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Debating Liberal Fascism

No such thing as a liberal fascist. More appropriate thread titling might be Fawning it up. Or for the layman, Debating Lackey Authoritarianism. There's more common man descriptions, but i'll desist for the moment.

But i think there's certainly one or two brown nosers in the crowd here ;)
 
This the famous Pakistani sense of entitlement in display. Other than that, this is a specious argument. What matters in Afghanistan is Afghanistan's interest. Nothing else.

We learned it the hard way in SriLanka.. Did'nt we mate?
None the less, im proud, we mended our path, if late.
 
Liberal: open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard : favorable to or respectful of individual rights and freedoms.

That' a self-serving definition. Liberalism, in it's extreme form, often leads to elitism. This is true around the world, including Pakistan.

Elitism is just the leftist cousin of fascism.
 
That' a self-serving definition. Liberalism, in it's extreme form, often leads to elitism. This is true around the world, including Pakistan.

Elitism is just the leftist cousin of fascism.

That's true in some ways i think. Capitalism which is generally deregulated and at an extreme might be the extreme of liberalism, or neoliberalism, might lead to elitism, but that would only be in the economic sense. Liberal thought isn't really going to give rise to elitism.

But elitism isn't a cousin of fascism. Consequently liberalism wouldn't be in any sense.
 
That' a self-serving definition. Liberalism, in it's extreme form, often leads to elitism. This is true around the world, including Pakistan.

Elitism is just the leftist cousin of fascism.

My definition is a commonly used definition of the word liberal, perhaps you can contribute a better definition but I do not believe that you can stretch it to include 'elitism' as an extension of the said word.

Elitism can occur in any society, liberalism is not, by any means, a precursor for elitism. The latter is the product of uneven advantage for one group over the others leading to dominance in all walks of society.

Thus your link is void and I stand correct in my assertion that the term 'liberal fascist' is an oxymoron.
 
My definition is a commonly used definition of the word liberal, perhaps you can contribute a better definition but I do not believe that you can stretch it to include 'elitism' as an extension of the said word.

Elitism can occur in any society, liberalism is not, by any means, a precursor for elitism. The latter is the product of uneven advantage for one group over the others leading to dominance in all walks of society.

Thus your link is void and I stand correct in my assertion that the term 'liberal fascist' is an oxymoron.

The issue is not so much the definition, but whether it applies to the people involved. The term liberal is overused: in Australia, the center-right party calls itself the Liberal Party, whereas in the US the term is used to differentiate leftists from conservatives. American conservatives will be the first to claim (rightly or wrongly) that they are the defenders of individual liberties and freedoms from the liberal agenda which, purportedly, subjugates individual rights to the liberal vision of a 'greater good' -- hence the charge of elitism.

In any case, even if we accept your definition of liberalism, then these Pakistani commentators are not liberal by that definition. The entire premise of the phrase "liberal fascist" is that these people are not liberal, but fascists. Given their intellectual bankruptcy, unwillingness to accept moderation, and tendency to parrot Western/Indian propaganda verbatim, they might more aptly be called "faddists" since they blindly follow the latest fad in the anti-Pakistan circles.

Pervez Hoodbhoy is always eager to tell you, asked or unasked, that Pakistani nukes are just a hair's breadth away from falling into Taliban hands. Nadeem Paracha can't string three sentences together without breaking out into anti-Muslim hysterics. Aisha Siddiqa never met an army-bashing conspiracy she didn't like.

Admittedly, there are moderate liberals with impeccable patriotic credentials like Sherry Rahman and Imran Khan, but they get drowned out by extremists on both sides.
 
Lets talk about Drone attacks and lets hear the views of those who ACTUALLY get affected like those living in Tribal Areas. Lets look at a legitimate survey here and talk FACTS for once.

The Aryana Institute for Regional Research and Advocacy, a think tank of researchers and political activists from the NWFP and FATA, conducts research, surveys and collect statistics on various issues concerning the Taliban and Al-Qaeda terrorism and human security there. AIRRA research teams go deep inside Taliban- and Al-Qaeda-occupied areas of FATA to collect information. Most of the areas are not accessible to journalists.

