just bearded students from religious seminaries who this week praised the suspected killer of a politician who opposed blasphemy laws. Some religious scholars who oppose the Taliban also joined in - and lawyers showered him with rose petals.

"The silent majority does not want to take out a gun and shoot anyone, but at the same time they're not appalled by it when somebody else does," complained Fasi Zaka, 34, a radio host. "The majority are enablers."

Well before Tuesday's killing of Taseer, Pakistan's liberals had grown increasingly cautious about speaking out for minority protections, women's rights and other causes. Activists who once publicly advocated repealing the blasphemy laws - which mandate death for those deemed to have insulted Islam or the Quran - are now willing to settle for mere amendments.

"We are vulnerable," said Asma Jahangir, a small, hard-charging woman who is perhaps Pakistan's best-known human rights activist. "My name has come up, and of course you have to watch as you move around, how you move around."

Some Pakistanis are frustrated with what they perceive as a lack of Western support for their causes. They complain of receiving little more than lip service from the U.S., which is dependent on Pakistan's aid to turn around the war in neighboring Afghanistan and eliminate Taliban and al-Qaida hideouts on its soil.

We don't matter for anybody," said Marvi Sirmed, a 38-year-old activist.

Islamists in Pakistan have flourished in part because governments have failed to provide for people's needs, such as in education and health care. Islamists fill the gap through their welfare organizations, clinics, mosques, religious seminaries and other networks. The impoverished masses then support their philosophies and political activities.

It doesn't help that those in Pakistan's small, liberal, secular wing tend to be wealthier and more educated than most Pakistanis, a cultural divide that is hard to bridge, said Burzine Waghmar, who teaches about Pakistan at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London.

And so many liberals are increasingly nostalgic for the past, before the 1980s rule of army Gen. Zia ul-Haq. Zia, a fundamentalist Muslim, infused Islam into everything from school textbooks to the legal code - including pushing through harsh blasphemy laws and statutes that treated rape victims as adulterers.

Javed Ali, 70, remembers how bars and cinemas once flourished in Pakistan, and dance parties were advertised in newspapers - admission price, 1 rupee. While visiting Karachi, Ali would go to The Moonlight Club, where dancers would entertain middle and lower middle class visitors.

"Now, that's a dream," says Ali, who lives in the city of Multan in central Pakistan.

Mansoor remembers a more live and let-live society.

"I was a handsome man and had good taste as well," he said. "I had many girlfriends and I would liberally take them to my home and nobody would mind. I would take my girlfriend to the beach and no police would harass us. But later on, the police would ask for marriage papers even if you were with your wife."

Photographer Nazir Khan, 50, of Karachi, recalls how relations between majority Sunni and minority Shiite Muslims were far more cordial.

"I used to offer my Friday prayers in any mosque without consideration to which sect it belonged," Khan said.

The Islamization has accelerated since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.

Although Pakistan's government officially abandoned its alliance with Afghanistan's Taliban regime, the U.S.-led invasion in the neighboring nation was viewed by many as an attack on the Muslim world. Thousands now routinely show up for anti-U.S. rallies.

In cosmopolitan centers such as Karachi, far more women now wear face veils than in years past. Girls as young as 6 or 7 are wearing headscarves, said Roland DeSouza, a Christian who is a partner in an engineering firm. "That stuff you didn't see 10 years ago," he said.

Even in the northwest, which is dominated by ethnic Pashtuns and their conservative culture, life used to be more free. Men would take their wives to the movies, and musicians were routinely hired to perform at weddings. Pakistani Taliban threats and attacks have changed that.

"People were a bit conservative in our province, but still there were opportunities for entertainment, and there was no concept of extremism," said Zahir Shah, 70, a retired teacher.

Secular-minded political parties have aided the change by kowtowing to Islamists to stay in power.

As he struggled to stay in charge in 1977, Pakistani leader Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, the head of the secular and socialist leaning Pakistan People's Party, announced restrictions on alcohol and gambling and closed wine shops and nightclubs.

