Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[randomradio]

The reason I bring it up, is because PAF is buying second hand mirages and therefore plans to keep at least a portion of the fleet going. The need for a dedicated strike fighter/bomber is still there, and while used F-16s are ideal, they would be prioritized for the A2A role when and if they became available. The JF-17 would be great but it flys slower and has a lower weapons load.

The PAF has the mirage rebuild factory and Atar engine overhaul facility at Kamra. It may turn out they only upgrade a smaller portion of the fleet, as we did with the Rose Mirages, but we need the capability and need to cover it with our limited budget.

If the PAF can afford it, re-engineing the planes with the Rd-93/WS-13 would be better, but we can save money and time just upgrading the components of the Atar to the Super Atar standard. If we carry out these upgrades and have at least 3 squadrons available in the next 3-5 years, and they serve until 2035, then we will have had modern capabilities and can invest that money in other projects like Project AZM, without sacrificing capability.

3 Squadrons would be decent enough if you consider the IAF trusts its Mirage 2000s for the Strike role and they operate the same number: 3 Squadrons of Mirages.

P.S. A lot of the components for the upgrade will be those used in the JF-17 program. We will no longer have to buy French weapons. When these air frames are no longer flight-worthy their components (radar, EW equipement, comms, etc.) can be swapped into another second hand Mirage, and ultimately as spares for the JF-17s.

About 45-50 Mirage Vs could be pushed to 2035. That will give you 3 squadrons.

 

[MastanKhan]

It is all about ROI. Right now, there is no appetite to keep Mirages affloat but it is from what i gather lack of funds overall but still there is no credible option for SOW carriers; only exception being Jh-7 which we keep on being scoffed at. While ROSE added better capabilities it did not address the core airframe/engine challenges.

Hi,

The americans are proving again that the old relic---the B52 is good as new one more time---with capabilities no one ever dreamt of---.

Sometimes the utility of the weapon is not what it can do or fit in---but it is about the effect it has upon the enemy that counts the most---like the Starfighter F104---.

Paf's mentality is buried deep in the Single Engine mindset---it needs to pull itself out of that frame of mind and need to find a heavy strike aircraft rather than depending on light TOY HAULERS---.

Paf is not known to think ahead of time about the problems that it would face---.

It has always been a day late and a dollar short---. It does recover somewhat from its blunders---because the enemy is equally incompetent---.

If it was not made a match made in heavens / hell---pakistan/india---pakistan would have been in deeper sh-it---.

 

[BATMAN]

It may turn out they only upgrade a smaller portion of the fleet, as we did with the Rose Mirages

If you are talking about Egyptian mirages, than those are already at higher upgrade level than any of ROSE.
Those who are not, will be cannibalized.

 

[ziaulislam]

The oldest Egyptian Mirage V is from 1975 and the newest from 1983. The rest of the Mirage III/V fleet in PAF was built in the 70s. So the newest aircraft is already more than 35 years old, whereas a large chunk of the fleet is already more than 45 years old. The oldest is, I believe, 52 years old now.

Last I heard, the entire fleet is to be phased out between 2025 and 2030. With such a small window, an upgrade is not feasible. You might be able to manage if you get at least 2 squadrons that were built post 80s though, which may survive up to 2035, but the cost of operating such a small fleet could make it unrealistic.

It increasingly looks like your best hope would be to absorb more second hand F-16s, and of course, the JF-17.

It depends upon flying hours..alot of those had enough airframe hours because they were retired early (build in 1970s retired in 1980s and than picke d up by PAF in early 2000s) some were in kits,(libyain ones)

Pac strips the air frame completely and rebuilds them..so a smaller fleet can easily be pushed to 2030 ..i am certain PAF will keep 3-4 sq till 2030. Unless it finds a replacement earlier

 

[baqai]

I wouldn't discard Mirages on age, F-16 is old platform and so is A-10, if there is life in the airframe and we can keep it upto date with latest avionics we should do it until and unless we are sufficient enough to replace it with JF-17 or some other platform, it's about ROI how much we are getting in return for what we are spending

 

[ziaulislam]

With this many anti Armour bombs per Mirage, we wont need Nar for Armoured brigades i guess?

If u can maintain aerial denial against IAF ..than yes.. Asingle run of mirage 5s with cluster bombs can decimate an armoured brigade

 

[denel]

Hi,

The americans are proving again that the old relic---the B52 is good as new one more time---with capabilities no one ever dreamt of---.

Sometimes the utility of the weapon is not what it can do or fit in---but it is about the effect it has upon the enemy that counts the most---like the Starfighter F104---.

Paf's mentality is buried deep in the Single Engine mindset---it needs to pull itself out of that frame of mind and need to find a heavy strike aircraft rather than depending on light TOY HAULERS---.

Paf is not known to think ahead of time about the problems that it would face---.

It has always been a day late and a dollar short---. It does recover somewhat from its blunders---because the enemy is equally incompetent---.

If it was not made a match made in heavens / hell---pakistan/india---pakistan would have been in deeper sh-it---.

Yes, correct. mindset is not strategic or having independent institutions to do the development.

 

[MastanKhan]

Yes, correct. mindset is not strategic or having independent institutions to do the development.