Between last November and January AIRRA sent five teams, each made up of five researchers, to the parts of FATA that are often hit by American drones, to conduct a survey of public opinion about the attacks. The team visited Wana (South Waziristan), Ladda (South Waziristan), Miranshah (North Waziristan), Razmak (North Waziristan) and Parachinar (Kurram Agency). The teams handed out 650 structured questionnaires to people in the areas. The questionnaires were in Pashto, English and Urdu. The 550 respondents (100 declined to answer) were from professions related to business, education, health and transport.

Following are the questions and the responses of the people of FATA.

-- Do you see drone attacks bringing about fear and terror in the common people? (Yes 45%, No 55%)

-- Do you think the drones are accurate in their strikes? (Yes 52%, No 48%)

-- Do you think anti-American feelings in the area increased due to drone attacks recently? (Yes 42%, No 58%)

-- Should Pakistan military carry out targeted strikes at the militant organisations? (Yes 70%, No 30%)

-- Do the militant organisations get damaged due to drone attacks? (Yes 60%, No 40%)

A group of researchers at AIRRA draw these conclusions from the survey. The popular notion outside the Pakhtun belt that a large majority of the local population supports the Taliban movement lacks substance. The notion that anti-Americanism in the region has not increased due to drone attacks is rejected. The study supports the notion that a large majority of the people in the Pakhtun belt wants to be incorporated with the state and wants to integrate with the rest of the world.

The survey also reinforces my own ethnographic interactions with people of FATA, both inside FATA and the FATA IDP’s in the NWFP. This includes people I personally met and those I am in contact with through telephone calls and emails. This includes men and women, from illiterate to people with university level education. The number is well over 2000. I asked almost all those people if they see the US drone attacks on FATA as violation of Pakistan’s sovereignty. More than two-third said they did not.

Pakistan’s sovereignty, they argued, was insulted and annihilated by Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, whose territory FATA is after Pakistan lost it to them[/U]
.

The US is violating the sovereignty of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, not of Pakistan[/U]

Almost half the people said that the US drones attacking Islamabad or Lahore will be violation of the sovereignty of Pakistan, because these areas are not taken over by the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Many people laughed when I mentioned the word sovereignty with respect to Pakistan.


Over two-thirds of the people viewed Al-Qaeda and the Taliban as enemy number one, and wanted the Pakistani army to clear the area of the militants. A little under two-thirds want the Americans to continue the drone attack because the Pakistani army is unable or unwilling to retake the territory from the Taliban.

The people I asked about civilian causalities in the drone attacks said most of the attacks had hit their targets, which include Arab, Chechen, Uzbek and Tajik terrorists of Al-Qaeda, Pakistani Taliban (Pakhtun and Punjabis) and training camps of the terrorists. There has been some collateral damage.

The drones hit hujras or houses which the Taliban forced people to rent out to them. There is collateral damage when the family forced to rent out the property is living in an adjacent house or a portion of the property rented out.

The Taliban and Al Qaeda have unleashed a reign of terror on the people of FATA. People are afraid that the Taliban will suspect their loyalty and behead them. Thus, in order to prove their loyalty to the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, they offer them to rent their houses and hujras for residential purposes.


There are people who are linked with the Taliban. Terrorists visit their houses as guests and live in the houses and hujras. The drones attacks kill women and small children of the hosts. These are innocent deaths because the women and children have no role in the men’s links with terrorists.

Other innocent victims are local people who just happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

People told me that typically what happens after every drone attack is that the Taliban and Al-Qaeda terrorists cordon off the area. No one from the local population is allowed to access the site, even if there are local people killed or injured. Their relatives cry and beg the terrorists to let them go near the site. But the Taliban and Al Qaeda do not allow them. The Taliban and Al Qaeda remove everything they want from the site and then allow the locals to see the site.

