32 Brigadiers promoted to the Rank of Major General in Promotion Board: ISPR

[SQ8]

Just to expand on that point, talking with retired or senior officers in the Army, the WoT has done us some good as well, as far as making the army a pretty effective fighting force. If you compare the current lot with that from 2008 or thereabouts, the difference is day and night...and it even shows in daily affairs. Just look at an NCO manning a naka or a post in a cantt, their whole posture is different. Tactics and strategies have evolved, the mindeset has changed, authority in command has changed, and much more. Other militaries are very much inexperienced in this regard. I was reading an article the other day, and the conclusion was that Western militaries rely heavily on technological support and air superiority, which means their foot soldier is not as refined. I'll leave the conclusion to the jury.

But another interesting aspect of the current officer lot is the Instagram 'Laftain'. Every new 2nd Lt or PMA cadet seems more interested in instagram and taking pictures rather than doing their actual job. Just ask any girl these days who has an IG profile or a Twitter, and she'll tell you a tale of a guy coming into her DM's and flexing "Hi, 2nd Lt XYZ in Armored Corps, can I take you for a coffee".

The instagram laftains have often gotten into trouble as well because of these antics.

I wouldn’t say that their foot soldier isn’t refined but that the difference in command and unit culture impacts them as well.
I have seen regular US military units with discipline and skills nearing that of SOCOM(and they support them in the field) and I have seen National Guard units who load machine guns the opposite way and wonder why it wont fire.

 

[Jango]

I wouldn’t say that their foot soldier isn’t refined but that the difference in command and unit culture impacts them as well.
I have seen regular US military units with discipline and skills nearing that of SOCOM(and they support them in the field) and I have seen National Guard units who load machine guns the opposite way and wonder why it wont fire.

Agreed. Generalization is always pretty dangerous

 

[ProudPak]

How many made it due to time served and how many made it due to merit ans how many will serve Pakistan?

 

[SQ8]

Agreed. Generalization is always pretty dangerous

It is but keep in mind the overall environment and culture plays an important role in shaping everything.
So regardless of the lack of skill set - the national guard trooper has more access to not just improving his skills but also independent leadership qualities versus the Pakistani personnel. So while no two are equal - their environment and culture is and that at the end that will play a major part.

 

[Goenitz]

@Jango @SQ8 @waz

I like the concept of DHA but not on illegal land. Else, it generate good vibes and thought to people who live or visit there. It is more like monkeys sees monkey do. We tend to replicate the model in our own locality.

Back then, there was a concept of 'model thanna'. Where people can easily register their FIR. Such as Japanese Koban . These are more like community centre than police station. It connects people to police, they talk, eat and laugh together. So, it bridges the gap and create harmony and connection between them.

No monkey see monkey do part. Any quality locality or trend raise the standard of society. If it is coupled with good rules/law, community centres, schools etc then people live that experience. It is well known in education circle that 'Students learn what they do in the class, even if are forced to do that". Simple meaning is that a learner learn by practising, either by will or force. Therefore, in the end these pockets will propagate good to the surroundings. My only complaint is that they should build more higher education institutes. Bring faculty from wherever possible. One NUST is not enough. In a nutshell good comes out of good. So if land acquisition is transparent, then all is well.

 

[Tomcats]

Just to expand on that point, talking with retired or senior officers in the Army, the WoT has done us some good as well, as far as making the army a pretty effective fighting force. If you compare the current lot with that from 2008 or thereabouts, the difference is day and night...and it even shows in daily affairs. Just look at an NCO manning a naka or a post in a cantt, their whole posture is different. Tactics and strategies have evolved, the mindeset has changed, authority in command has changed, and much more. Other militaries are very much inexperienced in this regard. I was reading an article the other day, and the conclusion was that Western militaries rely heavily on technological support and air superiority, which means their foot soldier is not as refined. I'll leave the conclusion to the jury.

But another interesting aspect of the current officer lot is the Instagram 'Laftain'. Every new 2nd Lt or PMA cadet seems more interested in instagram and taking pictures rather than doing their actual job. Just ask any girl these days who has an IG profile or a Twitter, and she'll tell you a tale of a guy coming into her DM's and flexing "Hi, 2nd Lt XYZ in Armored Corps, can I take you for a coffee".

The instagram laftains have often gotten into trouble as well because of these antics.

Yeah I mean this really ties into battlefield experience , you can see the difference in the people who have had bullets whizz by them and those who have not, such experience is especially important in prolonged combat. For example on the Eastern front in World War 2, I remember reading on the Battle of Berlin and the important Seelow Heights area which would bear the brunt of the Soviet onslaught, if memory serves me right General Heinrici when planning for the defense skillfully placed his units with combat experience in mind. Often the less experienced new units would melt like butter if left to fend for itself, the experienced units help augment this and help act as an anchor for them.

Also yeah, I've seen the photo posting too, mostly from those who are from Cadet colleges and who think of joining the military. But I have faith in the selection process, hopefully such people who join for clout or whatever are separated out.

 

[SQ8]

@Jango @SQ8 @waz

I like the concept of DHA but not on illegal land. Else, it generate good vibes and thought to people who live or visit there. It is more like monkeys sees monkey do. We tend to replicate the model in our own locality.

Back then, there was a concept of 'model thanna'. Where people can easily register their FIR. Such as Japanese Koban . These are more like community centre than police station. It connects people to police, they talk, eat and laugh together. So, it bridges the gap and create harmony and connection between them.

