Finland's leaders call for NATO membership 'without delay', Russia warns it will 'inflict serious damage'

[jhungary]

Seriously asking that? I mean sweden and finland are at momemt woke defunct democracies which live in bubble of comfortable conditions, they will cose more problems in chain of decisioning then they contribute with their gadgets,usa push them in nato to sell them more toys only
Choosing them over Turkie, Usa woud be left with only pkk amd israel as solid allies in middle east and i doubt that think tankers there are that stupid.
And compaining about sanctions i find it as *** move as hungary, greece, germany and france are all more or less same with that even worse as france propose ukraina to give up some land to appease putin, so get of yoir high horse and clean up the house first before pointing fingers elsewhere.

NATO is not EU, they don't really care about economy or "defunct" democracies. What NATO care about is how they can defend each other, and in this case, Sweden and Finland combine bring them more than Turkey would do. And that is a fact. unless you want to dispute that, then I will need to hear your argument.

On the other hand. As I said, Middle East would be the same with or without turkey, I mean would Egypt, Jordan, Saudi or even moderate like Iraq would bail on NATO if Turkey is not involved? Or would Iran, Syria or Yemen more pronged toward NATO if Turkey is involved??

And finally, you still have not explain why Turkey is important to NATO, other than what you claim "It will only left with PKK and Israel as solid allies in the middle east"

I really try to have a pleasant argument with you, but if you have to choose those kind of language and try to name call me, then I guess we are done here.

 

[mulj]

NATO is not EU, they don't really care about economy or "defunct" democracies. What NATO care about is how they can defend each other, and in this case, Sweden and Finland combine bring them more than Turkey would do. And that is a fact. unless you want to dispute that, then I will need to hear your argument.

On the other hand. As I said, Middle East would be the same with or without turkey, I mean would Egypt, Jordan, Saudi or even moderate like Iraq would bail on NATO if Turkey is not involved? Or would Iran, Syria or Yemen more pronged toward NATO if Turkey is involved??

And finally, you still have not explain why Turkey is important to NATO, other than what you claim "It will only left with PKK and Israel as solid allies in the middle east"

I really try to have a pleasant argument with you, but if you have to choose those kind of language and try to name call me, then I guess we are done here.

Nato is overlapping with EU that is fact and regarding disputing contribution of those two countries with Turkie, i will gladly but first i need to stop laughing.
did not call you personally any name, sorry if you misunderstood something from my side.

 

[BHAN85]

NATO Eastern Flank:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1504486205206933508

Russians can be aggressive but they are human in the end. They have their security concerns but they cannot fight everything out there. Not worth it.

One nuke in every East NATO military base, Russia can afford it.

And if they destroy European American Ballistic Shield, they would be more secure.

NATO missile defense system - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Maybe USA is so aggresive against Russia thanks to that ABM system. Because they know they can stop Russia if WWIII starts.

I think Russia is not afraid about non-Nuclear NATO members. They are afraid about American twisted plans to start WWIII.

Russia always can win easily a war against a non-nuclear state if they use nuclear weapons.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1519763655608479746

https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/media

One says we will go to heaven gladly.

Russia acts desperately as response.

USA in the other hand, make troubles far from their land, they have no need to give money to Ukraine, or make troubles around the world. They act aggresively and without a immediate need.

USA thinks long term and they are secure of can threat Russia without consequences (they will know why).
Russia thinks short term, they make errors, and they are afraid of touch a single meter of NATO land in Poland, meanwhile Poland doesnt stop of sending weapons to Ukraine .

In my opinion European behavior is suicidal and is based in Russia cowardice due to Russia doesnt know what are exactly USA intentions and capabilities in matter of nuclear war. But maybe one day they'll know and Poland/East NATO members/whole europe will regret have made troubles to Russia, because USA won't defend them.

 

[jhungary]

Nato is overlapping with EU that is fact and regarding disputing contribution of those two countries with Turkie, i will gladly but first i need to stop laughing.
did not call you personally any name, sorry if you misunderstood something from my side.

Well, depends, because people in Sweden and Finland would probably can't stop laughing at your post, well, at least my wife did (She's Swede)

As I said, military or economically, Turkey is in no way be able to replace Sweden and Finland, both have steady economy and a mature Military and a lot of military power. I mean sure, if you think they are woke or defunct and all that, that's your opinion.

