IAF lost 152 pilots, 534 aircraft, in crashes in past 30 years

[Windjammer]

Forget the MiG-21.....IAF has also managed to crash Four squadrons of Jaguars (Around 60 aircraft) without them once firing in anger....The Jaguar as most of you know is a twin engine jet....meaning that extra safety.....but its well documented that IAF pilots are known to pull the ejection at first sign of an emergency.

 

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Simple facts, which I know most people neither will read nor bother to understand.

Attrition is measured on the basis of number of accidents per 10,000 hours of flying. On that basis, the IAF attrition rate was actually BETTER than that of the PAF between 1991-1998. This was written about and discussed on forums like Keypublishing which was a great source of data with people from all over the world discussing combat flying.

The following figures were given by Air Marshal (Retd.) Ayaz Ahmad Khan in a Pakistan Institute of Air Defence Studies (PIADS) article.

Annual Attrition Rates – Pakistan Air Force (expressed per 10,000 hours)​

Year​	1991/92​	1992/93​	1993/94​	1994/95​	1995/96​	1996/97​	1997/98​
Attrition Rate​	1.89​	1.11​	1.41​	1.23​	1.32​	1.25​	1.40​

During this period, between 1991-1998, the average attrition rate of the PAF was 1.36 accidents per 10,000 hours of flying.
The same figure for the IAF between 1991-1998 was 1.06 accidents per 10,000 hours of flying.

The figures for the number of hours flown for the IAF was given by India's Comptroller and Auditor General's office.

1. IAF Total Flying Hours between 1991/92-1997/98: 1,836,875 hours
2. IAF Aircrafts lost between the same period = 194 (This includes crashes as well as write offs)

Therefore, IAF attrition rate was 1.06 per 10,000 flying hours between the same period of 1991-1998

It's simple maths, but this forum doesn't like simple maths mostly and loves propaganda. But propaganda does little except to fool gullible folks who don't matter in the real world.

The more you fly, the higher the odds that you'll have more crashes in terms of sheer numbers of crashes. But the important statistic is how often you crash, per 10,000 hours of flying you do.

And as the number of MiG-21s have come down in the IAF, so has the number of crashes. 2022 has been an exceptional year for the IAF with only 1 MiG-21UM crash on 29 July 2022. Compared to that, the PAF has had 2 crashes this year,

March 22 - Trainer crash in Peshawar, 2 pilots killed
May 25 - FT-7 crash near Wanda Sher Khelanwala, Mianwali, pilot ejected safely

There is so much to counter but will just save my time focusing on your last statistics.
March 22 crash was of army aviation training flight not of PAF. If you want to add numbers of sister forces, let's also talk of IN Mig29K that crashed on 12 Oct 2022 near Goa.

 

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On that basis, the IAF attrition rate was actually BETTER than that of the PAF between 1991-1998.

Are you mentioning the period when Pakistani military was highly dependent on Western Equipment but was under sanctions specially the Pressler amendment from 1992 till early 2000s? While India which had Soviet military equipment and was under sanctions only after 1998?

No. 34 k is too low considering East Pakistan was half of Pakistan in 1971.

Even Raj Hindustani won't be that stupid to keep such a low number of force in such a big area.

Once tensions started rising in 1970, corridors weren't shut off. They were only shut off during the war.


Do you have any proper source (not a Pakistani general shout) to back your claim ?

if you think 34k is too low because of BD size, then please tell how many PAF squadrons were present in BD in 1971 when war broke out considering BD was half Pakistan's size?

And 90k in above article means armymen.

How so?

 

[VkdIndian]

There is so much to counter but will just save my time focusing on your last statistics.

You also think that absolute numbers can be compared? And it is not the rate that should be compared?

 

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You also think that absolute numbers can be compared? And it is not the rate that should be compared?

I actually believe rate is a better pick. However, I also think the the 1990s was a very sanctioned period for Pakistan both economically and the heavily foreign dependent militarily too. Thus, a different set of data would be better.

