What's new

Cope India: How the IAF rewrote the rules of air combat

The Sultan Erdogan

FULL MEMBER
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
331
Reaction score
0
Country
Turkey
Location
Turkey
Exactly 10 years ago, in the space of just 13 days, the Indian Air Force dealt a massive blow to the myth of invincibility of the US Air Force. At the Cope India exercise held at the Gwalior air force range on February 15-27, 2004, Indian pilots reportedly notched up an astounding 9:1 kill ratio against the all-powerful USAF, sending shock waves through the American defence establishment.

While the Pentagon brass tried to knock the IAF’s achievement, the USAF gave their Indian counterparts their due. Aviation Week & Space Technology’s David A. Fulghum quotes Colonel Mike Snodgrass, commander of the USAF’s 3rd Wing based at Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska: “The outcome of the exercise boils down to (the fact that) they ran tactics that were more advanced than we expected...They could come up with a game plan, but if it wasn't working they would call an audible and change (tactics in flight).”

02910280b0fd9e3343016c6eb4c3f289.jpg

About the different IAF fighters the six F-15Cs from the 3rd Wing encountered, Snodgrass said: “The two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MiG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MiG-21, and the Su-30MK Flanker, also made in Russia”.

About the capabilities of IAF pilots, USAF team leader Colonel Greg Newbech said: “What we’ve seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with the best air force in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won’t be going home.


“They made good decisions about when to bring their strikers in. The MiG-21s would be embedded with a (MiG-27) Flogger for integral protection. There was a data link between the Flankers that was used to pass information. They built a very good (radar) picture of what we were doing and were able to make good decisions about when to roll (their aircraft) in and out.


The Times of India summed up the aerial encounter: “The US Air Force underestimated the Indian Air Force pilots and their numerical skills. They thought these are another set of Iraqi or Iranian pilots.”

A different spin in D.C.

Used to hearing the United States is second only to god, the US leadership nearly burst a collective artery. The 3rd Wing had barely packed up its kit at Gwalior when Republican Congressman from California, Duke Cunningham, told a House Appropriations defence subcommittee hearing that USAF F-15Cs had been defeated more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF.

Cunningham’s revelation kicked up a huge uproar in Washington DC. Some Western military observers attempted to debunk the results, claiming the USAF did not bring its true ‘go-to-war-gear’ to these exercises and that the American pilots fought with several handicaps. What really happened?

Handicapped and totally unprepared

First up, it’s true the F-15Cs that participated in Cope India 2004 were not equipped with the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars. But then neither were the Indian jets. Secondly, at India’s request the USAF agreed to mock combat at 3-to-1 odds, which meant the six American jets were up against 18 IAF aircraft. And finally, the Americans agreed not to simulate their beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles. Doesn’t look like a fair fight.

But wait, ask yourself, which air force would spend millions of dollars on a fortnight long exercise that ends in a turkey shoot? Not the IAF, which is a highly professional service. Also, why would the USAF bring all that high-octane military gear all that way just to get a drubbing?

The IAF believes its strength is dogfighting, for which it trains hard as Western air forces. Secondly, the service did not deploy its advanced Su-30 MKI Flanker, only the older Su-30, because the MKI’s radar frequencies are classified. There’s little advantage in letting your adversary’s patron know your combat strategies.

The Indians wanting to even the odds is understandable but the United States accepting these handicaps seems counterintuitive. But in fact the USAF agreed because it was desperate to get a close look at the legendary Flanker.

5e4a7a57ff9402c556a161e9e49be0fa.jpg

Why the USAF came up short

The lopsided result can be explained in the difference in combat styles of the two air forces. While the IAF varied aircraft mixes, altitudes and formations, the American pilot seemed stuck in the static Cold War-style of ground-controlled interceptions, which gives little leeway to the individual pilot. Weaknesses in crew performance and limitations in their range of action were evident during the simulated aerial combat.