Hi,

I would guarantee that under fear of a threat of court martial and termination under disgrace---the force will find the JH7A worthy----and make it worthy of an examplary task---.

 

[denel]

Hi,

I would guarantee that under fear of a threat of court martial and termination under disgrace---the force will find the JH7A worthy----and make it worthy of an examplary task---.

Absolutely, this is the perfect platform for strategic strike - equivalent of Mirage IV; but both of us get flak for even mentioning it. It is silly - they rather get M3 with engines which are end of life to continue on - with Cheetah we dumped the engine and went in with 9k engine - a huge improvement. When we were getting rid of the Cheetah fleet, they did not even bother to buy them - they rather buy Egyptian junk.

 

[gangsta_rap]

they rather buy Egyptian junk.

You can't go ahead and simply dismiss SAGEM's work on these mirages

 

[denel]

You can't go ahead and simply dismiss SAGEM's work on these mirages

You cannot compare Cheetah full house capabilities vs patched up SAGEM's work on what is on Egyptian; one is a completely new platform vs an upgrade of sorts. Please read up on details for Cheetah.

 

[randomradio]

It depends upon flying hours..alot of those had enough airframe hours because they were retired early (build in 1970s retired in 1980s and than picke d up by PAF in early 2000s) some were in kits,(libyain ones)

The problem is the very old date of construction, dating all the way back to the 60s, late 70s and early 80s. And it's been nearly 20 years since the 2000s now, or 40+ years from the last date of construction.

Take our Jaguars for example, we bought a bunch of them early on, which were delivered until the late 80s. And then we continued buying more Jaguars all way until later 2000s. And we plan to operate them into the 2040s. Meaning about 80 Jaguars were inducted after the 90s and are less than 30 years old.

Operating M Vs until 2030 is feasible, but beyond that's gonna be questionable.

 

[jupiter2007]

Hi,

I would guarantee that under fear of a threat of court martial and termination under disgrace---the force will find the JH7A worthy----and make it worthy of an examplary task---.

OMG, why don’t you give it a rest, we will never get JH-7A. Unless Chinese redesign it like below picture.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

The americans are proving again that the old relic---the B52 is good as new one more time---with capabilities no one ever dreamt of---.

Sometimes the utility of the weapon is not what it can do or fit in---but it is about the effect it has upon the enemy that counts the most---like the Starfighter F104---.

Paf's mentality is buried deep in the Single Engine mindset---it needs to pull itself out of that frame of mind and need to find a heavy strike aircraft rather than depending on light TOY HAULERS---.

Paf is not known to think ahead of time about the problems that it would face---.

It has always been a day late and a dollar short---. It does recover somewhat from its blunders---because the enemy is equally incompetent---.

If it was not made a match made in heavens / hell---pakistan/india---pakistan would have been in deeper sh-it---.

Considering the budget crunch, do you still believe the JH-7A is the best option for the PAF, or should it try to go for something else? The PAF did fly with it in many exercises.

Would trying to convince the Saudis to sell their Tornados (at a reasonable price) be a better option? They operate 81 Tornados IDS (Strike variant) and buying the whole lot with infrastructure, spares, and munitions should offer a formidable strike platform that can serve for up to another two decades. The tornado has the legs for relatively long range naval strike as well as deep strike into enemy territory; where we can launch PGMs into denied air space guarded by modern air defenses. The Tornados would also keep Pakistan's Fleet diversified in terms of suppliers; considering the new Leonardo office being setup in Islamabad and our generally decent relations with the UK, the Saudi Clout could allow us to buy a lot of spares and advanced munitions before any new hostiles and potential halt to supplies.

The Saudis plan to retire their Tornados in 2020 and will probably sell them back to the UK as they did with their ADV (Air Defense Version) Tornados back in 2007. The IDS planes were upgraded in 2006 to the GR4 Standard and are currently seeing action over Yemen. If Pakistan can convince the Saudi to sell or gift the Tornados to Pakistan (MBS did say to consider him the Ambassador of Pakistan to Saudi Arabia), its worth a try to ask, and if Pakistan could get these 81 planes, it would solve most of the strike requirement in one sweep. We could retire 5 squadrons worth of mirages on a pure numbers basis, or the entire mirage fleet on a tonnage carried basis. The Tornados would allow the PAF to equally match the Rafale in Strike capabilities. Remember the Tornados were upgraded to the GR4 standard, which is an upgrade that keeps in mind the S-300 type threats. Operating with the JF-17 Block III with advanced EW equipment, F-16s, and possibly J-10CE should be a formidable force for the IAF to contend with.

JH-7 was evaluated and found to be lacking in terms of a RoI.
The Mirages are extremely customizable after the JF-17 and so far the only ones qualified for Raptor carriage.

In what way were the JH-7A found to be lacking? Would the Saudi Tornados be a better option if the PAF can acquire them? (Saudis plan to retire them in 2020 and they operate 81 strike variant Tornados upgraded approximately 10 years ago)

 

[araz]

JH-7 was evaluated and found to be lacking in terms of a RoI.
The Mirages are extremely customizable after the JF-17 and so far the only ones qualified for Raptor carriage.

Oscar.
Do you have any info on why PAF did not go down the upgraded Mirage route even in early 2000s when it was a suitable option given dearth of suitable platforms that could be procured?
A