 

[VkdIndian]

However, I also think the the 1990s was a very sanctioned period for Pakistan both economically and the heavily foreign dependent militarily too. Thus, a different set of data would be better.

That is the next stage of analysis.
When the rates are analysed and the numbers look bad, then additional factors that you quoted would be considered for their impact on the numbers.

India has had it’s fair share of issues too. Russian equipment has it’s own factors. After breakdown of USSR, the supply chain of spares was severely impacted.

There is no reason to believe that basic numbers of professional Air Forces would be too much apart. Richer nations are able to upgrade to more modern aircraft faster, giving them an edge. This would reflect in their numbers which are likely to be better.

This thread though gives an impression that heavens have fallen only in India.

 

[PradoTLC]

They have lost 1000 in 40 years.

1,000 aircraft lost by IAF in crashes since 70s | Brahmand News

Most of the accidents have involved the MiG series aircraft which are on their way out of service and are planned to be phased out in next four to five years.

www.brahmand.com

IAF has lost 999 planes in crashes since 1970

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has lost 999 aircraft in crashes since 1970 and 39 percent of these accidents occurred due to pilot error, a parliamentary panel was informed by the defense ministry.

stratpost.com

I don’t know why need to buy expensive planes against the Indians..


They do a great job of self destruction

 

[Enthusiast]

IAF lost 152 pilots, 534 aircraft, in crashes in past 30 years​

Data shared by aviation expert Anchit Gupta shows there were 20-30 accidents that resulted in aircraft loss for most of 1990s, 10-20 in 2000s & between single & double figures till this year.​

RAGHAV BIKHCHANDANI
30 July, 2022 07:43 pm IST

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File photo of MiG-21 Bison aircraft | ANI
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New Delhi: At least 152 Indian Air Force pilots and 534 aircraft have been lost to accidents and crashes over the past 30 years or so, research conducted by aviation expert Anchit Gupta has revealed.
Gupta posted tabulated information of his findings on Twitter Saturday, citing information from Parliament’s question and answer archives, dating back to 1989-90. He also added the caveat that his findings do not reflect in-depth data of the Air Force.
“This is a crude summary. Yes, it lacks many variables such as flying hours, a/c type etc but the trend is clear — DOWNWARD,” Gupta tweeted, noting that number of accidents have slowly come down.
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According to the data shared by Gupta, the number of accidents that resulted in loss of aircraft were between 20 and 30 for the majority of the 1990s, 10 and 20 through the 2000s and between single and double figures until this year.
The downward spiral revealed by Gupta’s findings comes after years of concerns expressed over the safety of Soviet-era MiG-21 aircraft operated by the IAF. The aircraft has often been labelled a “flying coffin”, to the chagrin of many IAF personnel who have continued to swear by it, despite the fact that the aircraft would have ideally been retired long ago had its replacements come.
The most recent incident involving a MiG-21 took place Thursday night, as a twin-seater MiG-21 trainer aircraft crashed near Barmer in Rajasthan, killing both the pilots on board — wing commander M. Rana and flight lieutenant Advitiya Bal.
The MiG-21 Bison was also at the centre of a deadly crash in May 2021, which killed squadron leader Abhinav Choudhary, and a crash in March that year which claimed the life of group captain Ashish Gupta.

---

Also read: Why likely €1 bn French deal is a reminder of India’s failure to build indigenous jet engine

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Phasing out MiG-21s​

In 2013, a news report had quoted Defence Minister A. K. Antony as saying that till April of the previous year, the IAF had lost more than half of its MiG-21s. As many as 482 MiG-21s had been involved in accidents and as many as 171 pilots, 39 civilians and eight persons from other services lost their lives in these accidents

In light of these defects, India has had a long gestating project in place to phase out MiG-21s, with the indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas in the late 1980’s to replace the MiG 21s.
After decades of delays due to production issues, the IAF now has 40 of the initial lot of Tejas. Last year, the IAF signed a Rs 48,000-crore deal for 83 Tejas Mk 1A, deliveries.
As of now there are four squadrons of the upgraded MiG 21 Bison, one of which will be phased out later this year. The rest will be phased out by 2025 when the Tejas will start coming in.
(Edited by Poulomi Banerjee)

