Genocide in Kashmir - India's shame.

[BHarwana]

20 hours have passed and Shopian still under siege by Indian army. India killed 3 teenagers and announced that they have killed the commander and vice commander of AGH an off shoot of AlQaida in kashmir but the commander of Al Qaida has already issued a statement that they were not in the area even. India tired to hide its atrocities in Shopian under the pretext of counter terrorism. India has so far killed 3 teenagers there and a woman lost her both legs after being shot by Indian army.

 

[Champion_Usmani]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1262741895685398535

 

[FuturePAF]

Someone compiled a list of some of the atrocities committed by the Indian which are why the Kashmiris demand Azaadi.

mid you click on the post you get the accounts including units that carried out the acts

https://twitter.com/x/status/1271442169778155528

 

[Mugwop]

Who are you trying to shame? These people take pride in murdering innocent people.

 

[PanzerKiel]

IOK police charge army officer with killing three labourers in staged gunfight


Police in Indian-occupied Kashmir (IOK) on Saturday charged a captain of the Indian army and his two accomplices for killing three local labourers and passing them as militants.

In a charge sheet filed in a local court, police said the captain had staged a gunfight in South Kashmir on July 8 to make it appear like a clash with militants.

A special investigation team of Jammu and Kashmir Police, which was tasked to probe the fake encounter, filed a 300-page charge sheet against the army officer.

Wajahat Hussian, deputy superintendent of police who headed the probe committee, was quoted by local media as saying that the charge sheet has been filed against three persons in the Principal and Sessions Court Shopain area in South Kashmir.

He identified the accused as Capitan Bhupinder of 62 Rashtriya Rifles and Tabish Ahmad and Bilal Ahmad, residents of South Kashmir's Shopain and Pulwama districts respectively.

On Thursday, the army had said that the process of summary of evidence has been completed about the fake encounter in which three labourers of Rajouri district of Jammu region were killed.

The army added that the authorities concerned, along with legal advisers, are examining the case for further proceedings.

Earlier, the family had identified the deceased men as Imtiyaz Ahmad, 21, Abrar Ahmad, 25, and Abrar Khatana, 18, from photos that circulated on social media after the gunfight.

Seventy days later, the bodies of the slain young men were handed to their families after DNA samples matched with their kin.

Indian army probe
On Sept 18, the Indian military admitted wrongdoing and said its internal probe identified the three men killed as local residents, without explaining how the military had identified them. It also said an army investigation showed the soldiers had exceeded the powers granted to them under the Armed Forces Special Powers Act.

Pakistan had subsequently called for a judicial inquiry into the killings, terming the Indian army's statement an "acknowledgement that Indian occupation forces are guilty of war crimes in IIOJK (Indian Illegally Occupied Jammu and Kashmir)".

The Armed Forces Special Powers Act gives the Indian military in Occupied Kashmir sweeping powers to search, seize and even shoot suspects on sight without fear of prosecution. Under the Act, local authorities need federal approval to prosecute army or paramilitary soldiers in civilian courts.

IOK police charge army officer with killing three labourers in staged gunfight

Charge sheet states the Indian army captain had killed the three labourers in a staged gunfight and passed them as militants.

www.dawn.com

 

[R Wing]

IOK police charge army officer with killing three labourers in staged gunfight


Police in Indian-occupied Kashmir (IOK) on Saturday charged a captain of the Indian army and his two accomplices for killing three local labourers and passing them as militants.

In a charge sheet filed in a local court, police said the captain had staged a gunfight in South Kashmir on July 8 to make it appear like a clash with militants.

A special investigation team of Jammu and Kashmir Police, which was tasked to probe the fake encounter, filed a 300-page charge sheet against the army officer.

Wajahat Hussian, deputy superintendent of police who headed the probe committee, was quoted by local media as saying that the charge sheet has been filed against three persons in the Principal and Sessions Court Shopain area in South Kashmir.