In recent years, hundreds of minority Shiite Muslims and non-Muslims such as Christians have been killed by Islamist extremists. On May 29, 2010, nearly 100 members of the Ahmadi sect were gunned down in a massacre.

"Muslims and Christians used to live peacefully. We used to attend each other's functions. We used to go to churches. They used to visit us on Eid" - Muslim holidays, recalled Ali Muhammad, 65, a retired banker.

For much of the first half of this country's 63-year existence, the standard farewell was "Khuda-Hafiz" - meaning "God Protect You." Under Zia's rule, a new term gained favor: "Allah-Hafiz." It basically means the same thing, but is more in line with many Islamists' belief that while "Khuda" can mean any god, "Allah," an Arabic word, refers to the true God in Islam.

The drift toward a more extremist Pakistan has occurred with little interference and sometimes quiet support from outside Pakistan.

The U.S., determined to push the Soviets out of Afghanistan in the 1980s, propped up Zia and gave him money to fund the mujaheedeen fighters whose descendants now form the Taliban. U.S.-allied Saudi Arabia also has poured in funds to Pakistan, establishing religious schools, mosques and organizations that teach Wahabism, the Saudis' hardline brand of Islam.

In 2002, President Gen. Pervez Musharraf brought the religious parties into political power in two provinces for the first time in Pakistan's history by making a degree from a religious school equal to that from a university, thereby qualifying more candidates for office.

With the exception of Musharraf's era, Islamist parties have had limited success at the ballot box. But at this rate a religious party could be the ruling party within 10 to 15 years, said I.A. Rahman, a human rights activist.

For now, they have enough street power that the ruling People's Party recently insisted it would not touch the blasphemy laws, and many officials who condemned Taseer's assassination stopped short of criticizing the harsh laws he died for opposing.

Columnist Mosharraf Zaidi said Pakistanis have to be willing to stand up publicly for tolerance - even if it means risking their own lives.

"There will be casualties," he said, "but you will have a civil discourse."

Associated Press writers Sebastian Abbot and Kathy Gannon in Islamabad, Ashraf Khan in Karachi, Khalid Tanveer in Multan and Riaz Khan in Peshawar contributed to this report.


Pakistanis mourn a once tolerant, relaxed nation
 
It isn't the same thing. Some laws are important to enforce and some aren't. Attorney Generals subject to election can make the difference between someone rich and powerful who can bribe his way out of a trial and prosecuting someone poor beggar who needs a dollar just to survive.

The Attorney General, is appointed by the PM on his own discretion, but I guess It wouldn't hurt to forfeit that right to the newly formed Judicial Commission, formed under the 18th amendment, or to a parliamentary committee for law. I am not sure, if this has already been done in the 18th amendment.

My understanding is that the Army and ISI can intervene in civilian trials as they please.

I think you are misinformed here. The civilian courts operate without any influence from the army or the ISI, and the same is true for the military courts, regarding the matters which concern the servicemen.

That doesn't sound like much accountability to me, nor does it to Pakistan's own Prime Ministers: note that one of the Wikileaks cables actually quotes a former PM as claiming that the U.S. appoints the Army Chief!

If, we are to believe the gossip mongers in the Capital city, the whole Pakistani governmental set up is orchestrated by the US to suit its needs. It's better not to debate over assumptions, however, there is no denying that the US does exert its influence in the inter workings of the GoP in some shape or form,which if you ask me, is counter productive, and has never helped.

America's Founding Fathers realized very quickly the need for detailed oversight to answer their questions of how money is spent and how battles were fought so even before independence the Continental Congress appointed Inspector Generals to report back to them. Pakistan's IGs are instead appointed by the Army Chief, so as near as I can tell there is no civilian accountability if, say, the Army or ISI choose to intervene in civilian courts.

Which gives the Army a big incentive to fight against there ever being a truly competent civilian government, wouldn't you say?

The reforms Pakistan needs can't happen all at once, then. You're going to have to increase accountability before you can actually have effective enforcement.

People, specially non-Pakistanis, need to understand that Pakistan is still an infant state, and is constantly compared to countries which have had ample time to modify and rectify their systems over a long period of time. It is simply naive to expect Pakistan to evolve, and come at par with the standard of the US or any other developed country, in a matter of years or even decades. The process is long and it is going to take its sweet time, and the results will come, provided we keep our minds straight and our wills strong.