The survey conducted by AIRRA and my ethnographic interactions contradict the mantra of violation of the sovereignty of Pakistan perpetuated by the armchair analysts in the media. I have been arguing on these pages that analyses of those analysts have nothing to do with the reality of the FATA people. For some reason they take FATA for granted. They feel they are at liberty to fantasise whatever they like about FATA and present to the audience as a truth. Some of those armchair analysts also have a misplaced optimism about themselves. They believe my challenge to their fantasies about FATA is because I like to give them time! I give time to the land I love--FATA and the NWFP--and to the state I am loyal to--Pakistan.

What is happening in FATA is destroying the lives and culture of the FATA people, threatening the integrity of Pakistan and world peace. Fantasies of the armchair analysts are helping no one but Al Qaeda and the Taliban--enemies of the land and culture I love, and our state. I will therefore continue to challenge the fantasies of the armchairs analysts, whenever possible.


Farhat Taj
 
I rarely trust polls and ones by the Aryana Institute are no exception.

Following are the questions and the responses of the people of FATA.

-- Do you see drone attacks bringing about fear and terror in the common people? (Yes 45%, No 55%)

So half the people of FATA, that's around 2 million people, feel that drone attacks bring fear and terror (if polling is accurate). urgh, that is....... quite a lot, ya know?

-- Do you think the drones are accurate in their strikes? (Yes 52%, No 48%)

-- Do you think anti-American feelings in the area increased due to drone attacks recently? (Yes 42%, No 58%)

Same as above

-- Should Pakistan military carry out targeted strikes at the militant organisations? (Yes 70%, No 30%)

Against militant organizations, yes. But half the people of FATA think that drone strikes are inaccurate. So this is not a recommendation for drone strikes.

-- Do the militant organisations get damaged due to drone attacks? (Yes 60%, No 40%)

And civilians perhaps too, but that wasn't asked.

Drone attacks are criminal because of the collateral damage. Anyone who does support them should go and live in areas where they could be targeted.
 
Farhat Taj Andersen is sitting comfortably in Oslo, Norway. That's why she is so cavalier about the drones.

Lets keep this ridiculous notion that just because your studying in the 'West' you hold no merit or authority over the subject matter because that quite frankly is silly to say the least. The Aryana Institute of regional research and advocacy is a well respected organization who have many members from the FATA and Khyber Pakhtukhwa region. Their main office is based in Islamabad and they have ample tools at their resources to get as accurate information as possible. Maybe you should read about them a little bit rather than completely ditching their research without any factual basis of your own.
 
On a side note another brilliant article by the Jamestown Organization which is a great independent source for getting legitimate information about current events. Unlike most people here I don't post Conspiracy nonsense.

The Jamestown Foundation: New Light on the Accuracy of the CIA’s Predator Drone Campaign in Pakistan

Widely-cited reports of the inaccuracy and disproportionality of civilian to militant deaths in the CIA’s ongoing Predator drone campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaeda in Pakistan are grossly misleading. The most detailed database compiled to date, assembled by the authors of this article, indicates (among other important findings) that the strikes have not only been impressively accurate, but have achieved and maintained a greater proportionality than either ground operations in the area or targeting campaigns elsewhere. [1]

This finding is striking because highly critical reports over the last year, emanating in particular from the Pakistani press, have impugned both the accuracy of the CIA’s drone strikes in the tribal areas of that country and the proportionality of the civilian collateral damage they cause. In April 2009, for example, the Pakistani daily The News published an article by terrorism expert Amir Mir reporting Predator strikes had killed only 14 high value al-Qaeda targets but were responsible for 687 civilian fatalities – a 1:49 ratio of terrorist to civilians (The News [Islamabad], April 10, 2009; see also Terrorism Monitor, February 19). To put it another way, Mir’s report suggested that 98.14% of fatalities associated with the Predator strikes were civilians. On February 1 of this year, Mir added that in January 2010 alone 123 Pakistani civilians had been killed in ten errant CIA drone strikes, while only three al-Qaeda targets had been eliminated (The News, February 1). These shocking statistics were picked up and widely reported in the Western press (New York Times, May 16). Along similar lines another Pakistani daily, Dawn, reported in January 2010 that “of the 44 Predator strikes carried out by U.S. drones in the tribal areas of Pakistan over the past 12 months, only five were able to hit their actual targets, killing five key al-Qaeda and Taliban leaders, but at the cost of over 700 innocent lives. For each al-Qaeda and Taliban terrorist killed by the American drones, 140 civilian Pakistanis also had to die” (Dawn [Karachi], January 2). Such reports have reinforced the notion that drone strikes are not only inaccurate, but seem to kill innocent civilians in wildly disproportionate numbers. However, even a cursory investigation of The News and Dawn’s own reports of Predator strikes on a case by case basis reveals that the great majority of fatalities are reported as “militants” or “suspected militants.” These discrepancies highlight the need for a thorough, independent and verifiable investigation of the reported toll of the U.S. drone campaign.