No monkey see monkey do part. Any quality locality or trend raise the standard of society. If it is coupled with good rules/law, community centres, schools etc then people live that experience. It is well known in education circle that 'Students learn what they do in the class, even if are forced to do that". Simple meaning is that a learner learn by practising, either by will or force. Therefore, in the end these pockets will propagate good to the surroundings. My only complaint is that they should build more higher education institutes. Bring faculty from wherever possible. One NUST is not enough. In a nutshell good comes out of good. So if land acquisition is transparent, then all is well.

The problem with DHA or any other military inc. business is that is plagues the honesty and focus of military officers. By providing the ability to engage in real estate from the get go and the prospect of guaranteed employment after retirement you set up the self interest of the officers to take precedence over duty.

It also creates bubbles by creating this middle-elite gentry within urban environments instead of giving a fair playground to what is prime land. Instead of the DHA becoming a fair revenue generating branch it becomes a oligarchy structure where military personnel get preferred land at preferred rates. A better model is what the US has - let housing be private but offer easier loan and financing terms to veterans for housing.
Oddly, that already exists for military personnel through the different financial institutions run by military inc. so then the benefits outweigh the global standards

 

[Goenitz]

The problem with DHA or any other military inc. business is that is plagues the honesty and focus of military officers. By providing the ability to engage in real estate from the get go and the prospect of guaranteed employment after retirement you set up the self interest of the officers to take precedence over duty.

It also creates bubbles by creating this middle-elite gentry within urban environments instead of giving a fair playground to what is prime land. Instead of the DHA becoming a fair revenue generating branch it becomes a oligarchy structure where military personnel get preferred land at preferred rates. A better model is what the US has - let housing be private but offer easier loan and financing terms to veterans for housing.
Oddly, that already exists for military personnel through the different financial institutions run by military inc. so then the benefits outweigh the global standards

1. Sure.. that is the downside but it brings a benefit that officers are not in depression during service that they need housing after retirement.
2. That is true even for Bahria, Model Town etc. I agree that localities like these have gates, passes in extreme cases which create segregation. The parity here is also extreme though west has Beverly and Mayfair.

 

[Pakistan Ka Beta]

@waz @LeGenD n others Sir kindly block some of these at least on this thread .

 

[SQ8]

1. Sure.. that is the downside but it brings a benefit that officers are not in depression during service that they need housing after retirement.
2. That is true even for Bahria, Model Town etc. I agree that localities like these have gates, passes in extreme cases which create segregation. The parity here is also extreme though west has Beverly and Mayfair.

1)The US military has this financing facility(among many other veterans benefits) for both officers and enlisted - there isn’t depression as such.
More importantly, having a single house vs houses and land is different.
A Brigadier retiring will have a house in DHA Lahore, land in DHA islamabad and agricultural land to his name as well. Clearly he wont have anything to be depressed about other than no more salutes everywhere.

The housing if must be given should only be allocated at time of retirement and not at every promotion or rank.

2) Gentrification is a process everywhere but that doesn’t mean ability to manipulate the market because of the profession.

 

[Pakistan Ka Beta]

1)The US military has this financing facility(among many other veterans benefits) for both officers and enlisted - there isn’t depression as such.
More importantly, having a single house vs houses and land is different.
A Brigadier retiring will have a house in DHA Lahore, land in DHA islamabad and agricultural land to his name as well. Clearly he wont have anything to be depressed about other than no more salutes everywhere.

The housing if must be given should only be allocated at time of retirement and not at every promotion or rank.

2) Gentrification is a process everywhere but that doesn’t mean ability to manipulate the market because of the profession.

@Goenitz kindly both of u stick to the topic or open a thread on DHA @waz @LeGenD

 

[SQ8]

@Goenitz kindly both of u stick to the topic or open a thread on DHA @waz @LeGenD

Yes - it is off topic since the question was originally whether these promotions were warranted or not which is a long debate.
There are multiple threads on DHA already.

Thank you for being the only thekedar of Pakistan

 

[Goenitz]

@Goenitz kindly both of u stick to the topic or open a thread on DHA @waz @LeGenD

sure.. but there were some already posts about DHA in the thread. I just argued it is not that bad.

 

[Big Tank]

That is not entirely true as it all subjective and depends upon the background, education and exposure of the Pakistani LT and conversely the US NCo as well. However , the US NCO has greater opportunities to get exposure and educate themselves versus the LT due to a variety of factors that includes multi-dimensional cross branch training and overseas deployments.

However, that is a function of both budget and some culture otherwise there is nothing that would prevent a Pakistani LT from being as or more independent and astute in their task than even a US Lt.

Keep in mind, new west point graduates are actually quite green in the field and take more time to acclimate versus the Pakistani counterparts who have more “real life” experience due to the culture and environment.

So it’s not all a lopsided story - what’s key is culture. In the US a Major or lt Colonel is considered a senior officer by even civilians and generally a rare sight while in Pakistan “har pathar ke neechay aik Major nikal raha hota hai”


That culture has been changed quite a bit since Batmans are now the monetary responsibility of officers themselves much like the entire country.

I'm not talking about the training but culture. PA has great training opportunities for both the NCOs and COs but the culture that we've obtained from the Britons keeps us behind.

 

[Solidify]

FYI : India just recruited 400,000 new Jawans in their Army, retired old 400,000 Army employees in an instant. Something is very dangerous cropping up by Modi. Yesterday Indian establishment said Pak administered Kashmir belongs to India?