Also, US fighter pilots train in a closed system where delusion in the America military’s superiority reigns supreme. The belief is that overwhelming numbers – recall the 1000 bomber raids over defenceless and tiny Iraq – and technological pyrotechnics allow the US to dominate without sweating it out.

The 1982 wipeout of the Syrian Air Force by the Israelis in which 82 Syrian MiGs were downed against the loss of just two American-built Israeli Air Force jets had reinforced the myth of superiority of US jet fighters. Cope India 2004 showed the quality of the men in uniform matters more than the jets they fly.


Cope India 2005: Repeat performance


Because of the storm kicked up by Cope India 2004, the following year the IAF and USAF opted for exercises that had mixed teams of Indian and American pilots on both sides. But observers and participants at Cope India 2005 said in a surprising number of encounters – particularly between USAF F-16s and Indian Su-30 MKIs – the Indian pilots came out on top.

46d27d1741bed4b5c2922944858b7f9f.jpg

Cope India 2005 proved the previous year’s IAF performance was no fluke. Retired air commodore Jasjit Singh, who is also director of the new Delhi-based Centre for Air Power Studies said: “Since the Cold War, there has been the general assumption that India is a third world country with Soviet technology, and wherever Soviet-supported equipment went, it didn't perform well. That myth has been blown away by the results.”

Stealth myth

Another copout being used by some in the US defence fraternity is Cope India 2004 was staged to pave the way for the F-22 and F-35 stealth fighters. However, these big-ticket projects – or rather white elephants – were already on their way, and did not need a push. It’s not like the guys at Lockheed were woken up the night after the Gwalior drubbing and asked to get back to work.

Air power dynamics

Ten years after that paradigm shifting exercise, the IAF strike forces are of an entirely different magnitude. The MiG-21s are being retired, and the MiG-27 will be gone by 2017. However, the increasingly modern versions of the Su-30MKI – having a loiter and combat persistence ability that has no Western equivalent – will continue to give the IAF’s adversaries and American aircraft designers many sleepless nights.

For the US, Cope India should be a wakeup call. Its overreliance on stealth and long range radar is resulting in a generation of leaden footed and predictable pilots. While this strategy will prevail against puny adversaries such as Iraq and Libya, the equation is entirely different when the opponent is well trained and innovative – like India or Vietnam.

Also, not underestimating the enemy would be good idea too. For instance, while the performances of the IAF’s Mirage-2000 and Su-30 were expected, the MiG-21 Bison came as a nasty surprise to the USAF. The positive attributes of the MiG-21 such as low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate and “jackrabbit acceleration" were critical factors at Cope India.

9db4ede929ef38e5c8aee5ea8ea57451.jpg


Plus, its new of helmet mounted sight and high-off-boresight R-73 air-to-air missiles turned the MiG-21 into a “Great Equaliser” in the WVR (within visual range) combat scenario. It also validated the claim of Russian officials that they are capable of converting second generation late-model MiG-21 fighters to Generation 4 combat platforms.

This has serious implications for air forces inducting stealth fighters. At some stage aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 will have to come within visual range and that’s when pocket rockets like the MiG-21 can be deadly. As Ben Lambeth of the Rand Corporation so succinctly put it, “In visual combat everybody dies at the same rate.”

With the benefit of hindsight, it’s good the Americans discovered their shortcomings in peace rather than war. Had the pilots of the 3rd Wing come up against the might of Russian air power during the Cold War, they probably wouldn’t have winged it back to Alaska.

Cope India: How the IAF rewrote the rules of air combat | Russia & India Report

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -- - -- - - - -- - - -- -- - - - - - - - - - - -

Very interesting and insightful article.

Hopefully, PAF commanders and officials studied, in detail, the results and internal reports of U.S-India exercises and know the true capability of Indian Air Force and its pilots. One should never underestimate its enemy, specially when the enemy is as powerful as Indian Air Force.