IAF lost 152 pilots, 534 aircraft, in crashes in past 30 years

Data shared by aviation expert Anchit Gupta shows there were 20-30 accidents that resulted in aircraft loss for most of 1990s, 10-20 in 2000s & between single & double figures till this year.

theprint.in

Indian Air FOrce is just pathetic

 

[MirageBlue]

Are you mentioning the period when Pakistani military was highly dependent on Western Equipment but was under sanctions specially the Pressler amendment from 1992 till early 2000s? While India which had Soviet military equipment and was under sanctions only after 1998?

if you think 34k is too low because of BD size, then please tell how many PAF squadrons were present in BD in 1971 when war broke out considering BD was half Pakistan's size?


How so?

If you look at the PAF's attrition between that period, while a significant number of F-16s crashed, there was also quite a few of the A-5, F-6, F-7 and Mirage variants. That wasn't due to the effect of US sanctions, which affected the availability of the F-16 fleet.

Basically the MiG-21 and the Chinese variants based on the MiG-17 and 21 were not so reliable as later generations of fighters. But the IAF flew far more of the MiG series than almost any other air force and consequently had it's share of attrition.

For e.g. the MiG-23BN strike fighter was notorious for having the worst attrition rate in the IAF, and it was retired from the IAF much earlier than the MiG-27 or the MiG-21.

Just look at the data of how many F-6s the PAF crashed within the period of April 1989 to February 1990! 5 F-6s crashed within 1 year! That year also included an F-16A on 4-Sep-1989.

15-FEB-1990	Shenyang F-6		Pakistan Air Force	0			w/o
06-FEB-1990	Shenyang F-6		Pakistan Air Force	0			w/o
05-OCT-1989	Shenyang F-6 (MiG-19S)		Pakistan Air Force	0			w/o
04-SEP-1989	General Dynamics F-16A Fighting Falcon	84712	Pakistan Air Force	1	near Sarghoda, Punjab		w/o
25-AUG-1989	Fokker F-27 Friendship 200	AP-BBF	PIA	54	Himalaya Mountains		mis
08-JUL-1989	Shenyang F-6 (MiG-19S)		Pakistan Air Force	0			w/o
19-APR-1989	Shenyang F-6		Pakistan Air Force	0			w/o

And look at the data till 1997..just check the number of F-16s that crashed, but also the Mirages and other types

PAF crashes database

Just because media in India sensationalizes the crashes of fighters in the IAF, especially the MiG-21, doesn't mean that other air forces don't have their own share of it.

As I had mentioned earlier, the PAF had a WORSE attrition rate than the IAF per 10,000 hours for an entire decade for which we have data on flying hours.

 

[MirageBlue]

There is so much to counter but will just save my time focusing on your last statistics.
March 22 crash was of army aviation training flight not of PAF. If you want to add numbers of sister forces, let's also talk of IN Mig29K that crashed on 12 Oct 2022 near Goa.

That's a good counter. Yes, the March 22 crash was that of a Super Mushak and as it turns out it was that of the PAA.

If we leave that out, then the IAF and PAF have had a similar number of crashes (1 number) for 2022. And the IAF basically flies a MUCH higher number of sorties and has a MUCH higher number of flying hours overall given how many more fighters, trainers and transports it has overall.

I won't add the figures for the Indian Navy into the mix since it flies a significantly large number of fighters, trainers and transports of it's own. Add that number to the IAF and the number of crashes per 10,000 hours of flying for the IAF and IN combined will only become even better than that of the PAF.

Just to give you an idea- the Indian Navy's P-8I fleet has crossed 35,000 flying hours in January 2022, having entered service in 2013.