 

[mulj]

Well, depends, because people in Sweden and Finland would probably can't stop laughing at your post, well, at least my wife did (She's Swede)

As I said, military or economically, Turkey is in no way be able to replace Sweden and Finland, both have steady economy and a mature Military and a lot of military power. I mean sure, if you think they are woke or defunct and all that, that's your opinion.

Well, your wife is not leftie then, read my tweet above....

Might be so but it wont happen is they will be vetoed.

 

[jhungary]

Well, your wife is not leftie then, read my tweet above....

Might be so but it wont happen is they will be vetoed.

Again, as I said, it wouldn't mean anything. because US and EU will be more inclined to lean toward Finland and Sweden, and as I explained, Turkey veto would put Turkey is a very bad position.

 

[Oldman1]

As I said couple of post ago, this will put Turkey in a bad position.

Turkey say no, it will not mean anything with Finland and Sweden, the US and EU will either form another defensive alliance (Like AUSUK) to provide with Finland and Sweden security. Or they are going to offer individual defence pact (actually you only need US security guarantee, you don't need the whole NATO) both of which mean the same as Finland and Sweden joining NATO. The only different is, if EU and US choose to form another alliance, then they will left Turkey behind. Turks are not without its enemy in the region, which will mean they will have to come up with the short change. which is increasingly hard for their economy.

On the other hand, the combine Military Might of Sweden and Finland is about twice the size of Turkey, Turks have 400,000 active + 200,000 reserve + 200,000 conscript, Finland itself have 280,000 active and 900,000 reserve force, Sweden have 60,000 Active and about 200,000 reserve/conscript There are no doubt EU and US will favor more toward Sweden and Finland than Turkey.

Would Turkey wanted to left behind because they hated Sweden and Finland stance on PKK? I think saying "no" do more harm to Turkey then Sweden and Finland.

I think all three countries are beneficial to the alliance no matter what their views are. However, I believe the best way to have Turkey overlook the Sweden stance on PKK as well as Finland involved is in long term bring back the F-35 program involvement which the U.S. kicked Turkey out because of the S-400 choice. Pretty much a good compromise in the long run. Turkey providing military support to Ukraine is something that we shouldn't ignore.

 

[mulj]

Again, as I said, it wouldn't mean anything. because US and EU will be more inclined to lean toward Finland and Sweden, and as I explained, Turkey veto would put Turkey is a very bad position.

It would, does not katter what you said and they are already inclined like you said but that does not mean that Turkie should not protect their national interest and one of those is to prevent entering hostile state like Sweden in same security organization.

 

[jhungary]

It would, does not katter what you said and they are already inclined like you said but that does not mean that Turkie should not protect their national interest and one of those is to prevent entering hostile state like Sweden in same security organization.

Well, as I said, I only comment on fact and fractions. I have no interest on talking about what I think or what you think about Swedish or Turkish government

It's up to Turkish government to decide whether or not they will vote for or against Sweden and Finland joining. As I commented. it would be bad for Turkey to vote no, that does not mean they will vote yes. And neither me or you have any say within Turkish government, so what we think is a moot point.

I think all three countries are beneficial to the alliance no matter what their views are. However, I believe the best way to have Turkey overlook the Sweden stance on PKK as well as Finland involved is in long term bring back the F-35 program involvement which the U.S. kicked Turkey out because of the S-400 choice. Pretty much a good compromise in the long run. Turkey providing military support to Ukraine is something that we shouldn't ignore.

As I said, i only laying out what is at play and what's the alternative.

Alternative is US and EU will not abandon Sweden and Finland in term of security, given if both country drop their neutrality and want to be part of Western Sphere of influence. So if Turkey vetoed. That would mean nothing to that because the US and EU would most likely uses other means to provide security to them.

That may or may not take Turkey out of the equation, and without Russia to lean on, there are no alternative to NATO at the moment, which mean Turkey would be in a bad position if US/EU migrate from NATO in order to protect Sweden and Finland.

And it is a known fact that the West is most likely choose Sweden and Finland over Turkey in defence matter.

I am not saying Turkey should be abandoned, or that we should isolate them, I think talks is important to have them on board, and I don't see how Turkey would actually veto it because there are a lot more to lose to Turkey than they would have gain. Which mean the old stick and carrot tricks would probably the way to go.

As for what the West should dangle in front of Turkey to make it? That's remain to be seen.

 

[mulj]

Well, as I said, I only comment on fact and fractions. I have no interest on talking about what I think or what you think about Swedish or Turkish government

It's up to Turkish government to decide whether or not they will vote for or against Sweden and Finland joining. As I commented. it would be bad for Turkey to vote no, that does not mean they will vote yes. And neither me or you have any say within Turkish government, so what we think is a moot point.