Methodology

The authors of this article have compiled a database over the last year that draws extensively on Pakistani newspapers (in their English language versions), and Western newspapers of record (primarily the New York Times and Washington Post). Only cases in which it was possible to compare multiple independent reports of drone strikes have been included. Where reported numbers of fatalities differed, we have favored the most detailed and updated account, always using low-end estimates of suspected militants slain. [2] All children under 13 and women were assumed to be civilian, along with all of those specifically identified as civilians, bystanders or locals uninvolved in the fighting. Where it was impossible to determine whether a person killed was properly categorized as a suspected militant or civilian, we assigned them to the category of “unknowns.” By systematically applying these simple rules to the universe of available information, we have assembled what we believe to be the most comprehensive and credible database of Predator drone strikes in this operational region currently available.

The Findings

According to our database, as of June 19, 2010, there have been a total of 144 confirmed CIA drone strikes in Pakistan, killing a total of 1,372 people. Of those killed, only 68 (or 4.95%) could be clearly identified as civilians, while 1,098 (or 80%) were reported to be “militants” or “suspected militants” (see Figure 4). As these terms are used somewhat interchangeably by the Pakistani press, we simply classified all of them as “suspected militants.” This category of suspected militants includes 50 high value targets – that is, al-Qaeda and Taliban leaders, whether local commanders or senior militant chiefs. The status of the remaining 206 (or 15% of) individuals killed in drone strikes could not be ascertained, and consequently they were assigned to the category “unknown.” The inclusion of this indeterminate category is admittedly frustrating but unavoidable given the limited and sometimes contradictory reports emanating from the inaccessible tribal areas. It is important to stress, however, that even if every single “unknown” is assumed to in fact be a civilian, the vast majority of fatalities would remain suspected militants rather than civilians – indeed, by more than a 4:1 ratio. [3] On the more precise count of civilians (leaving “unknowns” aside), we found an even more imbalanced ratio of approximately 16.5 suspected militant fatalities for each civilian death. [4] Equally striking, we found a 1.36 to 1 (or close to 1 to 1) ratio of civilians to high value target fatalities (in stark contrast with Mir’s 49 to 1 report). Finally, in contrast to Mir’s report of 123 civilian casualties in January 2010 (with only 3 al-Qaeda targets killed), we found 0 civilians, 85 suspected militants and 16 unknowns killed in that month.

We also wanted to be careful to address any concerns that Western papers, including those of record like the New York Times and the Washington Post, might be underreporting civilian casualties, and that by relying at times on their stories we were introducing a downward bias into that element of our data. We therefore ran a second analysis, applying the same categories and criteria solely to the Pakistani news sources (specifically, Dawn, The Daily Times and The News). The results were even more striking. We found reports of 1,061 suspected militants killed, 48 civilians, and 251 unknowns, for a ratio of 22.1:1:5.2. Although some ambiguity is suggested by the slightly higher number of unknowns, the lower absolute number of civilians in the Pakistani data along with the higher proportion of suspected militants to civilians indicates that, if anything, leading Western news sources are leaning towards over-reporting the number of civilian casualties and underreporting suspected militants killed, at least in relation to representative local news sources. At any rate, we take this result based solely on Pakistani data to reinforce our main finding of a surprisingly high reported rate of suspected militant fatalities to civilians, particularly in the light of a number of widely circulated stories sharply to the contrary.

