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Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

But now there are symbols that PAF is moving towards about 70 F-60/J-31s rather than J-10BS which is quite good but my opinion would be to license produced at PAC or even join the program to manufacture 100 F-60s from 2017-2022...
 
Will PAF skip J10b for serious? I thought J10b is customized at PAF improvement request.
 
And your official claim for all the above.
???????????????????????? We dont have a DRDO here, unfortunately from information propoganda perspective, who would even announce that what kind of omelette they had in morning's breakfast.
 
PAF wont skip J10, Gen Kiyani was requesting the russians for AF31F Engines:flame: for the same....

Its not the AL31F issue its financial problem, genius FAG. :tdown:
We got RD-93 superior to RD-33 of Indian Mig fleet and now we will get RD-93MA equivalent to RD-33Mk of IN Mig-Ks and you are saying that its because of India we are not getting J-10b or AL-31F ... Pure S *** .
 
Hi,

I have been trying to teach you kids for 6 years now how to read the 'tea leaves'---but you kids are so thick headed---it is beyond belief---.

It is an old american habbit to creat a monster out of a mole hill----remember iraq gulf wars 1 and 2---. If you cannot---the do you remember seeing the interview of the chinese general talking about the issues with J10's electronics in comparison to the americans---that was just a couple of years ago----so what has happened in that time period that the chinese had made such a leap in technology that has changed the minds of the world---nothing-----none---zilch---nada---.

You got to understand by now----when western media starts talking about the chinese weapons systems---you need to understand that they are fulfilling the agenda of american defence industry.

There is a news out in today's jang news paper---85% pakistanis have never been to a library---and most who go there---go to read the news paper---man said that they have no libraries in their cities---.

These news media experts are trying to puff up the chinese dragon to make it believe in what it is not---.

You fools---china does not have a single fighter jet engine that could compete with the engine built and designed in the 1970 for F16 or the F 15 fighter aircrafts----.

It does not even have anything to compete with the SR71 engine built and designed in the early 60's----how far is the u s ahead of the world----no nation can come close and compete with some the the u s's 60 technology of this aircraft---.

I feel pain for you my young children---for your ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate and the tragedy that befalls the motherland----no one to tell you the truth.

The pin pricks are meant to get your attention----and make you to learn with an open mnind to see what is on the other side---but tragicaly you kids revert back to what has been ingrained deep in your psyches---don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----. Change that mindset and there will be a new begining.

Just being patronising and calling everyone 'children' and 'kids' all the time doesn't some how make you a superior being. As usual your logic or lack of it is LOL funny. In the same post - and again I quote you say 'don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----. Change that mindset and there will be a new begining' and yet you are the one telling us to egnore and not listen to all the independant experts who are putting the latest Chinese fighters on par with U.S. products. Hows about practising what you preach? All of the off topic nonesense you come out with about 'ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate' applies to you perfectly - your own posts are ample proof of this.

Your view that western aviation experts are on the U.S. payroll and bulling up the J10B as part of some big US agenda is not worth a response.
 
Just being patronising and calling everyone 'children' and 'kids' all the time doesn't some how make you a superior being. As usual your logic or lack of it is LOL funny. In the same post - and again I quote you say 'don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----. Change that mindset and there will be a new begining' and yet you are the one telling us to egnore and not listen to all the independant experts who are putting the latest Chinese fighters on par with U.S. products. Hows about practising what you preach? All of the off topic nonesense you come out with about 'ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate' applies to you perfectly - your own posts are ample proof of this.

Your view that western aviation experts are on the U.S. payroll and bulling up the J10B as part of some big US agenda is not worth a response.
Dude what Mastan sir is saying and what you are not understanding here is that its a common practice used by most of the defence companies to create panic in Govt establishment so that they can get more funds for their products....and as faar as these so called independent experts are concern then believe me most of them get their pay check from these defence companies.....
 
Is there a possibility of seeing a J-10C ? *Perhaps post 2020*

And on that note how far do the inherent limitations of the J-10 design allow for to be upgraded too ? Which is to say till how far can it be upgraded with new blocks coming up before the initial design doesn't allow for a further upgrade & one needs to go back to the drawing board to make changes that may need to be catered to be designing a completely new aircraft ?
@TAC : The same question from you, mate, if you will ! :tup:

Even with designs with limited potential such as the F-7 and A-5 China continued to introduce ingenius improvements until very recently. So with the J-10B which has bags of potential you can be sure to expect a lot more to come. Indigenous engine – possibly with thrust vector, conformal fuel tanks, increasingly advanced avionics / self protection suites and weapons can be expected. As a design it is second only to the 5th gen types currently under developmemt. To answer the question on when you would have to go back to drawing board – when you feel the need to have a fighter that is stealth as a design driver – and China is already doing this with its 5TH Gen developments.
 