Today, Indian Air Force is a behemoth in making...with massive size, decent organization, and now--increasing levels of professionalism and elite pilot training.

@Oscar @Horus @Windjammer @500 @Hyperion @Indian Army @fatman17 @Icarus @Rashid Mahmood

And other senior members.

Talk away...
 
well,some said these exercises are just a way to secure more money for defence.its not that I disagree the fact,but there is barely anyone who would deny this fact that IAF is quite strong to take in 3:1 ratio.

USAF is truly the very best.but in the face of overwhelming odd,even they become defenceless.
 
If the actual results has been such, do you think the IAF or the Indian media would have remained quite about it.
Fact is after conclusion of Indra Dhanush-1, despite both commanders agreeing not to disclose anything to media, the IAF commander couldn't contain himself in boasting about shooting down an RAF Tornado and later when some Typhoons made mincemeat of MKIs, disclosed by none other than the RAF Chief, Indians came up with stories of radars not being switched on or something.
Despite news getting leaked on PAF repeatedly scoring over the likes of Typhoons and F-15 Eagles, it quietly goes about it's business and is all geared up to meet the challenge from IAF.
 
It's rather sad that despite our expertise in man and machine we still far from being the truly formidable that we could be, due the lackadaisical attitude of our political masters. The technological and numerical gap between our core adversary is gradually whittling away in the meanwhile.

One can only hope things change for the better with the change in government.
Indian myth making continues.
If the actual results has been such, do you think the IAF or the Indian media would have remained quite about it.
Fact is after conclusion of Indra Dhanush-1, despite both commanders agreeing not to disclose anything to media, the IAF commander couldn't contain himself in boasting about shooting down an RAF Tornado and later when some Typhoons made mincemeat of MKIs, disclosed by none other than the RAF Chief, Indians came up with stories of radars not being switched on or something.
Despite news getting leaked on PAF repeatedly scoring over the likes of Typhoons and F-15 Eagles, it quietly goes about it's business and is all geared up to meet the challenge from IAF.


Here's what counters your hear-say and conjectures and flights of fancy. Read on

Ø The IAF did not undertake any IvIs at Nellis during Red Flag, nor did they engage thrust vectoring during the Exercise. IvIs were flown only at Mountain Home AFB. In none of the IvIs were the Su-30MKIs ever vulnerable, let alone shot down. As all exercises were flown with ACMI, the situations are recorded and available to substantiate this aspect. Additionally, the MKI’s behaviour with thrust vectoring is dramatically different from that described by the Colonel. F-15 and F-16 aircrew were well appreciative of IAF manoeuvres with thrust vectoring.

Ø Colonel Fornof’s statement on Su-30MKI rates of turn with thrust vectoring (20o/ sec) is grossly ‘out’ but apparently gives away actual F-22 performance (28o/sec) Pitch of the talk seemed as to whether thrust vectoring was important or not. As all sorties were with ACMI, entire profiles are recorded, can be analysed and surely would have been replayed to drive the point home and make the ‘chest thumping’ sound more real. Apparently this was not done. Perhaps, as the Colonel is aware of F-22 data, he has tried to down play the Su-30MKI in comparison. Surprisingly, while there was no systems / avionics / comparison between the two types or with any other type of ‘legacy’ aircraft, the speaker does admit that radar of the MKI is ‘superior’ to that of the F-15 and F-16, however ‘inferior’ to AESA of the F-22 (a correct assessment). However, the IAF used the Su-30′s radar in the training mode, with downgraded performance vis-à-vis operational mo! de, as they could hardly participate without this primary sensor

Ø The ‘Bison’ radar : the USAF should be aware that the ‘Bison’ does not have an Israeli radar, it is Russian. Nor does the Su-30MKI have Tumansky engines (but the NPO-Saturn). Surprisingly the Colonel seems oblivious of such facts, yet tries to convey that he is an authority on the matter.


Ø However, Colonel Fornof did appreciate IAF ‘professionalism’ and that the IAF were able to dovetail with USAF procedures within short time. There was not a single training rule / airspace violation. This is a most important aspect.