He identified the accused as Capitan Bhupinder of 62 Rashtriya Rifles and Tabish Ahmad and Bilal Ahmad, residents of South Kashmir's Shopain and Pulwama districts respectively.

On Thursday, the army had said that the process of summary of evidence has been completed about the fake encounter in which three labourers of Rajouri district of Jammu region were killed.

The army added that the authorities concerned, along with legal advisers, are examining the case for further proceedings.

Earlier, the family had identified the deceased men as Imtiyaz Ahmad, 21, Abrar Ahmad, 25, and Abrar Khatana, 18, from photos that circulated on social media after the gunfight.

Seventy days later, the bodies of the slain young men were handed to their families after DNA samples matched with their kin.

Indian army probe
On Sept 18, the Indian military admitted wrongdoing and said its internal probe identified the three men killed as local residents, without explaining how the military had identified them. It also said an army investigation showed the soldiers had exceeded the powers granted to them under the Armed Forces Special Powers Act.

Pakistan had subsequently called for a judicial inquiry into the killings, terming the Indian army's statement an "acknowledgement that Indian occupation forces are guilty of war crimes in IIOJK (Indian Illegally Occupied Jammu and Kashmir)".

The Armed Forces Special Powers Act gives the Indian military in Occupied Kashmir sweeping powers to search, seize and even shoot suspects on sight without fear of prosecution. Under the Act, local authorities need federal approval to prosecute army or paramilitary soldiers in civilian courts.

IOK police charge army officer with killing three labourers in staged gunfight

Charge sheet states the Indian army captain had killed the three labourers in a staged gunfight and passed them as militants.

www.dawn.com

The real "shame" (referencing the title of this thread) is that the Pak Govt and Armed Forces (inc the intel apparatus) has largely abandoned IOK due to a highly defensive and frankly inexcusable posture.

There are dozens of offensive options other than all-out war/invasion. The whole point of a clandestine offensive UW capability is that it can be used when deniability is desired. But, of course, all we get are childish excuses. They say every day is a fight between the right way and the easy way. We seem hell-bent on taking the easy way.

Economic difficulties and FATF-like tools (American sanctions) did not deter us from our nuclear program (considered crucial for our security) yet these excuses are used throughout ISB and RWP today to justify an unjustifiable lack of action in support of the moral and righteous Kashmiri resistance fighting against an illegal military occupation.

Renaming streets in our capital and releasing cringe-worthy jingles while letting innocent men, women and children die and disappear in the occupied territory just adds insult to injury.

Your thoughts?

@Horus @Areesh

 

[PanzerKiel]

Economic difficulties and FATF-like tools (American sanctions) did not deter us from our nuclear program (considered crucial for our security) yet these excuses are used throughout ISB and RWP today to justify an unjustifiable lack of action in support of the moral and righteous Kashmiri resistance fighting against an illegal military occupation.

@Horus @Areesh

What if these excuses are only for the sake of excuses... what if the apparent lack of action is intentional even though lot might be happening on ground.....what if our aims regarding IOK are still there, but maybe a completely new line of action has been choosen to achieve those.

I live on hope and optimism.

 

[R Wing]

What if these excuses are only for the sake of excuses... what if the apparent lack of action is intentional even though lot might be happening on ground.....what if our aims regarding IOK are still there, but maybe a completely new line of action has been choosen to achieve those.

I live on hope and optimism.

If, throughout history, GHQ had demonstrated decision making that was always in the long-term interest of the country and in protecting its sovereignty (including IOK) and honor, I would certainly have as much hope as you!

But, you're right --- we must hope against hope, as that's the only way to expect and effect change.

Thanks for your response. Highly appreciated.

 

[PanzerKiel]

If, throughout history, GHQ had demonstrated decision making that was always in the long-term interest of the country and in protecting its sovereignty (including IOK) and honor, I would certainly have as much hope as you!

But, you're right --- we must hope against hope, as that's the only way to expect and effect change.

Thanks for your response. Highly appreciated.