Indeed, even our main finding of a 16.5:1 suspected militant to civilian fatality ratio significantly exceeds that recently reported on CNN for the period of 2006 to 2009 by Peter Bergen and Katherine Tiedemann, who suggested that around two-thirds of those killed in the campaign were suspected militants. [5] Some (although not all) of the variance here can be accounted for in a difference of methodology: where Bergen and Tiedemann appear to assume that all of those who are not clearly reported as suspected militants must be civilians, we allowed that in some cases the available data is insufficient to be confident one way or the other. We also focused on the most updated and credible reports, while Bergen and Tiedemann simply compiled all reports into loose ranges of possible fatality levels. The result of our more rigorous and comprehensive approach is a substantially more lopsided ratio in favor of suspected militant fatalities.

Our data also revealed that despite a substantial intensification of the Predator strikes starting in 2008 and accelerating through 2009 into 2010, and the broadening of target categories to include low level Pakistani Taliban, the ratio of suspected militant to civilian fatalities has remained steadily high and has gradually (if unevenly) improved. [6] After incremental increases in attacks from one in 2004 and three in 2005, 2006 and 2007, strikes escalated drastically to 33 in 2008, 54 in 2009 and 30 in the first three months of 2010 alone (See Figure 3). Still, far from showing a reduction of accuracy as the campaign has accelerated, our data shows that the ratio of suspected militant to civilian deaths has improved from the approximate 6:1 and 7.8:1 ratios that characterized 2004 and 2006 respectively, to 13:1 in 2005 and 14.067:1 in 2008, peaking in 2007 and 2010 (up to June 19) when no confirmed civilian deaths were reported (see Figure 2). [7]

Moreover, the campaign’s overall ratio of suspected militant to civilian fatalities appears to be substantially better than both that of ground operations in the region undertaken by the Pakistani Army and of non-drone operations executed in the area by U.S. forces, as indicated in Figure 1 below (columns 1-4). It has also greatly exceeded the efficiency of the Israeli targeted-killing campaign conducted in the West Bank and Gaza in response to the second Intifada, according to figures collected by B’Tselem, a well-established human rights organization active in the area (column 5). [8] Not surprisingly in light of the foregoing, the CIA drone campaign has also bettered the most oft-cited proportionality statistic for armed conflict in general at the end of the twentieth century (column 6). Indeed, as Figure 1 suggests, the closest contender in terms of militant to civilian proportionality is the reported impact of the Pakistani Army’s Swat offensive in 2007, which was just over one quarter the ratio in terms of suspected militant to civilian deaths. At the other extreme, the most often cited statistic for armed conflict in general at the end of the twentieth century is less than 1/150th the ratio.

Conclusion

One conclusion that can be confidently drawn from this brief analysis of our database is that the available evidence on the CIA’s Predator campaign suggests that it is neither inefficient nor disproportionate in terms of civilian casualties, at least in relation to alternative means of conducting hostilities and/or other recent targeting campaigns for which credible numbers are available. This conclusion does not, of course, resolve the ongoing debate over the use of Predator drones. Other objections are certainly being raised, perhaps most interestingly that their use may make going to war too easy, and thus result in a proliferation of armed conflict. [9] We hope, however, that it does move the debate forward by shedding a more balanced light on the numbers of civilian casualties reported by the Pakistani media.

Further Sources and References

Notes:

1. The database is a comprised of news stories available at the time of its compilation and is subject to ongoing amendment as new information becomes available.
2. So, for example, if a story says most of the dead were suspected militants, we have counted only half plus one; if a story says three to four militants were killed, we have counted three.
3. The exact ration is 3.6981132:1.
4. The exact ratio is 19.215682745:1.
5. Peter Bergen and Katherine Tiedemann, “Pakistan Drone War Takes a Toll on Militants,” CNN, edition.cnn.com/2009/OPINION/10/29/bergen.drone.war/. Bergen and Tiedemann estimate 615 militants and 292 civilians; for Bergen and Tiedemann’s full dataset, see counterterrorism.newamerica.net/drones.
6. Adam Entous, “CIA Drones Hit Wider Range of Targets in Pakistan,” ABC News, May 5, 2010, abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory.
7. The ratios here do not include “unknowns.”
8. It must be cautioned that B’Tselem uses the categories of “target” and “non-target” fatalities, as indicated in the cells of Figure 1. We are assuming, for the purposes of comparison, that the “targets” category gives at least a baseline account of suspected militants, while the “non-target” category represents a high estimate of civilian casualties. It is of course possible that some “non-targets” are in fact “suspected militants,” in which case the Israeli targeting campaign has been more accurate than our ratio suggests. It is impossible, based on the data gathered by B’Tselem to determine exactly how significant this distortion is, and our policy is to resolve grey areas in favor of higher accounts of civilian casualties. It seems extremely unlikely, however, that any distortion would be significant enough to raise a 1.529:1 ratio into the area of a 19.21:1 ratio. Our finding that the CIA campaign appears to be more accurate therefore remains secure.
9. For example, Peter W. Singer, Wired for War: the Robotics Revolution and Conflict in the 21st Century (New York: Penguin Press, 2009), p. 316.

*Fricker/Plaw/Williams Drone Campaign Database
1. Based on data gathered by the Institute for Conflict Management (South Asia Terrorism Portal).
2. Based on B’Tselem Statistics (B'Tselem - Statistics - Fatalities).
3. See, for example, Mark Osiel, The End of Reciprocity (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2009), p. 143; Mary Kaldor, New and Old Wars (Stanford: Stanford University Press, 2001), p. 8. A recent data set, offering an avowedly conservative assessment of civilian deaths in armed conflict around the world, gives a significantly different assessment. Taking Lacina and Gleditsch’s (2005) dataset for battle-deaths as a basis for comparison, Kristina Eck and Lisa Hultman (2007) find that over the 1989-2004 period, battle deaths exceeded deaths form one-sided violence (a rough indicator of civilian casualties) by a ratio of two to one – Kristine Eck and Lisa Hultman, “One-Sided Violence Against Civilians in War: Insights from new Fatality Data,” Journal of Peace Research 44(2), 2007, p. 241; and Bethany Lacina and Nils Gleditsch, “Monitoring Trends in Global Combat: A New Dataset of Battle Deaths,” European Journal of Population 21 (2/3), p. 145-165. Still, even on Eck and Hultman’s conservative estimate, the apparent proportionality of Predator drone strikes exceeds the norm for combatant to civilian proportionality for 1989-2004 by a factor of more than ten to one.
 
Lets keep this ridiculous notion that just because your studying in the 'West' you hold no merit or authority over the subject matter because that quite frankly is silly to say the least.

Not at all. It is legitimate to ask what makes her more of an authority than people actually living in and around the area. Other than her nebulous 'contacts' in the region.

She does not have to deal with the consequences of the drone strikes themselves or the terrorist attacks within Pakistan by people who accuse Pakistan of complicity in the attacks. It is very comfortable to blather away from the comfort of Oslo when tribal elders in the area are saying exactly the opposite.

The Aryana Institute of regional research and advocacy is a well respected organization who have many members from the FATA and Khyber Pakhtukhwa region. Their main office is based in Islamabad and they have ample tools at their resources to get as accurate information as possible. Maybe you should read about them a little bit rather than completely ditching their research without any factual basis of your own.

Just cutting and pasting from their facebook page (their website is nonfunctional) does not prove anything. Who are their principals? What is their publication background, so we can assess their objectivity or bias? There are allegations that the Aryana Institute is a front for Northern Alliance supporters and, given that all their publications are always anti-Pakistan, it is legitimate to examine the background of their principals.

Just because their studies are quoted by western media is meaningless. Pakistan-bashing is a profitable enterprise and there will always be buyers for any anti-Pakistan tripe that is put out by our 'liberals'. In fact, it is a bit of a competition amongst them to come up with the juiciest anti-Pakistan articles to gain western readership.

I can also rent an office and put up a facebook page, and then publish 'studies' conducted through 'researchers' and 'contacts' to advance my agenda.
 
They are 'whores' on both sides, both the liberal fascists who 'whores' themselves to the West and the PPP, as well as those who 'whore' themselves to the terrorists and Khilafat fantasies.