Ø Since the Colonel could hardly tell his audience that the IAF had given the USAF good run for their money, they downplayed the Su-30′s capability. It is correct that the IAF aircrew included some very young pilots — nearly 70 percent – but they adapted rapidly to the environment (totally alien), training rules (significantly different), airspace regulations etc but to say that they were unable to handle the Su-30 in its envelope (something that they have been practicing to do for four to five years) is just not credible ! If young pilots can adapt to new rules and environment within a short span of two weeks, it is because they are extremely comfortable and confident of their aircraft.

Ø The IAF’s all round performance was publicly acknowledged during, and at end of the Exercise, specifically by those involved. Not a single TR / airspace violation was acknowledged. Mission achievement rate was in excess of 90%. The drop out / mission success rates of all others, inclusive of USAF, were significantly lower. This is of major significance considering the fact that IAF was sustaining operations 20,000 km away from home base while the USAF were at home base. (The 8 Su-30s flew some 850 hrs during the deployment, which is equivalent to four months of flying task in India over 75 days). IAF’s performance at Mountain Home AFB was even better that that at Nellis AFB.

Ø FOD : At Mountain Home, IAF had reduced departure intervals from the very beginning (30″ seconds) considering that operating surfaces were very clean. However, a few minor nicks were encountered and it was decided to revert to 60 seconds rather than undertake engine changes. This was communicated by the IAF at the very start (IPC itself).

Ø There is no need to go in for ‘kill ratios’ as that would be demeaning. However, the IAF had significant edge throughout and retained it. In fact the true lesson for the USAF should be : ‘do not field low value legacy equipment against the Su-30MKI’ !.

(demeaning or otherwise, it is understood that the kill ratio (at Mountain Home AFB) was 21 : 1, in favour of the Su-30MKIs).

- See more at: A final word, from India, on 'YouTube Terry' - The DEW Line

Think twice and know more before you begin your trolling else you will forever justify the not so respectable version of your moniker.

Peace out
 
Last edited:
@The Sultan Erdogan

Author | Rakesh Krishnan Simha

Indian myth making continues.

Here is what happened when the Indians took their MKIs to Red Flag.



PAF is well equipped and well trained to take on the Indians should the rubber meet the road.

Yeah I know the usual line...P is better I everything. but in a real war they always take a drubbing. And such brifings are done the same way everywere. IAF will say USAF is trash, PAF will say the same about IAF and so on.
 
Exactly 10 years ago, in the space of just 13 days, the Indian Air Force dealt a massive blow to the myth of invincibility of the US Air Force. At the Cope India exercise held at the Gwalior air force range on February 15-27, 2004, Indian pilots reportedly notched up an astounding 9:1 kill ratio against the all-powerful USAF, sending shock waves through the American defence establishment.

While the Pentagon brass tried to knock the IAF’s achievement, the USAF gave their Indian counterparts their due. Aviation Week & Space Technology’s David A. Fulghum quotes Colonel Mike Snodgrass, commander of the USAF’s 3rd Wing based at Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska: “The outcome of the exercise boils down to (the fact that) they ran tactics that were more advanced than we expected...They could come up with a game plan, but if it wasn't working they would call an audible and change (tactics in flight).”

View attachment 84456

About the different IAF fighters the six F-15Cs from the 3rd Wing encountered, Snodgrass said: “The two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MiG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MiG-21, and the Su-30MK Flanker, also made in Russia”.

About the capabilities of IAF pilots, USAF team leader Colonel Greg Newbech said: “What we’ve seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with the best air force in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won’t be going home.

“They made good decisions about when to bring their strikers in. The MiG-21s would be embedded with a (MiG-27) Flogger for integral protection. There was a data link between the Flankers that was used to pass information. They built a very good (radar) picture of what we were doing and were able to make good decisions about when to roll (their aircraft) in and out.