It has to be accepted that decision making has been bad at times....but then it has been MOSTLY good as well. As highlighted on several other threads as well, there is a reason that Pakistan as a country is still there on the face of the earth.

Threats we have faced, and are still facing, have been of a varied nature....starting from conventional threats from India (across all domain, land, sea, air), sub-conventional threats from Afghanistan, terror proxies fighting on behalf on India, Afghanistan and several other Western Powers, several forms of threats (conventional / sub conventional / un-conventional) to our nuclear assets...sectarian issues.....i mean you name any threat and that threat has been tackled or is being tackled by us....

Not many countries have managed to survive facing such a multitude of threats over a period of more than 70 years......

Again, where some bad decisions were taken, there were several good decisions as well due to which Pakistan is kicking...

....taking a bad decision is not a bad thing....we humans do make mistakes....all countries make mistakes in their policies, doctrines, tactics......its something human.....

...in my opinion, indecisiveness is VERY DANGEROUS......better to take a bad decision, develop the situation and do course correction as you move, that increases the success probability......instead of taking no decision at all and getting defeated in detail....

GHQ is a man made system....only Allah's system is 100%....rest all man-made systems have loopholes, lacunas, room for mistakes......inititally GHQ made mistakes (1948-71) because of speedy promotions, therefore officers were not really qualified for their job (Ayub Khan rose from Lt Col to C in C in 5 years).....but those were desperate times....desperate measures.....
....later, officers became better qualified for their jobs....but even then, they still make mistakes, and they will continue to do so.....like in other nations as well...dangerous thing is not learning form mistakes....slow learning cycle.....

 

[R Wing]

It has to be accepted that decision making has been bad at times....but then it has been MOSTLY good as well. As highlighted on several other threads as well, there is a reason that Pakistan as a country is still there on the face of the earth.

Threats we have faced, and are still facing, have been of a varied nature....starting from conventional threats from India (across all domain, land, sea, air), sub-conventional threats from Afghanistan, terror proxies fighting on behalf on India, Afghanistan and several other Western Powers, several forms of threats (conventional / sub conventional / un-conventional) to our nuclear assets...sectarian issues.....i mean you name any threat and that threat has been tackled or is being tackled by us....

Not many countries have managed to survive facing such a multitude of threats over a period of more than 70 years......

Again, where some bad decisions were taken, there were several good decisions as well due to which Pakistan is kicking...

....taking a bad decision is not a bad thing....we humans do make mistakes....all countries make mistakes in their policies, doctrines, tactics......its something human.....

...in my opinion, indecisiveness is VERY DANGEROUS......better to take a bad decision, develop the situation and do course correction as you move, that increases the success probability......instead of taking no decision at all and getting defeated in detail....

GHQ is a man made system....only Allah's system is 100%....rest all man-made systems have loopholes, lacunas, room for mistakes......inititally GHQ made mistakes (1948-71) because of speedy promotions, therefore officers were not really qualified for their job (Ayub Khan rose from Lt Col to C in C in 5 years).....but those were desperate times....desperate measures.....
....later, officers became better qualified for their jobs....but even then, they still make mistakes, and they will continue to do so.....like in other nations as well...dangerous thing is not learning form mistakes....slow learning cycle.....

Absolutely agree with you.

Our politicians really didn't help either (to put it mildly.)

I think the main problem is not tactical or operational --- I'd say we're actually world-class at this level of activity.

What concerns me is a strategy that relies too heavily on the footsoldiers and local commanders of terrorist outfits without having any intention or means of dealing with the source. If a factory is creating mindless clones (Baloch mercenary-terrorists, for example), should the strategy be to waste precious blood and treasure on fighting these clones --- or perhaps it would be more prudent to attack the source that is providing arms, money, logistical support, cyber support, etc?

Even a child understands the basics of deterrence theory. Without raising the cost for R&AW officers specifically and personally, and for the Govt of India in general, there is no way out of this quagmire.