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???????????????????????? We dont have a DRDO here, unfortunately from information propoganda perspective, who would even announce that what kind of omelette they had in morning's breakfast.

Dude there lies the problem. When everything has been kept classified, how come you came know that much about JF-17 or J-10 either. It is only that some some trolling member in the forum has mentioned something and other just followed it blindly.

There were many who claimed many of the Su-30mki technology has find it's place in the LCA but I knew that it is untrue or atleast I didn't blindly accept their claim. Luckily for me other than RCS and latest IRST most of the other information has been officially declared in case of LCA.

So start thinking rationally as I have in my career of 2 years association with this type of defence forum.And in my 3 months experience with PDF I have found this type of trolling the most here in PDF.
 
The counter-MMRCA strategy of PAF
Visits 561

By Najam Khan
February 24, 2012
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has finalised the long-awaited deal of 126 Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) with Dassault, a leading aviation industry of France. Dassault will deliver 126 Rafale MMRCA to India in the next decades. The first batch of 18 aircraft will be delivered from France, while the remaining ones will be assembled in India. The $11bn (£7bn) contract is the biggest ever procurement made by the IAF. The Rafale Multirole fighter/bomber aircraft can participate in air, ground and sea operations in both short and medium ranges. In an additional multi-billion weapons package for these 126 aircraft, India will buy air-to-air and air-to-ground Precision Guided Munitions (PGM) and Joint Stand Off Weapons (JSOW). With a top speed of Mach 1.8, service ceiling of 50,000 feet and a range of 3,700km, it is no doubt a potent weapon for IAF and a threat to both China and Pakistan.

India took around five years to decide the best bidder as a mainstay aircraft for its air force. During these years, the IAF conducted flight trial of Mig-35, F-16, F-18, JAS-39, Eurofighter and Rafale on different locations in India. The purpose was to look out for the lowest bidder and the most favourable combat aircraft, which will replace the aging Mig-21fleet. As India moved forward in search of MMRCA platform, Pakistan aimed to counter India’s plans by reassessing its military doctrines of airpower and assessed the shortcomings.

India’s conventional arms build-up threatens Pakistan. The MMRCA deal is especially threatening for Pakistan because it augments India’s airpower and worsens the conventional arms asymmetry between the two arch-rivals. To counter India’s increasing airpower, the PAF has followed a multi-pronged strategy which involves: replacing its aging fleet of fighter aircraft; modernizing its existing fleet; procurement of force multipliers like Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) systems and Multirole Tanker Transport (MRTT) aircraft; induction of F-16C/D Block52 aircraft; and, rapid indigenous production of JF-17 Thunder. The procurement of FC-20/J-10B Multirole combat aircraft from China is a long term solution to IAF’s increasing airpower. Meanwhile, PAF is also enhancing skills of its pilots and aircrew by regularly participating in national and multinational exercises.

A decade ago, when India initiated the MMRCA project, the PAF operated 250-300 combat aircraft including Chinese Origin A-5 for ground support, F-7P/PG for air superiority role, French-built Mirages for surface attack/naval support and night strike role and F-16 A/B tasked with multirole operations. The Cold War era airframes, A-5, F-7 and Mirage fleet were reaching the end of their service, albeit they were overhauled at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra. The immediate solution at that time was to invest in the JF-17 Thunder project. JF-17 is believed to be the replacement of A-5, F-7 and Mirage fleet of PAF. Thus far, the situation was such that India was looking out to the skies while Pakistan was facing problems even in maintaining operational readiness of its air force.

JF-17 Thunder is one of the key solutions to PAF’s problems as it provides superb air-to-air and air-to-ground weapon carrying capability at an affordable cost. Pakistan has plans to induct 150 JF-17 Thunder till 2020. The first batch of 50 JF-17s named as Block-I will finish delivery by mid-2012. Block-II of 50 JF-17s with better avionics and aerial refuelling probe will be delivered by 2016. The third batch of 50 JF-17s with state-of-the-art avionics, electronic warfare and a wide array of weaponry will be delivered till 2020. The first two batches of JF-17 were meant to be well-timed and well-equipped replacement aircraft for A-5, F-7P and Mirage fleet. The third batch will include the Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW) capability, Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) capability, Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST) capability and more use of composites to reduce the radar echo. No doubt, the third batch of JF-17 will be a punch to the enemy!

Pakistan also opted for acquisition of four Saab-2000 AEW&C systems from Sweden in 2007 and procurement of four IL-78 MRTT aircraft from Ukraine. Both of these projects were scheduled to finish in late 2011/early 2012. The need of an AEW&C was strongly felt by PAF ever since Kargil War in 1999. Such aircraft are a necessary requirement in any modern day airpower campaign. The presence of an AEW&C system increases the situational awareness of the fighter and bomber aircraft and yields better results in any campaign. The procurement of IL-78 MRTT aircraft was to allow Mirage and JF-17 to carry out deep strike missions inside the enemy territory and increase loiter time of these aircraft during Combat Air Patrol (CAP) missions. Furthermore, it enhances the strategic airlift capability of PAF. IL-78 strategic tanker and transport aircraft can also be used to carry large amount of fuel, ration and equipment to remote military bases.

