JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 1]

[z9-ec]

Which part of my post indicate that I have an Indian background?. I am giving you a neutral view that the changes could be done by anyone. As I have said, it could be anyone unless you can prove to me it is an Indians doing.

Let's not jump to conclusions here, let's be logical here.



You have your right to assume it is an Indians doing, but don't use this assumption as a fact.

Before, the Tejas was classified as a 4.5 generation fighter, now it is a 4th generation. Can we assume it is a Pakistani's doing?.

With all due respect, I have fought on Wikipedia for years (member since 2004) Here's an example of a debate I once had with an Indian member.

Further more, Wikipedia is free for all. Anyone could edit it without restrictions but, members have the ability to revert, monitor and contain vandalism or misconception in accordance to Wikipedia policies.

 

[Black Stone]

With all due respect, I have fought on Wikipedia for years (member since 2004) Here's an example of a debate I once had with an Indian member.

Wikipedia is open to everyone and different people can edit it. Whatever the changes may be, being it right/wrong or agree/disagree. My point is that this could be done by anyone, not necessary an Indian.

Actually, this kind of mentality to auto assume any negative changes to Pakistan's military to be an Indian's doing and vice versa only gives opportunity to 3rd parties to take advantage of this situation.

 

[z9-ec]

Wikipedia is open to everyone and different people can edit it. Whatever the changes may be, being it right/wrong or agree/disagree. My point is that this could be done by anyone, not necessary an Indian.

Actually, this kind of mentality to auto assume any negative changes to Pakistan's military to be an Indian's doing and vice versa only gives opportunity to 3rd parties to take advantage of this situation.

Indeed, you are right. Having said that, there's dominance of one point of view on Wikipedia that is being imposed by one segment of members representing a rival country which violates wikipedia's NPOV policy. Prime example of what I'm talking about.

Therefore, it is quite important for us to participate in such a manner.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Which part of my post indicate that I have an Indian background?. I am giving you a neutral view that the changes could be done by anyone. As I have said, it could be anyone unless you can prove to me it is an Indians doing.

trying to cover up somebody's dirty work is not being neutral.

Before, the Tejas was classified as a 4.5 generation fighter, now it is a 4th generation. Can we assume it is a Pakistani's doing?.

well i dont see it on wikipeida.
even if LCA is classified as 4th generation now, its not wrong. at least the first 80 LCA are not close to 4.5 generation fighter!

 

[Black Stone]

trying to cover up somebody's dirty work is not being neutral.

If you read what I have written you will see that I am not covering for anyone or their dirty work. I am only stating the point that anyone could edit the pages on wikipedia, not necessary an Indian. Please digest this.

well i dont see it on wikipeida.
even if LCA is classified as 4th generation now, its not wrong. at least the first 80 LCA are not close to 4.5 generation fighter!

I am not saying whether the Tejas classification of being a 4th or 4.5th generation fighter is right or wrong. The point I was making was if we apply your assumption in this situation, that it was changed from 4.5th to a 4th generation, can we also assume it was done by an Pakistani?.

Do you understand what I am trying to indicate here?.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I am not saying whether the Tejas classification of being a 4th or 4.5th generation fighter is right or wrong. The point I was making was if we apply your assumption in this situation, that it was changed from 4.5th to a 4th generation, can we also assume it was done by an Pakistani?.

Do you understand what I am trying to indicate here?.

The LCA is a 4th generation fighter so even if some pakistani corrected its classification from 4.5 gen to 4th on wikipedia i dont think its wrong. but if some one deliberately degrades some classification thats really really wrong! you must know by now that indians have real problem with satisfying their ego. you will find that out on youtube and both india and pakistanis are heavy users of youtube.

 

[Black Stone]

The LCA is a 4th generation fighter so even if some pakistani corrected its classification from 4.5 gen to 4th on wikipedia i dont think its wrong. but if some one deliberately degrades some classification thats really really wrong! you must know by now that indians have real problem with satisfying with their ego. you will find that out on youtube and both india and pakistanis are heavy users of youtube.

I understand what you are saying, but you don't understand what I am saying.

I don't care about Pakistani and Indian members killing each other on this forum about the classification of fighter jets.

I am simply making a point that any changes on the wikipedia website can be done by anyone, not necessary an Indian.

That's all I wanted to get through to you.

 

[TOPGUN]

Mr stone may i ask wat are u by race boss? and i mean backround if u dont mnd sharing with us thx most kind sir.

 

[Munir]

I understand what you are saying, but you don't understand what I am saying.

I don't care about Pakistani and Indian members killing each other on this forum about the classification of fighter jets.

I am simply making a point that any changes on the wikipedia website can be done by anyone, not necessary an Indian.

That's all I wanted to get through to you.

Here you have 1 billion Indians and 150 million Pakistani... Here you have gigantic IT India and a small Pakistani IT... What chance is that LCA is edited by non Indians? If it was then we would say a much faster a failed plane.

 

[mohammadkhan70]

Are we receiving any JF 17's in 2008?

 

[Black Stone]

Here you have 1 billion Indians and 150 million Pakistani... Here you have gigantic IT India and a small Pakistani IT... What chance is that LCA is edited by non Indians? If it was then we would say a much faster a failed plane.

Munir, you don't understand the point here.

Numbers doesn't matter in this situation.
Chances doesn't matter in this situation.

It is principle.

The situation is very simple...

A negative change has been made on wikipedia, because it is a negative edit, you assume it is a Indians doing.

My point is that anyone can edit the pages...not necessary an Indian. Now, I am not saying it is not an Indian, period. It could be and it might not be. So the bottom line is, it could be anyone.

That is my point.