Link

Serving as a key part of the Indian Navy’s fleet, the P-8I has crossed 35,000 flight hours since its induction in 2013.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Wikipedia has a list for last 3 years:-

List of accidents and incidents involving military aircraft (2020–present) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

India: 18 losses, Pakistan: 17 losses.

Pakistan ke losses attached hai:-


Even China and US ke bahut crashes hai online.

It's normal to have crashes like this.

Faltu badnam mat karo India ko.

View attachment 907704View attachment 907705View attachment 907706View attachment 907707



Bangladesh ki population kya hai ?
It is 20 crore appx.

1971 m 7 crore thi which is 70 million.

You mean there were less than 20 k armymen in 1971 ?

Highly unlikely.

Even today, Bangladesh has 230,000 army men. Which does not include reserves btw.

Itne (93 k) army m to honge 1971 m. Kya baat kar rhe ho.

Basically as a dumb fuk would, you are comparing IAF fighter jet crashs vs all crashes of non combat, fixed and non fixed win and chopper crashes of all Pak Mil services, i.e: PAA, PAF and PN.

This is just your armys chopper crashes in last 5 years till oct 2022.. and it has crashed more since.

Military has lost 50 personnel in air crashes in 5 years | India News - Times of India

India News: NEW DELHI: Military aviation is innately risky with pilots often pushing their fighters, aircraft and helicopters to the limits to practise combat man.

m.timesofindia.com

Another army chopper crash on the same same day the article came out

Pilots sent Mayday call moments before Indian Army helicopter crash

Moments before the Indian Army aviation helicopter crash on Friday morning near Tuting in Arunachal Pradesh, pilots had given a ‘Mayday’ call.

www.tribuneindia.com

 

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Just look at the data of how many F-6s the PAF crashed within the period of April 1989 to February 1990! 5 F-6s crashed within 1 year! That year also included an F-16A on 4-Sep-1989.

Unlike Soviet aircraft which were marvels of Soviet might, We all know China's rise and modernization began in 1990s. So aircraft procured from China before this century were not exactly state of the art or even comparable to Western or Soviet Era fighter jets.
While India mostly flew aircraft in peace time, Pakistan did not have that luxury and it's inventory saw active fights throughout the 80s which did stress it's air frames a lot. Pakistan defence budget was also dependent upon military assistance from the West.
There is a major difference of flying in peace time and during conflicts.
But just to see How well Pakistan managed to keep low toll of crashes of F-16, i.e after 1994, The next crash was after 15 yrs in 2009 and then the unfortunate incident of CFIT in 2020 after a gap of 11 yrs.

Pakistan does have a better training program and thus we see less incidents of Western aircrafts which we all know have a better built quality. From the new C-130J crash to the emergency landing of Apache Ah-64.

Pakistan also do not have twin engine aircrafts unlike IAF which despite having more probability of survival, faced many crashes be it the old Jaguars or the Raptor of the East, first hand Su 30 MKIs.

The comparison is futile when one air force is actively operating under war conditions such as WoT and in the 80s, Afghan Jihad.

In recent times, we should compare the crashes after 26 Feb 2019 to get a better idea of current readiness of our Air forces as both would be at heightened activity.

 

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F-6s

 

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IAF has been given $ 6.22 billions (514.85 INR Billions) vs PAF $ 1.427 Billions (323.7 PKR Billions) for 2022-23. IAF had 31 Squadrons vs PAF's 22.

 

[Windjammer]

All of PAF's combat aircraft are single engine while most of IAF front line are twin engine Jets, which gives more reliability thus navys around the globe tend to deploy twin engines on the carriers. single engines operating over water will have no to little chance of recovery if it suffered a malfunction where as a dual engine gives you the assurance of a second engine. However despite fielding some of the top jets in large numbers from both West and East, can the IAF claim such an achievement.

F-16.net - The ultimate F-16, F-35 and F-22 reference

A three-member delegation of Pratt & Whitney called on Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, Chief of the Air Staff Pakistan Air Force at Air Headquarters to present a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.

www.f-16.net