Let me make one thing clear - just as there is no room for posts supportive of religious extremists advocating in favor of violence against the State, there will be no tolerance for liberal fascists advocating/justifying violence against the state through foreign military interventions.

Both sides are traitors and individuals on both sides should be tried for treason.

This thread will be left open for a little while longer for responses, after which it will be deleted.

Some of you think the current title is not appropriate, well I certainly don't see how the last one was.

we dont need USA to tell us what is extremism and what is not we will follow Islam and INSHALLAH and dont care about barking of west and its slaves among Muslims the hypocrates who worship dollars and Khilafat will be implemented because HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW has already told about it and last thing now i tell you the real defination of Liberal Facist
BREAK EVERY LAW OF ALLAH AND HIS PROPHET MUHAMMAD SAW BETRAY THEM CALL THEIR SHARIAT OUTDATED YOU BECOME THE BIGGEST LIBERAL IH SHORT BE A BIGGEST BAGIHRAT YOU WILL CALLED CIVILIZED PERSON IN THE SOCIETY
 
Not at all. It is legitimate to ask what makes her more of an authority than people actually living in and around the area. Other than her nebulous 'contacts' in the region.

Please save us the whole what are the 'sources' or her 'nebulous contacts' argument. Going by this logic no kind of survey or source of information would ever be sufficient for you. No kind of research based analysis would ever convince you. Why not call them up in Islamabad and confirm and question their research methodology. Also again their main office is set in Islamabad not Oslo. I am sure the author was in Pakistan when he/she conducted this research

I can also rent an office and put up a facebook page, and then publish 'studies' conducted through 'researchers' and 'contacts' to advance my agenda.

Please do so as that will be most enlightening. Till than lets listen to those who ACTUALLY DO things. Apparently no source for you is legitimate enough simply because it doesn't adhere to beliefs and opinions you've already hardwired in your brain.

There are allegations that the Aryana Institute is a front for Northern Alliance supporters and, given that all their publications are always anti-Pakistan, it is legitimate to examine the background of their principals.

The Aryana Institute specifically works in the FATA and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa where most of the news and research done is based around terrorism and those affected by terrorism so is it surprising that most stuff coming out is apparently negative? You apparently Discredit Perveiz Hoodbhoy who states facts the way they are regardless of how negative they maybe but for you he's 'Anti-Pakistani'. So any kind of criticism thrown at Pakistan is apparently 'Un-Patriotic' eh?. Perveiz Hoodhboy can easily live in the US or any other place he wants but no he still chooses to live in Pakistan and writes articles about the issues we face to day, but again anything Anti-Pakistan is simply not legitimate for you.

What research would that be if we were to sugar coat facts to present and appease the right wing.

Just because their studies are quoted by western media is meaningless

For the most part the Western Media does a pretty good job of bringing the real picture into light. Sure there are the likes of Fox news and what not which in all honesty isn't even a news organization but other journalists that work for PBS, ABC, BBC and Al Jazeera (Which is not western) do a pretty good job of reporting facts or do you simply discredit anything thats apparently 'western' and only agree with things that you want to hear or those that confirm your belief system?

Pakistan-bashing is a profitable enterprise and there will always be buyers for any anti-Pakistan tripe that is put out by our 'liberals'.

Don't blame liberals if Pakistan is where terrorism is bred and born everyday, don't blame liberals if Maulvi's launch fatwas against people for having opinions, don't blame liberals if a suicide bomber straps a bomb on his chest and blows himself to smithereens taking with him innocent civilians. Don't blame liberals if you have lynch mobs beating on innocent people. Don't blame liberals if you have your government and army officials harbor and save guard terrorists and dont blame liberals when honor killing takes place or when someone is accused for Blasphemy laws.

Trust me when I say this.. Liberals are the LEAST of your problem.

Oh and another thing bashing Pakistan is profitable because Pakistan makes it profitable for itself not the liberals.
 