 

[Black Stone]

Mr stone may i ask wat are u by race boss? and i mean backround if u dont mnd sharing with us thx most kind sir.

My background is not important or related to what I have posted if that is what you are trying to prove.

If you disagree with what I have written, then you are welcome to debate my points.

 

[TOPGUN]

Stone i never said anything was related just a friendly question? so are u willing to answer the question ? iam not debating anything with u boss????

 

[Luftwaffe]

Good evening My name is Fahd, currently in Canada after reading much on this forum i've decided to join and learned alot though i know my self much too lol.
Glad there are guys with brains here too well anyways nice to meet ya all. Asaalam Alikum.

Ok i'm forum has gone advance on this topic of JF-17 but still we didn't discuss the beginning of JF-17 project at all what is going on i'm so confused are we making a fighter jet or just a replacement car for our 1980 toyota car with cng fitted suzuki alto? you know what i mean which such massive investment on this large scale pr oject should we know invest more???

This is my opinion and my suggestions which might not be heard or accepted by some and might be acceptable or feasible to most. I think Pakistan air force has taken a great step in development of JF-17 with china to replace its Mirages and F-7 fighters that are already old. What I didn’t understand and bothers be so much that why Pakistan DID not give it the aerodynamics of F-16. I think this is one of the biggest blunders of Pakistan Air Force and I think they are somehow guilty for why initially during project they did not redesign the JF-17 equally to the size of F-16. To me it might have taken atleast less than a million dollars more to give JF-17 equal size and most of the shape like f-16 like tail and wings canopy with FA/18 like canards making it potentially lethal machine. Who cares what Americans think do you? well if you than be afraid sit in the dark wear bangles. We know and knew that future JF-17 would be with 50 percent more composite material later on as is now standard for all fighter jets keeping it lighter. Had Pakistan Air Force kept that in mind it would have given Pakistan an edge over Indian LCA, Mig 29s and mirages and later on a production line of 400 fighters would ensure no need for F-16 or mirages in future and would have easily compete in world market for a cheap efficient fighter jets for many airforces who can’t buy expensive fighter jets. I think if air forces who are interested in buying JF-17 for 20 million dollars apiece might have been ready to pay 24 million dollars for this JF-17 which would have been equal in size to F-16 carrying equal payloads with DSI intakes better canards like FA-18. Engine as we know later on we are going to switch to Chinese engines that might be WS-10A or WS-12/13 which ever would it be would be atleast have longer life than the Russian engines and thrust producing mach 2.0 this is all we need. I’m really surprised that where Pakistan has invested so much why did not Pakistan invested a 100 million dollars more to a large scale project with a year more making JF-17 a more lethal machine than ever. It strikes my mind and bothers me so much. I still think Pakistan should invest 100 million dollars more and the next batches after the first 50 should be redesigned and bring it on par with F-16 design to give it more agility and manoeuvrability as well and for more payload IT’S NOT TOO LATE. Neither am I serving in Air Force nor am I an engineer but it’s a common sense where one invests millions of dollars on a mass scale project another 100 million would do good rather than failure. The reasons i explained another 100 million investment for redesign and upgrade would have done much better with high rate and chances that much larger orders from many countries could have been expected. Now that Pakistani rupee is devalued our economy is in toilet and will be for atleast next so many hears thanks to MR. 10% and IMF.
Ok some of you are going to brawl why am I speaking like that, my friends lets not do what failed nations did look at gripen development team, look at eurofighter development team and look at American fighters development teams, they all have one thing in common when they invest time and money they invest it for long term and they make sure the first development cycle cover 12 years atleast before it is given a massive upgrades. Now don’t tell me Pakistan has less fianaces if Pakistan had less finances they should totally have not invested in this project. Now that investment has been made to such a large scale why not invest a 100 million more make the design more lethal. Why not make it on par with American F-16 that is the only world standard fighter jet on basis of which third world can make its own fighter jets. Look at LAVI project and than J-10 and even LCA has a cross breed of Mirages and inputs of F-16. Thought i agree its more of mirage than f-16 but the developers have in mind mini F-16. On this forum many are seniors and I would like to have their input and suggestions and agree or not agree statements as well where ever I am wrong correct me I am open minded and really appreciate many of you on this forum who are knowledgeable, as well negative ones can throw their comments as well I don’t mind it doesn’t harm me and it certainly will make forum more interesting. By saying that JF-17 project is halfly failure is not in terms of technical but in terms of design big project not halfly lol . If you are investing big atleast come up with a big plane to challenge your opponent who is massively upgrading its air force bring something that is if not on par with f-16 like tech atleast can demolish most of the crap out of its opponent. With our better designed JF-17 we easily can throw those flying coffins, oldie MIG 23/MIG27, and mirage 2000 as well as Mig 29’s. You ppl do agree with me that the Pakistani version of JF-17 will cost 25 million dollars at the most with a redesign etc it would cost how much? $27M/$29M maximum. Well mates its better to spend 3-4 million dollars more than spending nothing and bringing a fighter jet that can’t be called a work horse but a replacement. F-16 will still be the work horse of Pakistan Air Force after which comes JF-17 even if its numbers are many fold, Agree with me. Many of you will say well after 50 jets we will redesign the jet and do many things to it, well mate if not now forgot about later don’t play 50 years old tactics in new millennium it doesn’t apply these days. As I told you what Europeans and Americans have been doing for the past couple of decades that what we need to do start project and right from the start keep it advance. Again if you’re gonna say financial burden than its going to be hard to catch up with *********. I apologize if some of you didn’t like what I posted but it does make sense whatever i’m saying.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Sorry guys for the spell mistakes been typing in the dark.. ...c ya laters.