The PAF also modernized its air defence structure by acquisition of TPS-77 High Level Radar from U.S. It enhanced its Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities with purchase of Falco Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) from Italy. It improved its F-16 fleet with purchase of 14 F-16A/B Block-15 aircraft as Excess Defence Article (EDA) from U.S. The Command, Control, Computers, Communication and Intelligence (C4I) Systems were also enhanced by upgrading the air force bases inter-communication network.

The PAF also placed an order for acquisition of 18 F-16 C/D Block52 aircraft from Lockheed Martin worth $1.5 billion and $650 Million worth air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons. The quantum leap achieved in this deal was the purchase of 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) and 200 AIM-9M Sidewinder Short-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (SRAAM), which was necessary to maintain the air superiority. This was the first time that PAF has been given the opportunity to purchase AIM-120 Beyond Visual Range (BVR) weapons. In a separate $1.5 billion worth contract, the PAF placed an order for up-gradation of 45 F-16 A/B fleet to Mid Life Upgrade (MLU) standard. This contract meant extension of service life of these aircraft for another two decades. The first batch of these MLU F-16s will be handed over to PAF in early February 2012.

During the past five year period PAF has participated in various multinational exercises to assess the training standards and skills of Pakistani pilots and crew. Table 1 shows the name, location and year of these exercises:

Exercises Location Year

Anatolian Eagle Turkey 2006, 2007, 2008,

2009, 2009

Advance Tactical Leadership Course UAE 2006 and 2011

Al-Saqoor Saudi Arabia 2006 and 2011

Brightstar Egypt 2009

Iron Eagle UAE 2009

Falcon Air Meet Jordan 2010

Red Flag United States 2010-4

Green Flag United States 2010-9

Indus Viper Pakistan 2008

Falcon Talon Pakistan 2005 and 2009

Saffron Bandit Pakistan 2009

High Mark Pakistan 2005 and 2010

Shaheen-I Pakistan 2011


Table 1: Exercises in which PAF participated since 2005.
In all these exercises, the PAF pilots have flown with the world’s highly advanced combat aircraft which include USAF’s F-15 & F-22, French Air Force’s Rafale, Italian Air Force’s Eurofighter-2000, UAEAF F-16 Block60 and Mirage-2000-9, RSAF F-15C, PLAAF Su-27SK and various blocks of F-16 from TUAF, RJAF and USAF. Apart from interaction with military aviation professionals, these exercises gave the PAF an opportunity to learn from the experience of other fighting forces.

Exercise High Mark is the biggest national exercise conducted every five years to assess the operational readiness of PAF. In High Mark 2010, the PAF not only demonstrated its network-centric capabilities, but also conducted Beyond Visual Range (BVR) and Within Visual Range (WVR) air combat missions, Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR), close support, air-to-air refuelling and strategic airlift missions.

In late 2010, Pakistan acquired Electronic Warfare Tactical Training Range (EWTTR) from Turkey. This range located 31 miles (50kms) from Mushaf Airbase, Sargodha was made operational in early 2011. It has been used to monitor various fighter squadrons competing against each other in a simulated electronic warfare combat. This range provides much electronic warfare combat, anti-radar and radar-avoiding techniques to the pilots. Another range named Air Combat Manoeuvring Instrumentation (ACMI) is also present at Sargodha, where pilots learn the lessons of modern day air combat and fly against aggressor units of Combat Commanders School (CCS). Both of these ranges complement each other by providing simulated air combat and electronic warfare training platform to pilots.

While the prices of fighter aircraft and necessary equipment from the West were going sky high, the only solution for PAF was to hold the Chinese helping hand. After analysing JS-39 Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter, the PAF decided to pick the Chinese card by going for J-10 Vanguard Multirole aircraft. The initial plan was to buy 36 J-10A and equip fighter squadrons as early as possible. As India delayed the results of MMRCA, the PAF had no choice but to allow its adversary to decide first. During these years, Chengdu developed much proficient version of J-10 named J-10B. J-10B (named FC-20 for PAF) will provide deep strike capability, greater range and air combat capabilities to PAF. The aircraft will be equipped with IRST, modern day BVRs, Precision Guided Munitions (PGM), Anti-Shipping Missile (ASM) and Anti-Radar Missiles (ARM). Induction of up to 50 FC-20 will complement the JF-17, F-7PG, F-16 MLU and F-16 Block52 fleet. The deployment of IL-78 Airborne Aerial Refuelling (AAR) platform will enhance range and strike radius of both JF-17 and FC-20 aircraft.