The Times of India summed up the aerial encounter: “The US Air Force underestimated the Indian Air Force pilots and their numerical skills. They thought these are another set of Iraqi or Iranian pilots.”

A different spin in D.C.

Used to hearing the United States is second only to god, the US leadership nearly burst a collective artery. The 3rd Wing had barely packed up its kit at Gwalior when Republican Congressman from California, Duke Cunningham, told a House Appropriations defence subcommittee hearing that USAF F-15Cs had been defeated more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF.

Cunningham’s revelation kicked up a huge uproar in Washington DC. Some Western military observers attempted to debunk the results, claiming the USAF did not bring its true ‘go-to-war-gear’ to these exercises and that the American pilots fought with several handicaps. What really happened?

Handicapped and totally unprepared

First up, it’s true the F-15Cs that participated in Cope India 2004 were not equipped with the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars. But then neither were the Indian jets. Secondly, at India’s request the USAF agreed to mock combat at 3-to-1 odds, which meant the six American jets were up against 18 IAF aircraft. And finally, the Americans agreed not to simulate their beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles. Doesn’t look like a fair fight.

But wait, ask yourself, which air force would spend millions of dollars on a fortnight long exercise that ends in a turkey shoot? Not the IAF, which is a highly professional service. Also, why would the USAF bring all that high-octane military gear all that way just to get a drubbing?

The IAF believes its strength is dogfighting, for which it trains hard as Western air forces. Secondly, the service did not deploy its advanced Su-30 MKI Flanker, only the older Su-30, because the MKI’s radar frequencies are classified. There’s little advantage in letting your adversary’s patron know your combat strategies.

The Indians wanting to even the odds is understandable but the United States accepting these handicaps seems counterintuitive. But in fact the USAF agreed because it was desperate to get a close look at the legendary Flanker.

View attachment 84457

Why the USAF came up short

The lopsided result can be explained in the difference in combat styles of the two air forces. While the IAF varied aircraft mixes, altitudes and formations, the American pilot seemed stuck in the static Cold War-style of ground-controlled interceptions, which gives little leeway to the individual pilot. Weaknesses in crew performance and limitations in their range of action were evident during the simulated aerial combat.

Also, US fighter pilots train in a closed system where delusion in the America military’s superiority reigns supreme. The belief is that overwhelming numbers – recall the 1000 bomber raids over defenceless and tiny Iraq – and technological pyrotechnics allow the US to dominate without sweating it out.

The 1982 wipeout of the Syrian Air Force by the Israelis in which 82 Syrian MiGs were downed against the loss of just two American-built Israeli Air Force jets had reinforced the myth of superiority of US jet fighters. Cope India 2004 showed the quality of the men in uniform matters more than the jets they fly.

Cope India 2005: Repeat performance


Because of the storm kicked up by Cope India 2004, the following year the IAF and USAF opted for exercises that had mixed teams of Indian and American pilots on both sides. But observers and participants at Cope India 2005 said in a surprising number of encounters – particularly between USAF F-16s and Indian Su-30 MKIs – the Indian pilots came out on top.

View attachment 84458

Cope India 2005 proved the previous year’s IAF performance was no fluke. Retired air commodore Jasjit Singh, who is also director of the new Delhi-based Centre for Air Power Studies said: “Since the Cold War, there has been the general assumption that India is a third world country with Soviet technology, and wherever Soviet-supported equipment went, it didn't perform well. That myth has been blown away by the results.”

Stealth myth

Another copout being used by some in the US defence fraternity is Cope India 2004 was staged to pave the way for the F-22 and F-35 stealth fighters. However, these big-ticket projects – or rather white elephants – were already on their way, and did not need a push. It’s not like the guys at Lockheed were woken up the night after the Gwalior drubbing and asked to get back to work.