Please save us the whole what are the 'sources' or her 'nebulous contacts' argument. Going by this logic no kind of survey or source of information would ever be sufficient for you. No kind of research based analysis would ever convince you. Why not call them up in Islamabad and confirm and question their research methodology. Also again their main office is set in Islamabad not Oslo. I am sure the author was in Pakistan when he/she conducted this research

Legitimate organizations publish details of their polling process. Legitimate organizations are up front about their principals, their history, and their funding. They don't put up a meaningless facebook profile with no information.

Please do so as that will be most enlightening. Till than lets listen to those who ACTUALLY DO things. Apparently no source for you is legitimate enough simply because it doesn't adhere to beliefs and opinions you've already hardwired in your brain.

ACTUALLY DO what? Promote their biased propaganda couched as phony 'research'? Once again, public statements from people of the region contradict the 'studies' done by this 'researcher' who has a documented history of anti-Pakistan rants.

The Aryana Institute specifically works in the FATA and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa where most of the news and research done is based around terrorism and those affected by terrorism so is it surprising that most stuff coming out is apparently negative?

The issue of negativity is not about the result of the drone strikes, but the author's insinuation that such strikes are not only justified but welcomed by the victims. The issue of negativity comes in when liberal fascists repeat western propaganda about Pakistan not 'doing enough' despite the fact that we have lost so many people in our fight against these terrorists.

You apparently Discredit Perveiz Hoodbhoy who states facts the way they are regardless of how negative they maybe but for you he's 'Anti-Pakistani'. So any kind of criticism thrown at Pakistan is apparently 'Un-Patriotic' eh?. Perveiz Hoodhboy can easily live in the US or any other place he wants but no he still chooses to live in Pakistan and writes articles about the issues we face to day, but again anything Anti-Pakistan is simply not legitimate for you.

Let me be absolutely clear on this. I cannot express the level of CONTEMPT I have for this worthless piece of trash Hoodbhoy. Not only is he an outright bigot -- he claims Sindhis and Balochis are not patriotic -- he is an intolerant misogynist who judges women by the way they dress. And he is a cheap sellout who will say anything to appear on TV. On Australian TV, he kept ranting on about the issue of Pakistan's nukes falling into Taliban hands even though the host never raised the subject.

What research would that be if we were to sugar coat facts to present and appease the right wing.

And others believe 'research' that appeases the anti-Pakistan crowd. Even when such 'research' contradicts all other known facts about the situation.

For the most part the Western Media does a pretty good job of bringing the real picture into light. Sure there are the likes of Fox news and what not which in all honesty isn't even a news organization but other journalists that work for PBS, ABC, BBC and Al Jazeera (Which is not western) do a pretty good job of reporting facts or do you simply discredit anything thats apparently 'western' and only agree with things that you want to hear or those that confirm your belief system?

Again, that is false. The western media just proved its complicity and subservience in the Raymond Davis affair. They voluntarily withheld information about him at the request of the White House. When the magic words 'national security' come into the picture, the western media is as good as state-controlled. The rampant Islamophobia is promoted by the western media in line with their agenda.

Don't blame liberals if Pakistan is where terrorism is bred and born everyday, don't blame liberals if Maulvi's launch fatwas against people for having opinions, don't blame liberals if a suicide bomber straps a bomb on his chest and blows himself to smithereens taking with him innocent civilians. Don't blame liberals if you have lynch mobs beating on innocent people. Don't blame liberals if you have your government and army officials harbor and save guard terrorists and dont blame liberals when honor killing takes place or when someone is accused for Blasphemy laws.

Perfect example of liberal fascist mindset: it's all about 'you are with us or against us'. There is no middle ground.

The blasphemy law is a perfect example. The mullahs were screaming for death penalties. The liberal fascists were calling for complete repeal of the law. Moderates, including Sherry Rahman and Imran Khan, were calling for amendments to bring the law in line with similar laws in western countries.

Trust me when I say this.. Liberals are the LEAST of your problem.

Liberal fascists are THE main problem for Pakistan because they polarize the debate and make it that much harder for moderates to garner support against the mullahs. It is precisely the liberal fascists who have turned the mullahs into saviors of Islam in the eyes of so many people.

Oh and another thing bashing Pakistan is profitable because Pakistan makes it profitable for itself not the liberals.

That statement makes no sense. Try again.
 

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