We have made tremendous strides regardless of all the ills that are associated with us. For Instance, Pakistan succeeded in electing a woman PM in 1988, whereas the US failed to do the same in 2009( I hope I got the election year right). The point is not to malign the US, but to merely point out that regardless of all the doomsday scenarios presented for Pakistan, there is still hope and light at the end of the tunnel.
 
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i totally agree we are still under centurian country but we should not make that an excuse for us loook china instead they did no cry aout being infant but are now above 200 year old countries.......
 
People, specially non-Pakistanis, need to understand that Pakistan is still an infant state, and is constantly compared to countries which have had ample time to modify and rectify there systems over a long period of time. It is simply naive to expect Pakistan to evolve, and come at par with the standard of the US or any other developed country, in a matter of years or even decades...regardless of all the doomsday scenarios presented for Pakistan, there is still hope and light at the end of the tunnel.
Excuses. If you remain inactive, you allow those who are active to shape Pakistan for you. If you keep going as you're going now any liberal or peaceful values you may hold dear to you will be confined to your own home, then vanish entirely to exist as merely a memory in the nation called Pakistan.
 
do you count blasphemy as an attack on u ?

also how would u interpret message of allah that is so vague that anyone can interpret it in his own convenience.
I intend to kill and loot, I can find something in the Quran to justify my action. I intend to rape the wife of my non-Muslim neighbor, I find some verses to back up my intention. Heck, recently a Singapore Muslim found some verses in the Quran to justify incest with his daughters and he managed to convince his wives too. What kind of guidance is this that anyone can find anything based on his intentions?

edit : i would request mods not to ban me here. there is something that needs to be said very urgently here. let me put my opinions here.


what utter BS are you typing!!!! and if you really have any proof please provide it!! otherwise keep your baseless fantasies to yourself! :angry:
 
what utter BS are you typing!!!! and if you really have any proof please provide it!! otherwise keep your baseless fantasies to yourself! :angry:

Ask MbQ to come here and respond to my post. and reply will be given to you then.
 
Coming back to the topic, here is a short video of Javed Ghamdi, a religious scholar from Pakistan, fleeing for his life to Dubai because of the threats posed by the religious fundamentalists.
Here is what he says in an interview recorded shortly after Taseer's murder. A few points:
1) Ghamdi had to flee Pakistan because of an ethical issue: Not only he was being threatened but even his neighbors were under threat because of his residence in Pakistan.
2) The evolution of Islamic discourse, particularly in the sub-continent, is too much based upon 'emotions'. Emotions permeate everything when it comes to Islam. People are openly called to 'love' faith without reasoning. And 'love' can often lead to 'Junoon' (fanaticism). [Marvelous insight about the sub-continental Muslims!]
3) What people are able to say today will be even harder to say tomorrow inside Pakistan.
4) A counter-strategy should be a full-force response of re-education.
5) Today we may be silenced by the mob but tomorrow, as a reaction to the religious mob's brutality, some kind of violent reaction will arise against them.


YouTube - Religious Extremism & Why Ghamdi Left Pakistan
 
YouTube - Salman Taseer Stand On Blasphemy Law Of Pakistan


I don't know if this video has been posted or not if it has been posted, i apologize. From this, i seriously request the educated and sensible people of this forum to open their eyes for a moment and realize what the guy was trying to say and do. If a person says that another guy has said something "Nauzubillah" bad about Hazrat Muhammad (S.A.W) and actually falsely makes up some bad words that the other guy has actually not said. Than who is the Blasphemist? He clearly says that he is not against punishing someone who commits Blasphemy, but the process of filtration should be improved. I would like to see what my friends who still support his killing have to say about this?
 
He clearly says that he is not against punishing someone who commits Blasphemy, but the process of filtration should be improved. I would like to see what my friends who still support his killing have to say about this?


but he is against killing the one who commits Blasphemy. (but i am against his killing, just against his views on Blasphemy law)
 

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