Air power dynamics

Ten years after that paradigm shifting exercise, the IAF strike forces are of an entirely different magnitude. The MiG-21s are being retired, and the MiG-27 will be gone by 2017. However, the increasingly modern versions of the Su-30MKI – having a loiter and combat persistence ability that has no Western equivalent – will continue to give the IAF’s adversaries and American aircraft designers many sleepless nights.

For the US, Cope India should be a wakeup call. Its overreliance on stealth and long range radar is resulting in a generation of leaden footed and predictable pilots. While this strategy will prevail against puny adversaries such as Iraq and Libya, the equation is entirely different when the opponent is well trained and innovative – like India or Vietnam.

Also, not underestimating the enemy would be good idea too. For instance, while the performances of the IAF’s Mirage-2000 and Su-30 were expected, the MiG-21 Bison came as a nasty surprise to the USAF. The positive attributes of the MiG-21 such as low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate and “jackrabbit acceleration" were critical factors at Cope India.

View attachment 84459


Plus, its new of helmet mounted sight and high-off-boresight R-73 air-to-air missiles turned the MiG-21 into a “Great Equaliser” in the WVR (within visual range) combat scenario. It also validated the claim of Russian officials that they are capable of converting second generation late-model MiG-21 fighters to Generation 4 combat platforms.

This has serious implications for air forces inducting stealth fighters. At some stage aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 will have to come within visual range and that’s when pocket rockets like the MiG-21 can be deadly. As Ben Lambeth of the Rand Corporation so succinctly put it, “In visual combat everybody dies at the same rate.”

With the benefit of hindsight, it’s good the Americans discovered their shortcomings in peace rather than war. Had the pilots of the 3rd Wing come up against the might of Russian air power during the Cold War, they probably wouldn’t have winged it back to Alaska.

Cope India: How the IAF rewrote the rules of air combat | Russia & India Report

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -- - -- - - - -- - - -- -- - - - - - - - - - - -

Very interesting and insightful article.

Hopefully, PAF commanders and officials studied, in detail, the results and internal reports of U.S-India exercises and know the true capability of Indian Air Force and its pilots. One should never underestimate its enemy, specially when the enemy is as powerful as Indian Air Force.

Today, Indian Air Force is a behemoth in making...with massive size, decent organization, and now--increasing levels of professionalism and elite pilot training.

@Oscar @Horus @Windjammer @500 @Hyperion @Indian Army @fatman17 @Icarus @Rashid Mahmood

And other senior members.

Talk away...
you just invited the trolling.
 
And other senior members.

Talk away...
Well Mr President, I am skeptical about these reports. First of all they are basically nothing but rumors, secondly no one will reveal true characteristics of their planes and equipment like radars and EW. For example Indian air force commander banned to turn on radars at all.
 
If the actual results has been such, do you think the IAF or the Indian media would have remained quite about it.

Fact is after conclusion of Indra Dhanush-1, despite both commanders agreeing not to disclose anything to media, the IAF commander couldn't contain himself in boasting about shooting down an RAF Tornado and later when some Typhoons made mincemeat of MKIs, disclosed by none other than the RAF Chief, Indians came up with stories of radars not being switched on or something.

Despite news getting leaked on PAF repeatedly scoring over the likes of Typhoons and F-15 Eagles, it quietly goes about it's business and is all geared up to meet the challenge from IAF.

Where is your source of Eurofighters mincemeating Su-30MKIs?

Also, any sources for PAF shooting down Eurofighters and specially F-15 Eagles?

Alan Warnes reports of PAF shooting down Typhoons were questioned by skeptics as the accounts did not add up, as far as I remember.

Anyways, sources will be appreciated.

Well Mr President, I am skeptical about these reports. First of all they are basically nothing but rumors, secondly no one will reveal true characteristics of their planes and equipment like radars and EW. For example Indian air force commander banned to turn on radars at all.

What is the budget of Israeli Air Force?
 
Americans were trying to sell their F-15s and F-18s to India in those days in order to fulfill India's MRCA request.
 

Back
Top Bottom