Me to, fact is that Sweden is hostile country to them amd they need to iron first that fact. Nato is community where each member has equal rights and concerns.

Another fact is that it migh be bad for Turkie for opposing that step but it would be devastating for NATO if it split over that thing, they would jeopardize their global position and become pure white boys club, which is nower days hard to sell as good thing.

 

[jhungary]

Me to, fact is that Sweden is hostile country to them amd they need to iron first that fact. Nato is community where each member has equal rights and concerns.

Another fact is that it migh be bad for Turkie for opposing that step but it would be devastating for NATO if it split over that thing, they would jeopardize their global position and become pure white boys club, which is nower days hard to sell as good thing.

Would have agree point 2 if Russia did not invade Ukraine. The problem is, now that they do, that represent a problem more significant than "Equality within NATO Member" it's one thing when everything is fine and dandy and when NATO is a "Take it or leave it" organisation, another thing when there is actually a threat in Europe and whatever NATO said or the value to form with has come true. You would want NATO protection. I mean, if you have to balance National Security or Equality of the organisation. You probably would choose the former over the latter.

Peace Time NATO may be "White Boy club" like you claim, not when there is a war in Europe backyard, and that is why it put Turkey in the back hand, because the white boy are now all afraid of another white boy coming to them with tanks. It take the brown factor out of the equation...

 

[mulj]

Would have agree point 2 if Russia did not invade Ukraine. The problem is, now that they do, that represent a problem more significant than "Equality within NATO Member" it's one thing when everything is fine and dandy and when NATO is a "Take it or leave it" organisation, another thing when there is actually a threat in Europe and whatever NATO said or the value to form with has come true. You would want NATO protection. I mean, if you have to balance National Security or Equality of the organisation. You probably would choose the former over the latter.

Peace Time NATO may be "White Boy club" like you claim, not when there is a war in Europe backyard, and that is why it put Turkey in the back hand, because the white boy are now all afraid of another white boy coming to them with tanks. It take the brown factor out of the equation...

Well, procedurer are written and they should be followed it is not Turkie fault for such.
So if Sweden wants in, they should pay for their dues like everyone else before them.

 

[jhungary]

Well, procedurer are written and they should be followed it is not Turkie fault for such.
So if Sweden wants in, they should pay for their dues like everyone else before them.

Not wanting to say this, but do you really see it that way?

At the end of the day, NATO is a US led organisation. Sure, it was written in the charter that everyone is equal, but you would probably know it by now it probably furthest away from the truth. At the end of the day, NATO depends heavily with US, and what US want usually is what they get.

There are already talks in US Congress to initiate vote on NATO to suspend Turkey membership if Turkey voted no, while I know you think that everyone is equal, but all I can say is, this is probably at the end is a European organisation, they would most likely orientated more to Europe. And if push come to shove, do you believe European will look at Turkey and think "Sure, let's respect what our Turkish friend think" or "To hell with it and let's bend the rules and let Sweden and Finland join?"

I will have say, it is more likely the latter is going to happen then the former......

 

[mulj]

Not wanting to say this, but do you really see it that way?

At the end of the day, NATO is a US led organisation. Sure, it was written in the charter that everyone is equal, but you would probably know it by now it probably furthest away from the truth. At the end of the day, NATO depends heavily with US, and what US want usually is what they get.

There are already talks in US Congress to initiate vote on NATO to suspend Turkey membership if Turkey voted no, while I know you think that everyone is equal, but all I can say is, this is probably at the end is a European organisation, they would most likely orientated more to Europe. And if push come to shove, do you believe European will look at Turkey and think "Sure, let's respect what our Turkish friend think" or "To hell with it and let's bend the rules and let Sweden and Finland join?"

I will have say, it is more likely the latter is going to happen then the former......

I am seeimg it trough real politic lences, no doubt that it is US lead organisation and that they are dictating things in it but as any organisation it is not linear entity and there are members with their own agendas and aspirations based on their own strenght amd this situation with Sweden and necessity of it is perfect opportunity for Turkie to squise as much as possible from it which is most realistic thing to expect, thinking opposite i would say is naive.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Russia is going to jack about Finland and Sweden joining nato. The russian military has shown to be a paper tiger. All talk. Nothing more. The russian military talks big but can do jack s**t in real life as the ukraine war has shown.