The counter MMRCA strategy of PAF also includes up-gradation of network centric capabilities by the procurement of ZDK-03 and Saab-2000 AEW&C systems. One out of four ZDK-03 is already delivered to PAF while the other will be received in mid-2012. Three out of four Saab-2000 AEW&C are in service with PAF, the fourth and the last one will be received this year. These two types of AWACS will provide strategic edge to both Western and Chinese origin aircraft in PAF’s inventory.

Rafale will be the mainstay of IAF in future. To deny the Indian air superiority in the region, PAF has to remain vigilant and continue with its diligent efforts for impregnable defence of the country.

Looking at the aforementioned procurement and squadrons re-equipment plans it is evident that PAF has invested great time and effort in implementing the counter-MMRCA strategy. This will make an efficient and hard hitting air force…an air force that will augment the defence of Pakistan and make PAF second to none among the world’s best fighting forces
 
Even with designs with limited potential such as the F-7 and A-5 China continued to introduce ingenius improvements until very recently. So with the J-10B which has bags of potential you can be sure to expect a lot more to come. Indigenous engine – possibly with thrust vector, conformal fuel tanks, increasingly advanced avionics / self protection suites and weapons can be expected. As a design it is second only to the 5th gen types currently under developmemt. To answer the question on when you would have to go back to drawing board – when you feel the need to have a fighter that is stealth as a design driver – and China is already doing this with its 5TH Gen developments.

Dude I ask this because I read Pshamim's post in the JF-17 thread :

You may call me crazy for dragging the Thunder in to PLA Navy carrier. Briefly,one of the simmering issue at present is how far J-10 can be improved and upgraded. J-10 is reaching a point where further upgrades may not be possible even though it is a great aircraft. JF-17 is not only inexpensive but has a lot of room to grow. A lot of talks and rumors are circulating, not necessarily that they are all true but they point to ideas that may or could be incorporated. I may state a few of them:

1. The single tall vertical tail may make way for twin tail to make it more stealthy. Also as Chinese have not designed and produced a twin tail yet, there seems to be a desire by the Chinese to introduce their own designed twin tail and introdece it for FC-1/JF-17
2. Twin tail will also reduce the weight
3.Change the circular rcs to diamond shaped cross section to improve stealthiness.
5. Keep the iconic DSI but make modify it due to changes in the nose
6. Increase the rounded edges on the wing. This will not only enable Thunder to perform better at low speed and at low altitude flying
This will also increase the wing tank capacity and increase range
7.Change the spine design and raise the cockpit for a better flight vision
8.Increase the take off weight.


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...ole-fighter-thread-4-a-452.html#ixzz2H1TShYIb
 
Its not the AL31F issue its financial problem, genius FAG. :tdown:
We got RD-93 superior to RD-33 of Indian Mig fleet and now we will get RD-93MA equivalent to RD-33Mk of IN Mig-Ks and you are saying that its because of India we are not getting J-10b or AL-31F ... Pure S *** .

dummy, India got rd33 for mig29's in 80's.... i never said that India is blocking any sales, it's just that your general pasted a huge slap the face of your chinese brethren vis-a-vis WS10 engines for j10's.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/206925-moscow-warms-up-islamabad.html
 
dummy, India got rd33 for mig29's in 80's.... i never said that India is blocking any sales, it's just that your general pasted a huge slap the face of your chinese brethren vis-a-vis WS10 engines for j10's.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/206925-moscow-warms-up-islamabad.html

Because the general has been told that the life cycle reliability of Chinese engines has still not reached an acceptable level for the PAF. No slap was involved.
 
Because the general has been told that the life cycle reliability of Chinese engines has still not reached an acceptable level for the PAF. No slap was involved.

Most chinese posters here have claimed on multiple occasions that, WS10 is fully functional, accepted and better in performance (j10/j11/j15) compared to the AL31F. What the general has been conveyed seems to contradict the chinese members here.
 
Dude there lies the problem. When everything has been kept classified, how come you came know that much about JF-17 or J-10 either. It is only that some some trolling member in the forum has mentioned something and other just followed it blindly.

There were many who claimed many of the Su-30mki technology has find it's place in the LCA but I knew that it is untrue or atleast I didn't blindly accept their claim. Luckily for me other than RCS and latest IRST most of the other information has been officially declared in case of LCA.

So start thinking rationally as I have in my career of 2 years association with this type of defence forum.And in my 3 months experience with PDF I have found this type of trolling the most here in PDF.

If you would be following JFT developments pretty closely, there have been ample material published recently on JFT's weapons suit, capabilities. And much of this has not come out as a word of mouth from trolling members. We have an information pool dedicated to JFT for very reasons.
 

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