I only have one question: what are we doing to raise the cost for India in terms of Baloch terrorism and the illegal occupation/annexation of IOK?

Diplomatic offenses are largely a joke. The world already knows exactly what India is doing (esp Western intel agencies) --- they don't need to be told. Plus, we know where their long-term interests (arms sales, investments to counter China, etc.) Finally, this diplomatic stuff is essentially a political maneuver --- what is the purpose of spec ops trained to operate deep behind enemy lines, intel black ops trained for offensive covert action, deniable proxies, etc., if they're just going to stand around and do nothing against enemies outside our borders?! The entire purpose of a capable offensive intel outfit is that it can give you deniable UW options when conventional action is not really possible. Either such outfits should justify the reason for their existence by demonstrating their capability (and WILL) or send funds to some other more deserving setup!

Please note I am talking specifically about taking the fight to the enemy. I am well aware of the exceptional achievements and sacrifices made in the CT domain... however, all will be for naught if we don't have a greater strategy to take full benefit of these operational victories.

 

[PanzerKiel]

I only have one question: what are we doing to raise the cost for India in terms of Baloch terrorism and the illegal occupation/annexation of IOK?

Dear, seems like you missed multiple news of RAW officers vanishing in different parts of this small world....they have been out of contact for some time now....Allah jaanay kidher chaley gaye hain....

Diplomatic offenses are largely a joke. The world already knows exactly what India is doing (esp Western intel agencies) --- they don't need to be told. Plus, we know where their long-term interests (arms sales, investments to counter China, etc.) Finally, this diplomatic stuff is essentially a political maneuver --- what is the purpose of spec ops trained to operate deep behind enemy lines, intel black ops trained for offensive covert action, deniable proxies, etc., if they're just going to stand around and do nothing against enemies outside our borders?! The entire purpose of a capable offensive intel outfit is that it can give you deniable UW options when conventional action is not really possible. Either such outfits should justify the reason for their existence by demonstrating their capability (and WILL) or send funds to some other more deserving setup!

Please note I am talking specifically about taking the fight to the enemy. I am well aware of the exceptional achievements and sacrifices made in the CT domain... however, all will be for naught if we don't have a greater strategy to take full benefit of these operational victories.

These things, efforts, both cis and trans-frontier are already in full swing for some time now....problem is that the nature of such actions dictates that they are not highlighted at any forum. Now, once you do something nasty with them, response always comes, sometimes its thwarted, sometimes they manage to get through....

....personally i believe that till the time our civilians are safe, till the time we dont see the situation like a decade ago when a bombing every Friday was a norm.....i'm comfortable with that...of course that means that our LEAs have to then face the brunt and suffer casualties....but then, thats what we are paid for, trained for and thats we'll die for....

 

[R Wing]

Dear, seems like you missed multiple news of RAW officers vanishing in different parts of this small world....they have been out of contact for some time now....Allah jaanay kidher chaley gaye hain....



These things, efforts, both cis and trans-frontier are already in full swing for some time now....problem is that the nature of such actions dictates that they are not highlighted at any forum. Now, once you do something nasty with them, response always comes, sometimes its thwarted, sometimes they manage to get through....

....personally i believe that till the time our civilians are safe, till the time we dont see the situation like a decade ago when a bombing every Friday was a norm.....i'm comfortable with that...of course that means that our LEAs have to then face the brunt and suffer casualties....but then, thats what we are paid for, trained for and thats we'll die for....

I salute your efforts and bravery --- and also the time you have been taking out to respond.

I agree with you. I just think that to keep our civilians safe, the best bet is to go on an (clandestine/covert) offensive the likes of which Pakistan hasn't seen in decades. Of course, it'll take some capacity building --- but also the political will (both at GHQ and the PMO) to actually accept the risk involved in such ops.

FATF and other things are problems to circumvent --- not excuses to not do what's necessary. Hope you get what I'm trying to say.

Stay safe!!! GODSPEED.